Senators warned of terrorist attack on US by July

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Probably a very ideological take on this, but when do Western nations transform the basis of what we stand for to Muslim nations as a means to thwart terrorist attacks?

Could you clarify what you mean here? There's a lot of different ways to read this and I'm not sure precisely what you mean. Specifically, what do you mean by "transform the basis of what we stand for..."

Cheers
Aj

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Could you clarify what you mean here? There's a lot of different ways to read this and I'm not sure precisely what you mean. Specifically, what do you mean by "transform the basis of what we stand for..."

Cheers
Aj

You bet!

In saying "transform the basis of what we stand for...", I am speaking to the long-term negative, anti-Muslim stance of western nations perceived (and, to me, often, rightly so) by the Muslim world. Our lack of knowledge and down right refusal to become educated about Muslim life and religious perspectives feeds into so much of what fundamentalist Muslim terrorist organizations use to promote strikes agains us and many other western nations.

I in no way can accept the sexist nature of Muslim findamentalism, but also know that we cannot (and should not) be involved in trying to change belief systems of others or their social and political systems.

I honestly feel that in order to get to a place in which we can in part, thwart attacks, respect, knowledge and diplomacy must be utilzed. Having world religion curriculum in our schools is essential in order to combat stereotyping and hatred of Muslims (and other groups, worldwide). Community outreach is essential.

I do believe that we live in a dangerous world concerning terrorism and that taking steps with technology and intelligence gathering is critical. I just don't believe this is the entire answer.

I am riminded of this almost daily as I shop and do other business with Muslim businesses around me (and those with Muslim employees) and witness the obvious hatred of some of the other customers.

[Bob]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Probably a very ideological take on this, but when do Western nations transform the basis of what we stand for to Muslim nations as a means to thwart terrorist attacks?

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

You bet!

In saying "transform the basis of what we stand for...", I am speaking to the long-term negative, anti-Muslim stance of western nations perceived (and, to me, often, rightly so) by the Muslim world. Our lack of knowledge and down right refusal to become educated about Muslim life and religious perspectives feeds into so much of what fundamentalist Muslim terrorist organizations use to promote strikes agains us and many other western nations.

This isn't the basis of what Al-Qaeda and other fundamentalist Muslims are angry about. The root cause is ultimately Israel and our inital and ongoing support of that state.

"In 1998, Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri co-signed a fatwa in the name of the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders which declared the killing of North Americans and their allies an "individual duty for every Muslim" to "liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem) and the holy mosque (in Mecca) from their grip"."

This, of course, is the Reason That We Dare Not Name. The creation of the state of Israel in 1947 left thousands of Palestinians homeless, stateless, wounded, and dead. This has continued to the present day. They (and many other Arabs/Muslims) are very very angry about the whole Israel thing, and they are very very angry with us for being their staunchest ally.

Of course, this is all terribly oversimplified. Since 9/11, our entry into Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan, Abu Graib, Guantanamo, et al, has given the average Muslim any number of things to be outraged by, without even taking Israel into consideration.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

You bet!

In saying "transform the basis of what we stand for...", I am speaking to the long-term negative, anti-Muslim stance of western nations perceived (and, to me, often, rightly so) by the Muslim world. Our lack of knowledge and down right refusal to become educated about Muslim life and religious perspectives feeds into so much of what fundamentalist Muslim terrorist organizations use to promote strikes agains us and many other western nations.

I agree in part. Our ignorance of the Muslim world is disconcerting. However, I also think that there's a trap that we could unknowingly stumble upon. I read Salman Rushdie's "The Satanic Verses" because I was curious what he could have said that would make someone put out a fatwa on him. While the book is irreverent there was nothing in there worthy of him having a death sentence put on his head. I did not see the Van Gogh movie that got him murdered in the street but all he did was make a movie about honor killings. And then, of course, there's been the various rows about cartoons showing the Prophet Mohammed. We should be very careful that we do not let others cow us into abandoning a core value.

I in no way can accept the sexist nature of Muslim findamentalism, but also know that we cannot (and should not) be involved in trying to change belief systems of others or their social and political systems.

