"Science" textbook for Christian schools can't even explain electricity

[tapu]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

The problem becomes when kids educated in these schools either leave the warm womb of Christian education and suddenly have to sit in a science class where actual science is being taught OR they wind up going to an evangelical university and then get out and only then have to actually deal with people who didn't have the same education. Then you wind up with adults who are, for any practical definition, scientifically illiterate.

We really need a rethink of educational standards in this nation. We are too large, too powerful and have altogether too much technological sophistication at our disposal to have any significant portion of our society so dramatically illiterate about science. We are the *only* major industrialized nation where denial of climate change is in the least bit intellectually respectable. We are also the only major industrialized nation where denial of evolution is in the least bit respectable.

We desperately need national science standards for students k - 12 and, quite honestly, I would like to see the universities and colleges require a full year of physics, chemistry and biology regardless of major but that's probably a pipe dream.

Cheers
Aj

So... where do you come down on freedom of religion?

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by tapu

So... where do you come down on freedom of religion?

I'm strongly in favor of people having very large ranges of latitude to practice whatever religion they prefer. I see very few areas where government has a legitimate reason to restrict religious practice. However, there is a non-trivial difference between letting religion be and granting religious beliefs the status of 'alternative truth' when it comes to questions about curriculum in public schools. Letting schools off the hook, if you will, because the most current science contradicts this or that deeply held belief sets up those religious belief as having an alternative truth that must be treated as being as equally probable when they simply are not. This sets up a great deal of confusion for people and hamstrings them in the long run.

It is imply not true that the Young Earth Creationist account of the origins of the Universe, the planet and the history of life on this planet is a viable alternative to the standard scientific account. The YEC account gets it wrong all over the place so anyone who learns the YEC account *as if it were a scientific theory* is, for all practical purposes, shut out of the mainstream of large amounts of science. We do neither them nor ourselves any favors pretending that it is any other way. I don't see this as being properly a question of religious freedom anymore than I would if some sect or another taught that pi was *exactly* 3.0 or that the angles of a triangle always add up to 100 degrees. No one would argue that any church-run school had the right to teach students that, for instance, men walked on the moon in 1869 instead of 1969 or that the Earth was at the center of the solar system. I see no reason to draw a hedge around certain scientific questions and allow church-run schools to get a pass on any subject just because it may conflict with their religious doctrines.

Cheers
Aj

[tapu]

I think private religious schools have the right to teach anything they want to, so long as they also meet state curriculum standards or Common Core, whichever in effect. That's why they call them "private, religious, schools."

[Cin]

Originally Posted by tapu

I think private religious schools have the right to teach anything they want to, so long as they also meet state curriculum standards or Common Core, whichever in effect. That's why they call them "private, religious, schools."

I would think that teaching kids incorrect information would go against the mission statement of Common Core State Standards. But I guess if these kids go to religious universities then the fact that they have been given wrong information won't hamper them much. I guess. It's a puzzler why anyone would want to hobble their kids but I imagine the religious parents don't see it that way. And I guess as long as people in the US continue to have a percentage of people who believe evolution is incorrect and that global climate change isn't happening, etc., it won't matter in the long run anyway. A study done found that 1/3 of Americans reject evolution and 14% believe evolution is "definitely true" while more than 80% of Europeans accept the concept of evolution as true. The only country included in the study that rejected evolution more consistently than the US was Turkey. But I guess that's the price we all pay for religious freedom. There is no other alternative. Look at the Catholic Church it took them over 200 years to stop believers from accepting the reality that the earth revolves around the sun and almost another 200 to pardon Galileo.

[tapu]

Oh, we teach kids plenty of incorrect information. And some would argue it isn't incorrect at all. The education system is not perfect.

