The Femme Continuum: The "Highs" and "Lows" of Visibility

[Emmy]

This is a great discussion. I'm relatively newly out- about 3 years- so perhaps my perspective just stems from inexperience. I can honestly say, though, that I've never personally been made to feel inferior, or "not femme enough" by another femme, not once. The femmes I've met have been unfailingly gracious, welcoming me to the club

Online, I suppose I have seen a fair amount 'ewwww'-ing going on about any sort of sexual interest, on the part of either butches or femmes, that doesn't quite adhere to gender stereotypes. Perhaps, though, this is improving over time? I'm not certain of it, but I get the sense that maybe this was a bit more common a few years ago than it is today, thank goodness- probably thanks to folks' speaking up about it in threads like this.

[Beau]

I'm here to show support for all femmes of all flavors.

Yeah, cunnilingus got my attention.

But then, so does cock sucking.

Equal opportunity orgasms for all are wonderful. Stating that any sexual act is the province of gender is just "fucking" ridiculous.

[TenderKnight]

Hello!

Great thread (and yes, I actually did thread stalk someone here.. and found myself actually LEARNING something!). I just want to put in my experience, not as a femme, but as a transguy who knows and has loved many femmes, both as friends and as lovers..

I will admit that I still have a pretty binary brain when it comes to femmes and butches.. And I am going to use the term "butches" here, just because I don't want to have to type: butches/Stones/TG identified/transgender/transsexual people every other line.. That being said

When I first learned the term "butch" and "femme", I was 18 and I was in a chat room.. There were stereotypes all around and I was learned by other butches on how to treat a femme.. I was shown how a femme *should* behave and act and dress.. I ate it up and ran with it.. 14 years later, I am unlearning a good bit.. lol Not all of it, for sure, I mean, your partner should be shown respect, always.. But do I have to open the door everytime? No, not if it means it turns into a lil awkward moment when both of you are reaching for the door like it's a race.. lol This has happened..

I can't relate to femme invisablity, but I can relate to being a transguy and feeling like I am not accepted in the queer realm.. I actually have to out myself at times, which is interesting, to say the least.. I can also relate to being one of those butches that assumed that certain things are true about a woman because she is femme.. Guilty.

I was in a situation not too long ago where a femme mentioned using a strap on.. Not on me, per se, but just in general, and allll kinds of crap came up for me. Since that time, I have had a lot of time to think about this reaction.. Would it be diffrent if it were just a one night hook-up? Would it change if I were in a relationship with this woman? Why?

I don't have the answers for that, but I am going to try in the future to keep that experience and some of the things said in this thread in mind.. Thank you to those that have posted, I have enjoyed reading and will continue to quietly stalk this thread.. Thank you

-Tony

[blush]

One of the most offensive things for me(and it sounds like many other femmes in here too) is the long definitions of "what a femme is." Usually it's followed by the assessment of me as a femme.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Beau

I'm here to show support for all femmes of all flavors.

Yeah, cunnilingus got my attention.

But then, so does cock sucking.

Equal opportunity orgasms for all are wonderful. Stating that any sexual act is the province of gender is just "fucking" ridiculous.

Count me in on that support! How the hell did stuff like any sexual act is the province of gender get started, anyway!!! FeFruckSake... pun, intended!

OK, I'll shut-up and listen!

[Nat]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Me too and Mee too.

Exept sometimes I just like to spurt out exactly what all I like to do in bed and watch the green foam ooze from their ears.

I don't know anyone in person who has the green foam reaction

I do remember my talking to a close straight woman friend about my first experience strapping.

I was like, "OMG I cannot believe I didn't do that sooner, and I was so stressed about it, and then it was so natural and I had access to this part of myself I never knew existed and to a part of her that was so unbelievable and I just felt so *given to* in that moment."

My friend just said she never imagined that the f*cker would feel *given to* and that surprised her. She said as a f*ckee-only, she feels like she's stealing all the energy.

I don't really hang out with prudes though - maybe green foam is a biproduct of prudery? I talked to a femme friend just the other day about it, and even though her preferences don't run the same gamut mine do, she was charming and funny and insightful and fully accepting when the conversation turned for a few moments to sex.

[ravfem]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I love to participate in cunnulingus, I do, I have heard from my peers this makes me not so femme..

I say the hell with that..

oh and yes I said cunnulingus and no I have no gender preference when it comes down to it..

