"Science" textbook for Christian schools can't even explain electricity

[SecretAgentMa'am]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Okay, cool. I must have misunderstood you then. I thought everybody HAD to go. I'm glad to hear that they don't.

If you register for "release time" then you *have* to go to seminary during that period, but release time is not required, it's an elective.

[tapu]

Originally Posted by betenoire

ETA - I actually want to know, during that hour (or whatever a day) that kids are in religion class anywhere in North America - what education are they missing out on that non-religious schools use that hour for?

"Study Hall." Seriously. I would be quite surprised if the schools you reference have Study Hall.

[tapu]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

The problem becomes when kids educated in these schools either leave the warm womb of Christian education and suddenly have to sit in a science class where actual science is being taught OR they wind up going to an evangelical university and then get out and only then have to actually deal with people who didn't have the same education. Then you wind up with adults who are, for any practical definition, scientifically illiterate.

We really need a rethink of educational standards in this nation. We are too large, too powerful and have altogether too much technological sophistication at our disposal to have any significant portion of our society so dramatically illiterate about science. We are the *only* major industrialized nation where denial of climate change is in the least bit intellectually respectable. We are also the only major industrialized nation where denial of evolution is in the least bit respectable.

We desperately need national science standards for students k - 12 and, quite honestly, I would like to see the universities and colleges require a full year of physics, chemistry and biology regardless of major but that's probably a pipe dream.

Cheers
Aj

So... where do you come down on freedom of religion?

[Cin]

I don't think you have to go to a Christian school to be effected by what is going on in the US right now. Education was never all that educational but it seems like it's getting kind of scary.

I don’t know about now but when I went to school they really had odd maps and taught weird stuff. Granted I really didn’t go that much, but still I managed to soak up some of the stuff. I remember how surprised I was when as an adult I saw a map that showed the actual size of countries. I thought they were all tiny and the U.S. was gigantic.

I remember being told things like Newton discovered gravity when an apple hit him on the head and Columbus’ whole trip was about proving the earth was round. In science I learned that plants get their food directly from soil and water is not a good conductor of electricity (which is technically true but I think further explanation is needed). Also I found out that Ben Franklin flew a kite with a key tied on the end in a lightening storm so he could discover electricity (I remember thinking if he did that he would more likely discover that human flesh smelled like pork).

I could cite more dubious or just plain wrong stuff that they taught in schools back in the day but I suppose it doesn’t matter much because while inaccurate and US-centric it really wasn’t terribly harmful. I think what is going on now is much different. Scary really. Certain political and religious fractions of the country seem to be trying to control the information that is taught in schools.

They have a rather different agenda than the old let’s keep it easy for the kids and tell them the primary colors are red, yellow and blue instead of cyan, yellow and magenta cause really what more do they need to mix with and let’s not get too political and upset the kids with too much reality so we’ll tell them the civil war was about freeing the slaves and other various misinformation with a side order of partial truths. While pretty distressing it’s not as dangerous as what we are seeing at this time in history. Now it’s about teaching completely incorrect information to promote a religious/political agenda.

I read a couple of articles today informing me that an educational program called “Building Fluency Through Practice and Performance” is promoting socialism. It has a section called The Promise of America that breaks down the preamble and interprets it thus

-that people’s basic needs must be met in a country

-that labor laws ensure that people work in safe environments and that they are paid fairly for the work they do

-that needs for housing, education, transportation and health care are overseen by our government system.

I can understand not agreeing with that interpretation of the preamble, but the articles I’ve read make it sound like a terrible crime has been committed. People are horrified that kids are learning to read by saying labor laws ensure that people work in safe environments and that they are paid fairly for the work they do. I mean seriously, is that a horrible thing? Is it controversial? Apparently work safety and fair wages is now the definition of socialism. I guess this is the direction we are heading. It’s okay to teach kids that Columbus’ voyage was about trying to prove the world wasn’t flat when it was pretty common knowledge by 400 BC it was round. But don’t let them think their government should be responsible for protecting its citizens with Marxist ideas like labor laws.

[DapperButch]

dreadgeek,

I kind of jumped the gun, as there has been one or two places where you did make it clear that it was only some private, Christian schools. I apologize. I like the word some for obvious reasons: no group likes sweeping generalizations. That is why we say "some transmen", "some lesbians", "some caucasians", etc. The number of Protestant denominations is quite large and there are some radically different views within them. Subsequently, the Christian schools can be very different from each other, including the curriculum. I am certain that a book written by anyone from Bob Jones University would never make it into my nephews' school(s).