And, allowing alternative belief systems to be taught in private religions schools is the price we pay for freedom of religion; matter of fact, it is the essence of it.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

I would think that teaching kids incorrect information would go against the mission statement of Common Core State Standards. But I guess if these kids go to religious universities then the fact that they have been given wrong information won't hamper them much. I guess. It's a puzzler why anyone would want to hobble their kids but I imagine the religious parents don't see it that way. And I guess as long as people in the US continue to have a percentage of people who believe evolution is incorrect and that global climate change isn't happening, etc., it won't matter in the long run anyway. A study done found that 1/3 of Americans reject evolution and 14% believe evolution is "definitely true" while more than 80% of Europeans accept the concept of evolution as true. The only country included in the study that rejected evolution more consistently than the US was Turkey. But I guess that's the price we all pay for religious freedom. There is no other alternative. Look at the Catholic Church it took them over 200 years to stop believers from accepting the reality that the earth revolves around the sun and almost another 200 to pardon Galileo.

Actually, some still believe that

Originally Posted by tapu

Oh, we teach kids plenty of incorrect information. And some would argue it isn't incorrect at all. The education system is not perfect.

And, allowing alternative belief systems to be taught in private religions schools is the price we pay for freedom of religion; matter of fact, it is the essence of it.

It would be great if they taught it in comparison but they don't. While not all religious schools use a book like this, the ones who do are likely to only provide this book. And that does a huge disservice.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Linus

Actually, some still believe that

LOL. What can you say to that? I will add to the Dawkins quote that i have for my signature that apparently even in the face of over whelming, even indisputable evidence to the contrary.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by tapu

Oh, we teach kids plenty of incorrect information. And some would argue it isn't incorrect at all. The education system is not perfect.

And, allowing alternative belief systems to be taught in private religions schools is the price we pay for freedom of religion; matter of fact, it is the essence of it.

I'm sorry my friend, I have to disagree here. In fact, I think the fact that we have taken this attitude, as a culture, is part of why I think we are in the political position we are today.

To illustrate, consider the following statements all of which are manifestly false but are still held by people adhering to alternative belief systems.

1) The Holocaust never happened. It is something that Jews cooked up in order to get sympathy so that they could start the nation of Israel. Even if there *were* executions, there's no way it was anywhere near 6 million people.

2) Humans have never walked on the moon. It is physically impossible to build a machine that can escape Earth's gravity enough to get to the moon, much less carry three human beings back and forth safely. If nothing else, the cosmic rays would have cooked them like hot dogs in a microwave.

3) The Earth, the solar system and the Universe are all ~6,000 years old. They were all called into being during a single act of creation which took place over a week. This action was initiated and controlled, start to finish, by a singular divine entity. Any information that might appear to contradict this story is either not correct, by definition, and was either made up out of whole cloth, misinterpreted, or planted either by God or some other supernatural entity to test the faith of humanity.

People *believe* all of these things. They are all wrong. There are no sane interpretations of *this* world (other worlds in a multiverse, maybe) where any of the three statements are correct. Does someone have a right to believe any of those things? Absolutely. Do they have the right to teach their children these things in the home? Yes. Does that burden them with the problem of explaining why the teacher at school taught something else? Unfortunately, yes it does but that actually can't be helped. It can't be helped, *unless* the rest of us are prepared to pretend that there are perfectly valid alternative explanations that are being rejected not for reasons having to do with evidence but because of some completely arbitrary factor. In other words, unless the rest of us are prepared to enable the willful misleading of students in classrooms.

This is why I would like to see us come up with *national* scientific standards. I do not think you should be able to graduate from high school in a technologically advanced country if you cannot articulate certain very general scientific ideas. I do not think this is a matter of respecting religious freedom. If an adult couldn't, for instance, do the problem 3+2=5 or count by ten to 100 we would not say that person knew math. We would not say that someone who didn't understand that, for instance, WW II happened in the 20th century and not the 19th knew history. I don't see why to treat scientific subjects differently just because people might have religious objections to this or that scientific idea.

Cheers
Aj