I have to split the difference with you here. I think we have to be prepared to say "this is wrong, I don't care that it's a different culture but mutilating the genitals of young girls is wrong, full-stop". I think we MUST be prepared to do this and it concerns me that perhaps, we are not and, quite honestly, it scares me and makes me a little sad. Can you imagine, for instance, someone saying that Jim Crow was just part of Southern Culture and that while they are glad they don't have to live under that system in, say, Boston we cannot and should not be involved in trying to change that belief system? I can. I can very well imagine it and imagine how different my life could have been. That is why, although I may be called a Western Imperialist for this, I believe that there ARE truly universal human rights and that HUMAN rights trump CULTURES every time. So if some culture X engages in some behavior Y that, if my own culture did the same thing I would be out screaming in the streets (think honor killing, think female genital mutilation), then to be at all consistent I must condemn it in that other culture and take the heat that someone may call me an imperialist. That doesn't mean we invade other nations over their cultural practices but it *does* mean that don't make apologies for it either.

I honestly feel that in order to get to a place in which we can in part, thwart attacks, respect, knowledge and diplomacy must be utilzed. Having world religion curriculum in our schools is essential in order to combat stereotyping and hatred of Muslims (and other groups, worldwide). Community outreach is essential.

I think that will work for the people who aren't interested in attacking us. I think it might even dissuade some people from joining the camp of those who want to attack us. I don't think it will do *anything* for the people who already want to attack us.

I do believe that we live in a dangerous world concerning terrorism and that taking steps with technology and intelligence gathering is critical. I just don't believe this is the entire answer.

Here I would agree. It's not the entire answer but we should be prepared for those situations where it *is* the answer and when it is, we should admit that it will be messy, ugly and painful.

I am riminded of this almost daily as I shop and do other business with Muslim businesses around me (and those with Muslim employees) and witness the obvious hatred of some of the other customers.

I would agree with you again although, honestly, I think that hatred of the West in the Muslim world has more to do with US foreign policy and with our rather libertine culture than with how individual Westerners treat individual Muslims in their midst.

Cheers
Aj

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I have to split the difference with you here. I think we have to be prepared to say "this is wrong, I don't care that it's a different culture but mutilating the genitals of young girls is wrong, full-stop". I think we MUST be prepared to do this and it concerns me that perhaps, we are not and, quite honestly, it scares me and makes me a little sad. Can you imagine, for instance, someone saying that Jim Crow was just part of Southern Culture and that while they are glad they don't have to live under that system in, say, Boston we cannot and should not be involved in trying to change that belief system? I can. I can very well imagine it and imagine how different my life could have been. That is why, although I may be called a Western Imperialist for this, I believe that there ARE truly universal human rights and that HUMAN rights trump CULTURES every time. So if some culture X engages in some behavior Y that, if my own culture did the same thing I would be out screaming in the streets (think honor killing, think female genital mutilation), then to be at all consistent I must condemn it in that other culture and take the heat that someone may call me an imperialist. That doesn't mean we invade other nations over their cultural practices but it *does* mean that don't make apologies for it either.

This analogy (Jim Crow), does bring me to another level with this.

I think that will work for the people who aren't interested in attacking us. I think it might even dissuade some people from joining the camp of those who want to attack us. I don't think it will do *anything* for the people who already want to attack us.

And I think what you said earlier about no promises of an enemy (used loosly) being stupid or insane applies.



Here I would agree. It's not the entire answer but we should be prepared for those situations where it *is* the answer and when it is, we should admit that it will be messy, ugly and painful.



I would agree with you again although, honestly, I think that hatred of the West in the Muslim world has more to do with US foreign policy and with our rather libertine culture than with how individual Westerners treat individual Muslims in their midst.

Cheers
Aj

Yes, good distinction.

There are so many new posts that go at the subject, I need to go back over all of them. A lot to digest ... a multi-faceted subject. Complex, to say the least! I appreciate all of the views being expressed.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Well we saw the NYC car bomb stopped - thanks to the street vendor. Do you see an imminent attack coming in July?