Certainly a parent can look at the curriculum, the average SAT/ATC scores of graduates, the percentage of graduates going to 4 year colleges and which colleges, etc. Parents can alos look at the accreditations various schools have. My older nephew's school has a waiting list a mile long. Since it is an "open" Christian school, there is no expectation that everyone who attends the school hold the same beliefs (or be a "Christian"). My sister does like that her son is exposed to different types of people and different types of thinkers.

One of the concerns that my sister/brother in-law had was that if their kids went to Chrisitian schools that they would get "shell shocked" when they went to college since they would have lived in a cocoon their entire lives up until that point. They had actually planned to send their kids to either a public or private non religious high school (if they were in Christian schools for grades k-8), so that this wouldn't happen to them, as friends had told my sister/her husband that this is what happened to them after being encased in a womb prior to college.

In terms of your concern for the kids not learning what they need to be learning like in the schools in the OP, I hear you. It is a crime really. They are doing a great disservice to the kids if they want to continue their education. They will have to go so far backwards in order to learn what they should have learned to begin with, it will be ridiculous. And how will they ever do well on their SATs?

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by tapu

So... where do you come down on freedom of religion?

I'm strongly in favor of people having very large ranges of latitude to practice whatever religion they prefer. I see very few areas where government has a legitimate reason to restrict religious practice. However, there is a non-trivial difference between letting religion be and granting religious beliefs the status of 'alternative truth' when it comes to questions about curriculum in public schools. Letting schools off the hook, if you will, because the most current science contradicts this or that deeply held belief sets up those religious belief as having an alternative truth that must be treated as being as equally probable when they simply are not. This sets up a great deal of confusion for people and hamstrings them in the long run.

It is imply not true that the Young Earth Creationist account of the origins of the Universe, the planet and the history of life on this planet is a viable alternative to the standard scientific account. The YEC account gets it wrong all over the place so anyone who learns the YEC account *as if it were a scientific theory* is, for all practical purposes, shut out of the mainstream of large amounts of science. We do neither them nor ourselves any favors pretending that it is any other way. I don't see this as being properly a question of religious freedom anymore than I would if some sect or another taught that pi was *exactly* 3.0 or that the angles of a triangle always add up to 100 degrees. No one would argue that any church-run school had the right to teach students that, for instance, men walked on the moon in 1869 instead of 1969 or that the Earth was at the center of the solar system. I see no reason to draw a hedge around certain scientific questions and allow church-run schools to get a pass on any subject just because it may conflict with their religious doctrines.

Cheers
Aj

[tapu]

I think private religious schools have the right to teach anything they want to, so long as they also meet state curriculum standards or Common Core, whichever in effect. That's why they call them "private, religious, schools."

[Cin]

Originally Posted by tapu

I think private religious schools have the right to teach anything they want to, so long as they also meet state curriculum standards or Common Core, whichever in effect. That's why they call them "private, religious, schools."

I would think that teaching kids incorrect information would go against the mission statement of Common Core State Standards. But I guess if these kids go to religious universities then the fact that they have been given wrong information won't hamper them much. I guess. It's a puzzler why anyone would want to hobble their kids but I imagine the religious parents don't see it that way. And I guess as long as people in the US continue to have a percentage of people who believe evolution is incorrect and that global climate change isn't happening, etc., it won't matter in the long run anyway. A study done found that 1/3 of Americans reject evolution and 14% believe evolution is "definitely true" while more than 80% of Europeans accept the concept of evolution as true. The only country included in the study that rejected evolution more consistently than the US was Turkey. But I guess that's the price we all pay for religious freedom. There is no other alternative. Look at the Catholic Church it took them over 200 years to stop believers from accepting the reality that the earth revolves around the sun and almost another 200 to pardon Galileo.

[tapu]

Oh, we teach kids plenty of incorrect information. And some would argue it isn't incorrect at all. The education system is not perfect.

And, allowing alternative belief systems to be taught in private religions schools is the price we pay for freedom of religion; matter of fact, it is the essence of it.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

I would think that teaching kids incorrect information would go against the mission statement of Common Core State Standards. But I guess if these kids go to religious universities then the fact that they have been given wrong information won't hamper them much. I guess. It's a puzzler why anyone would want to hobble their kids but I imagine the religious parents don't see it that way. And I guess as long as people in the US continue to have a percentage of people who believe evolution is incorrect and that global climate change isn't happening, etc., it won't matter in the long run anyway. A study done found that 1/3 of Americans reject evolution and 14% believe evolution is "definitely true" while more than 80% of Europeans accept the concept of evolution as true. The only country included in the study that rejected evolution more consistently than the US was Turkey. But I guess that's the price we all pay for religious freedom. There is no other alternative. Look at the Catholic Church it took them over 200 years to stop believers from accepting the reality that the earth revolves around the sun and almost another 200 to pardon Galileo.