<cleaning gear on in case

i have to admit i buy into some "femme roles" as well as some "butch roles",
but oral sex has never been one of them! i mean, hello!!

What's gender/personal identity got to do with enjoying any form of sex?

i will admit that i personally have little experience with cunnulingus, mainly because the majority of my partners have been stone. But....i'm um....beginning to expand my horizons with Daddy, and omg the thought just sends me!! and i cannot believe i am admitting this for the world to see! i'm a prude, really.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Nat

I don't know anyone in person who has the green foam reaction

I do remember my talking to a close straight woman friend about my first experience strapping.

I was like, "OMG I cannot believe I didn't do that sooner, and I was so stressed about it, and then it was so natural and I had access to this part of myself I never knew existed and to a part of her that was so unbelievable and I just felt so *given to* in that moment."

My friend just said she never imagined that the f*cker would feel *given to* and that surprised her. She said as a f*ckee-only, she feels like she's stealing all the energy.

I don't really hang out with prudes though - maybe green foam is a biproduct of prudery? I talked to a femme friend just the other day about it, and even though her preferences don't run the same gamut mine do, she was charming and funny and insightful and fully accepting when the conversation turned for a few moments to sex.

For the record, I usually don't choose to hang out with prudes either, but when forced to...why not shock them?

None of my staright friends are prudes just people we sometimes meeet in the Queer community. And the people to whom I was refering would not see themselves as prudes, just very set in their gender stereotype ideas.

I feel somehow it is my duty to bust up some Femme stereotypes.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

For the record, I usually don't choose to hang out with prudes either, but when forced to...why not shock them?

None of my staright friends are prudes just people we sometimes meeet in the Queer community. And the people to whom I was refering would not see themselves as prudes, just very set in their gender stereotype ideas.

I feel somehow it is my duty to bust up some Femme stereotypes.

you do an excellent job of representing.

I realized I have rather prudish feelings when I encounter Christian fundamentalism. I had a lady tell me the other day that she feels sorry for anybody who doesn't believe in Jesus because god is going to torture us for 7 years before we burn in hell. And then last night in class some guy told me he was going to pray for me because I am not a Christian and I just got up and moved. So I guess I'm easily shocked in that way and kind of a prude in a way.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Nat

you do an excellent job of representing.

I realized I have rather prudish feelings when I encounter Christian fundamentalism. I had a lady tell me the other day that she feels sorry for anybody who doesn't believe in Jesus because god is going to torture us for 7 years before we burn in hell. And then last night in class some guy told me he was going to pray for me because I am not a Christian and I just got up and moved. So I guess I'm kindof a prude in a way.

Ummm, I don't think you are a prude, I think they are crazy. and, if we are dead and don't have a body how are we going to feel the torture and flames?

ehhhhhh.

Another thread?

[Nat]

yes - sorry my ADHD got the better of me. /derail

I saw the most beautiful femme today at the gas station. She was dressed up and well coifed and she actually was wearing a great pair of heels. She looked a little like duchess and when I saw her behind me in line, I thought, damn I wish I looked that good in the morning. She was radiating this sort of peace and power. I didn't know she was a femme until her gf came around the corner and it became obvious from their conversation.

Not only do I wish I were less invisible to queers, I wish other femmes were more visible to me. I need the femme-dar app installed in my brain.

I wanna say there's a gaydar app on the iPhone but I think I read somebody has already been gaybashed through it.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by Emmy

This is a great discussion. I'm relatively newly out- about 3 years- so perhaps my perspective just stems from inexperience. I can honestly say, though, that I've never personally been made to feel inferior, or "not femme enough" by another femme, not once. The femmes I've met have been unfailingly gracious, welcoming me to the club

Online, I suppose I have seen a fair amount 'ewwww'-ing going on about any sort of sexual interest, on the part of either butches or femmes, that doesn't quite adhere to gender stereotypes. Perhaps, though, this is improving over time? I'm not certain of it, but I get the sense that maybe this was a bit more common a few years ago than it is today, thank goodness- probably thanks to folks' speaking up about it in threads like this.

Interestingly enough, I have had little, if any, feedback from femmes that I am not "femme enough" or made to feel inferior in terms of my IDing as Femme...but I also appear very feminine and I have heard from friends who are not as femme appearing that they have had some crappy experiences.

I have felt competition from other femmes, in terms of attention from butches...and we all know how small the community is...I've seen some serious cat fights. Luckily I avoid that crap as much as possible.