Actually, some still believe that

Originally Posted by tapu

Oh, we teach kids plenty of incorrect information. And some would argue it isn't incorrect at all. The education system is not perfect.

And, allowing alternative belief systems to be taught in private religions schools is the price we pay for freedom of religion; matter of fact, it is the essence of it.

It would be great if they taught it in comparison but they don't. While not all religious schools use a book like this, the ones who do are likely to only provide this book. And that does a huge disservice.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Linus

Actually, some still believe that

LOL. What can you say to that? I will add to the Dawkins quote that i have for my signature that apparently even in the face of over whelming, even indisputable evidence to the contrary.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by tapu

"Study Hall." Seriously. I would be quite surprised if the schools you reference have Study Hall.

My school did not have study hall, and I went to public school my whole life. I studied at home.

Originally Posted by Linus

It would be great if they taught it in comparison but they don't.

Speaking of teaching in comparison. My highschool had a pretty cool 12th grade english class. I forget what exactly it was called (even though I took it!) but it was for studying and comparing/contrasting various religious texts with a pretty big focus on some of the common mythologies between them. (Like lots of religions had a big flood, etc). It was a super neat class and I'm glad I took it.

I did my final paper on Wicca.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by tapu

Oh, we teach kids plenty of incorrect information. And some would argue it isn't incorrect at all. The education system is not perfect.

And, allowing alternative belief systems to be taught in private religions schools is the price we pay for freedom of religion; matter of fact, it is the essence of it.

I'm sorry my friend, I have to disagree here. In fact, I think the fact that we have taken this attitude, as a culture, is part of why I think we are in the political position we are today.

To illustrate, consider the following statements all of which are manifestly false but are still held by people adhering to alternative belief systems.

1) The Holocaust never happened. It is something that Jews cooked up in order to get sympathy so that they could start the nation of Israel. Even if there *were* executions, there's no way it was anywhere near 6 million people.

2) Humans have never walked on the moon. It is physically impossible to build a machine that can escape Earth's gravity enough to get to the moon, much less carry three human beings back and forth safely. If nothing else, the cosmic rays would have cooked them like hot dogs in a microwave.

3) The Earth, the solar system and the Universe are all ~6,000 years old. They were all called into being during a single act of creation which took place over a week. This action was initiated and controlled, start to finish, by a singular divine entity. Any information that might appear to contradict this story is either not correct, by definition, and was either made up out of whole cloth, misinterpreted, or planted either by God or some other supernatural entity to test the faith of humanity.

People *believe* all of these things. They are all wrong. There are no sane interpretations of *this* world (other worlds in a multiverse, maybe) where any of the three statements are correct. Does someone have a right to believe any of those things? Absolutely. Do they have the right to teach their children these things in the home? Yes. Does that burden them with the problem of explaining why the teacher at school taught something else? Unfortunately, yes it does but that actually can't be helped. It can't be helped, *unless* the rest of us are prepared to pretend that there are perfectly valid alternative explanations that are being rejected not for reasons having to do with evidence but because of some completely arbitrary factor. In other words, unless the rest of us are prepared to enable the willful misleading of students in classrooms.

This is why I would like to see us come up with *national* scientific standards. I do not think you should be able to graduate from high school in a technologically advanced country if you cannot articulate certain very general scientific ideas. I do not think this is a matter of respecting religious freedom. If an adult couldn't, for instance, do the problem 3+2=5 or count by ten to 100 we would not say that person knew math. We would not say that someone who didn't understand that, for instance, WW II happened in the 20th century and not the 19th knew history. I don't see why to treat scientific subjects differently just because people might have religious objections to this or that scientific idea.

Cheers
Aj

[little_ms_sunshyne]

As the head of a science department and a science teacher This saddens me, puzzles me, frustrates me, infuriates me etc etc etc etc


Kids are amazing! They are so open to knowledge and are ready to develop their own thoughts and ideas...WHY WHY WHY limit them!!!!

I think I may need to be a sub for the day! lol

[Martina]

i don't know much about this, but my understanding is that there is no regulation of private schools. No public accreditation process. i could be wrong.

i think accountability is just can the kids pass the SAT at the end. i don't know.

The fact is that anybody can home school, and there is no oversight. You can leave your kid completely illiterate if you choose, and there will be no legal consequence.

There are accreditation bodies, but isn't membership voluntary?

[Martina]

In my school people have study skills classes. It's not the same as study hall, but it can function that way for many kids.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by little_ms_sunshyne

As the head of a science department and a science teacher This saddens me, puzzles me, frustrates me, infuriates me etc etc etc etc


Kids are amazing! They are so open to knowledge and are ready to develop their own thoughts and ideas...WHY WHY WHY limit them!!!!

I think I may need to be a sub for the day! lol

Which part do you find saddening, puzzling, frustrating or infuriating?