I'd like to think I have really good boundaries and I try not to let the "femme enough" crap affect me, even if from afar.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

Interestingly enough, I have had little, if any, feedback from femmes that I am not "femme enough" or made to feel inferior in terms of my IDing as Femme...but I also appear very feminine and I have heard from friends who are not as femme appearing that they have had some crappy experiences.

I have felt competition from other femmes, in terms of attention from butches...and we all know how small the community is...I've seen some serious cat fights. Luckily I avoid that crap as much as possible.

I'd like to think I have really good boundaries and I try not to let the "femme enough" crap affect me, even if from afar.

If I may ask, do you think that the association of "femme" is done purely based on looks, very similar to butches based on how "macho" they are?



Side comment: Maybe the idea that one shouldn't be judging a book by its cover has been pretty much tossed out by the community in a general sense?

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by Linus

If I may ask, do you think that the association of "femme" is done purely based on looks, very similar to butches based on how "macho" they are?



Side comment: Maybe the idea that one shouldn't be judging a book by its cover has been pretty much tossed out by the community in a general sense?

Yes, absolutely. I know a few femmes who are not as "feminine" as I am or others, as in the stereotypical make-up, heels, dresses, etc. So, they have heard the "not femme enough" many times.

And yes. Femme is a personal ID. Every Femme has their own personal definition. It sucks that we as a community label each other based in appearances. Considering we face so much of it in the world, you'd think we'd learn from that

[JustJo]

Hi everyone

I've been reading this thread since it started and was all ready to post...and then Linus tossed this one in there...

Originally Posted by Linus

But do they see them as femmes or feminine lesbians??

Now, I know this was about mainstream media and all of that public perception stuff, but it also got me thinking...and I've been chewing on it ever since. I'm one of those who took a very long time to figure myself out...for a variety of reasons I won't even begin to go into here. What I do know is that when I finally discovered the butch-femme community it clicked and felt right to me in a way that neither the straight community or the andro-lesbian community did.

I know I'm femme. It's when I start trying to explain and define it that I get into rough ground...and Linus' post is a part of that.

I'm naturally pretty feminine, and am comfortable with that. I wear skirts and dresses, like my nails manicured and prefer kitten heels to pretty much anything else. I like to cook, love to bake, am squeamish, giggle...pretty cliched stuff. However, I'm also stubborn, headstrong, extremely independent and capable. I have an advanced degree, a professional job, and run my own life. I don't need anyone to take care of me...never have since the age of about 14. Anyone who tries to tell me how to think will get an earful...and then some.

So am I "feminine" in the traditional sense? In some ways, yes. In others, not even close. Maybe what I am is not so much feminine as feminist...defining my own femaleness on my own terms.

So then the lesbian part of Linus' question...am I? Well, yea...based on the fact that I'm in a relationship with and love a woman...yes. However, the woman I love is butch... and I'm not attracted at all to feminine or androgynous women. So...what does this all mean?

Am I femme because I'm attracted to butches? That can't be it...I see plenty of femmes who are attracted to other femmes. And if I'm not in a relationship with a butch it isn't like my identity vanishes either. I can be a celibate femme, a femme who loves other femmes, a femme who loves butches....all of those are still femme...even if they aren't my style of being femme.

All of these are spinning around in my head right now....feminine, feminist, femme...and I don't know where the lines are for me. In many ways, I wear the label "femme" as a way to help others know me, at least a little, before they know me for real...as my own unique self. I'm left feeling that my screen name describes it better than my femme label....because when it all boils down to what's really true and important...I'm just Jo.

[blush]

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

Yes, absolutely. I know a few femmes who are not as "feminine" as I am or others, as in the stereotypical make-up, heels, dresses, etc. So, they have heard the "not femme enough" many times.

And yes. Femme is a personal ID. Every Femme has their own personal definition. It sucks that we as a community label each other based in appearances. Considering we face so much of it in the world, you'd think we'd learn from that

Do you think that the labeling is more pronounced in the online community? I say this because usually if you put a gaggle of femmes together, our femme-ness becomes blinding. You can see it from space. Dress, makeup etc...doesn't seem to matter.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by blush

Do you think that the labeling is more pronounced in the online community? I say this because usually if you put a gaggle of femmes together, our femme-ness becomes blinding. You can see it from space. Dress, makeup etc...doesn't seem to matter.

Hmmm... that is interesting to think about...

So tell me if I am understanding: Do you mean specifically that labeling online, like here, without the added piece of physical community is more pronounced?

As in if none of us every physically met, we are more apt to label because we haven't seen each other in person to see that all Femmes are not all dresses and heels?

Did any of that make sense? I am having a hard time articulating....

[blush]

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

Hmmm... that is interesting to think about...

So tell me if I am understanding: Do you mean specifically that labeling online, like here, without the added piece of physical community is more pronounced?

As in if none of us every physically met, we are more apt to label because we haven't seen each other in person to see that all Femmes are not all dresses and heels?

Did any of that make sense? I am having a hard time articulating....

Yeah! That's exactly it.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by blush

Yeah! That's exactly it.

I think if someone had no physical examples of Femme and just read online, looked at photos online and did not participate in THIS kind of dicussion, yes. I think feminine & Femme have been synonymously perpetuated for years.

The thing is, when you get a bunch of Femmes in a room, I think that stereotype rings true. I mean, if you lined up 20 Femmes, I would venture to guess that at least 50 to 60% are more feminine than not. So... there is still the condundrum.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Medusa

How does this continuum affect our visibility or does it?

Im thinking about how all of these things might affect our visibility as Femmes and how much we do/should care if we are invisible to the outside world. Do you think it is important for people to see you as Femme? Do you feel seen as a Femme in this community?

I hope you will forgive my snips Medusa

I came back to add to this thread because the whole concept of femme invisibility has been in my head lately in a very personal way, relating mostly to how incredibly freaking long it took for me to figure out who I am, and why I walked around feeling emotionally unplugged for a good chunk of my life.

When I first discovered the whole butch-femme dynamic, I felt like I had simply come home. All of a sudden, the emotional side of me that had been disconnected so long got plugged back in.

The next thing that happened was that I started blaming and berating myself for being so incredibly stupid for so long. I am 48 years old, have been married to bio-men 3 times, and didn't figure this out until my early 40s. I don't hate men, although I confess I don't trust them much for reasons relating to my own life experiences...so why would I have had so many het relationships? Why would I have married 3 times, trying to find the one man who could make me feel what others were apparently feeling in their relationships? Why did I feel like my personal theme song for so many years was "Is that all there is?" I just didn't really FEEL anything... and was going through the motions in hope that something would somehow magically connect. It didn't...hence the 3 divorces too.

So then...this conversation about femme invisibility...conversations and posts on this site and (previously) the dash site...and memories started to come up for me.

I am not attracted to feminine women...I may like, love or admire them, but I'm not attracted. I am attracted to butch women. I always have been.

However, I am also a child of the 70s and 80s...and every lesbian I met in that time...through my teens, in college....all of them were very much andro. I tended to be attracted to those on the most butch end of that spectrum...and I was completely invisible to them. I have stopped beating myself up for that, at last, as I remember more and more the dynamics of that period of my life.

I went to gay student union meetings in college in the late 70s and early 80s...mostly gay men, but even the few lesbians that were there looked at me like I was in the wrong room. I am inherently fairly shy...and probably left skid marks leaving the room.

I remember going up to San Francisco frequently for the weekend in the early 80s...going to Amelia's when it was still newly open...seeing so many lesbian women and having this chant in my head "why don't they see me? why won't they talk to me?" Again...shy...and left.

Meanwhile...men in my universe wanted my time, attention, sex, whatever...and socialized the way I was (narcissistic family, long story)...I capitulated to that. As if, somehow, those outside myself...the lesbians who didn't see me, and the men who pursued me...knew better than I did who I was.

In hindsight....I wish I had been braver. I wish I had spoken up. I wish I had questioned and learned more to find out where all of these wonderful butches were hanging out. I wish I had found a magnificent femme mentor to take me by the hand and say "this is how we do it baby." I wish I had gotten a pink tank top and bedazzled "Top this!" on the front....something....

But the truth is....we don't know what we don't know. I didn't know butch-femme existed. I didn't have any model for who I am. I just knew that I didn't fit the mold even if it looked like I did on the outside.

So...long way to say it...but yes, I wish I had been seen as femme by the outside world. I wish I had been seen as femme by myself. It's important...
And yes, I do feel seen as femme by this community. And, most importantly, by Scoote...who I love dearly

And that's why I'm no longer singing this...