Cheers
Aj

[tapu]

Excellent points being made. I want to give some more thought to all this, but meanwhile here is a very specific and current perspective on what's happening wrt science standards and requirements in Massachusetts--really the hotbed of high-stakes testing in education today.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ed...cause_of_mcas/

This opinion piece points out the minority, low-income, and urban factors in not passing the MCAS (standards test), argues for dropping the MCAS science requirement for graduation, and brings out the fact that private and religious schools get a pass on this.

This veers a bit off the topic in its totality, but also sheds light on some points of discussion here. As a side note: I managed production of the MCAS 2010 and 2011. The politics are searing.

[Cin]

To me it makes perfect sense to hold students of public schools to the same standards as those attending private or religious schools. So right now that can be defined as students who meet all other requirements, the ones that will get a private school student a diploma, should also get a diploma and an MCAS diploma should be given to those who pass the MCAS test. Though this is really just a band-aid. To me the real value in these tests is they will tell us exactly how well we are actually educating our youth. I guess we have the answer to that. Effort needs to be made to educate young people so that all kids can pass standard tests across the country.

I suppose that’s pie in the sky stuff, but seriously if we can accomplish all the phenomenally impressive stuff we manage like making the world’s tiniest laser, 1000 times smaller than the width of a hair, just 44 nanometers across, hell if we can measure in nanometers, if we can discover that sticky tape can produce x-rays, if we can figure out that a black hole (the one true flying spaghetti monster god) eats planets turning them into it’s own special kind of pasta, if we can discover an enzyme that can convert any type of blood into type O, and on and on, why can’t we find a way to educate our youth. I mean how hard is that compared to cloning rhesus monkeys? We can destroy the financial stability of the world with unique and infinitely complicated financial weapons of mass destruction. If the minds that can come up with a demonic piece of work like derivatives would, just for a little while, focus on doing good, I have to believe they could come up with a plan to actually educate our youth.

Not that I am saying the scientific or financial communities should be responsible for improving education. What I am saying is that we are incredibly innovative and amazingly creative in a myriad of ways. Let’s make one of those ways that we are incredibly innovative and creative about finding ideas that work to educate our youth. MCATS tell us that we are not all that successful, but they don’t tell us how to get successful. And without leveling the playing field, once again it is those people least able to handle any more on their plate, who take the hit.

Poor urban youth are the victims of this type of inequity. And really don’t they have enough inequity already? I use poor as the operative word, although I have no doubt the largest percentage of the kids affected are minorities. The causality or common link for most is, I believe, a lack of money. People who have enough money can send their kids to a private school.

I am from Massachusetts and had first hand experience as a poor urban youth with the public school system. Even more recently I lived with a women and her three kids in Mattapan, a part of Boston. Her two boys managed to go to high school in Quincy by using their father’s address. However, when it came to her youngest, her father moved out of Quincy in her senior year. And it was common knowledge she lived with her mother in Boston. I guess the school district employs someone to follow kids around who are suspected of going to school in one district but living in another. They followed A. home and came back early in the morning and followed A. and I as I took her to school in the mornings on my way to work. Then they told her she needed to go to school in Boston. A’s mother allowed her to live in Quincy with the parents of a girlfriend so she could finish her senior year in Quincy. And the Quincy public school department was kind enough to let her finish out her senior year in Quincy. The school departments try very hard to stop people from sending their kids to public schools not in their district. And parents keep trying to find inventive ways to send their kids to schools they deem better to give their kids all the advantages they are able. They don’t have many options because without the resources they cannot send their kids to private schools. After trying to get them into a public school they think is better, they really have no options. Yet you cannot send your children to whatever public school you think is better. That is no answer. We need to invest the money to make all schools safe places to get good educations.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by tapu

Excellent points being made. I want to give some more thought to all this, but meanwhile here is a very specific and current perspective on what's happening wrt science standards and requirements in Massachusetts--really the hotbed of high-stakes testing in education today.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ed...cause_of_mcas/

This opinion piece points out the minority, low-income, and urban factors in not passing the MCAS (standards test), argues for dropping the MCAS science requirement for graduation, and brings out the fact that private and religious schools get a pass on this.

This veers a bit off the topic in its totality, but also sheds light on some points of discussion here. As a side note: I managed production of the MCAS 2010 and 2011. The politics are searing.

Really interesting tapu. Where do you stand on the issue (yes, I am aware that you managed production of the 2010 and 2011, but I am not going to assume you believe kids should have to pass it in order to receive a diploma)?

Here adults who dropped out of high school can later take a test to receive their GED in place of a diploma, but they also now have something where they can now get a hisgh school diploma as an adult (however I do not know the requirements for that). What are the option in Massachusetts for returning students?