Betty and Veronica

[Ascot]

I'm moving at the end of the month and I keep telling others, likely with the hope that it will actually come to pass, that I am embracing this move as an opportunity to purge a bunch of crap. To date, I've made it as far as the rummaging stage of that process.

The other day I came across two boxes roughly the size that a set of pans might come in. I've not looked in them for eons. Literally years. I remembered them as soon as I saw them and knew that any progress I was making in that moment was going to cease immediately because I had to dig in. Comic books. Tons of comic books that I've had since I was a kid. Most of them date probably to the early 70s. Super heroes (Thor always took himself too seriously for my taste), spookies, some of those weird Classics Illustrated that were actually based on famous literature, a few Caspers (those have to be my little brother's) and Archie. Lots of Archies. I loved the gang from Riverdale High.

Betty and Veronica, and to a lesser extent, Midge, are my earliest memories of exposure to the good girl, not so good girl archetypes. (Please don't let this devolve into something about how they were degrading and set the women's movement back.) I was quite drawn to both of them. I was a baby butch and I loved girls. All girls. Even comic book girls. At 8 or 9 I didn't have the language for it, but I well knew that what I best liked was the contrast between Betty and Ronnie. It felt like loving sunshine and finding nighttime equally appealing. I had a sense that between the two of them, they'd cover all the bases. Had no idea what those bases might actually be at the time, but I was certain they'd be covered. There's no way that having immersed myself in those stories for several years didn't, at least in some small way, inform some of the preferences that would emerge as I matured. Femininity, wholesomeness, edginess, light and dark, playfulness, the sort of mind that keeps on my toes; all attractions that were nurtured when I was quite young. Archie, the lucky thatched haired bastard, got to date both of them. As far as I was concerned, that was the life! The right girl for every occasion.

As I got older I was elated to find that those qualities of which I'd been so fond from so early on could sometimes be found in one person. When I want a partner, I still seek the right woman for every occasion, just in one package. The older I get, the more selective I find I’m becoming. (I prefer that to ‘rigid’) As I’m sure all of us do to one degree or another, I have those non-negotiables, the I-can-work-with-that stuff, the “damn, that would be awesome!” list, the “whoa, didn’t see that coming” willingness, all these things that I love, want and believe I need. I also, finally, have a decent idea of what I bring to the table. With all of that in mind, with decades of life on me, with having known many, many women…even with all that, sometimes, when I interact with a lovely new woman, this little voice whispers from the back of my head, “So whaddya think, bud…is she a Betty or a Veronica?” It’s not the reduction it might seem. I realize I’m engaged with a fully formed, wonderfully complex being. I think it’s simply a nod to the particular template I developed as a kid. At least for me, it’s hardwired.

Anybody else find that to be the case, that your earliest attractions were the foremothers of your current desires? I have a friend who was wild about Natasha from The Rocky and Bullwinkle Show. I think she’s still seeking her in every woman she dates. Maybe it’s the same for everyone and it’s just on my mind more right now because I’ve been tripping down memory lane with these comics. If you’re willing to share, I’d like to hear your version.

[Ascot]

I posted this in the Butch Zone, because that's generally my default, but of course I invite anyone to comment.

[Cin]

It's hard not to talk about the teenage version of the madonna/whore complex on display for kids to cut their sexual eye teeth on. I often mention how we are fed this misogynistic, limiting for all genders, crap with our pablum from infancy and we can see here how it is added to our teenage hamburgers, fries and drugstore malts, but since the purpose of this thread was clearly NOT to be a discussion of this let me reluctantly move on saddened a bit for the missed opportunity. But anyhow, for me Veronica was the easy choice. I was never attracted to Betty. She chased Archie and let him take too much advantage of her. I couldn't stand her. I did have a thing for Isis of the Shazam!/Isis Hour. I wanted to be her boyfriend so bad. I identified with Captain Marvel in hopes that somehow through that identity i could win Isis's heart. Interestingly enough Captain Marvel has evolved immensely over the years changing genders and was for a time known as Ms. Marvel, then finally becoming once again Captain Marvel but retaining her female gender.

[Ascot]

I am all for working to quell misogyny and the debasing devaluation of women, and often do so, always from a staunchly feminist perspective. I don't, however, subscribe to the notion that if I don't do it at every single opportunity, I shouldn't ever bother. My not wanting to bring those issues into this particular thread has not one iota to do with how I feel about them. I'd simply like this to be a fun exchange that doesn't become weighted down by issues that I fully acknowledge are incredibly important and that are discussed in several other threads.

[Kelt]

I enjoyed the original post as it was written and understand the intention. Thanks for the trip down memory lane.

As for the question posed; I have actually had the opposite experience. I did have traits and ideals that I sought out when I was young based on the fantasies of childhood from various sources. In those first relationships of my twenties (and maybe beyond ) I discovered that some of those things I thought I wanted were, in real life, not all they were cracked up to be in my mind.

My desires have matured although sometimes there will be a fleeting moment of reflection on an old ideal before I catch myself and say "Nope, already tried that one", I'd really rather pursue this other trait.

The older we are, the more likely our childhood memories are to include "incorrect" thinking because that is what was available at the time, at least on comics and movies.

Examining our current thinking and seeing where we either use or change our past ideals is interesting. I wouldn't have thought about it otherwise.

Thanks for the thread idea!

[Shystonefem]

My "ideal" when I was younger turned out to be the ex that I regret having been involved with.

I didn't have a cartoon ideal... I had a person. I fell in love with my ex when I was 16 and didn't start a relationship until I was 40ish ...

I loved Wonder Woman's strength.

I loved the beauty that was Isis.

I have never felt weak and I have never given any energy to any person that I perceived to be weak.

I am attracted to strength. Unfortunately, neither Betty or Veronica seemed strong to me. Neither did Betty Rubble or Wilma Flintstone. Lol

Growing up, not many women were projected as strong women ( Wonder Woman and Isis aside). Even Charlies Angels were directed by two men...... lol

[BullDog]

I've never really been into comics much, but let's just say that on Gilligan's Island I would go for Maryann over Ginger. I am more drawn to the girl next door type than the starlet.
On Sex And The City, it's Charlotte.

I like the girl next door.
I like the brilliant, intense girl whose brain never stops.
I like the wildly creative girl that stays up all night to finish her creations.

These are a few of my favorite things.

[Glenn]

Hm.. going into my subconscious. Remember the Jughead as a pretty cool dude. No difference to me whether they were comic book characters or movie stars in the sixties. Seems I had a different ideal every week.Traits me or my mom lacked Whatever...I always ended up with ladies who looked and acted like my mom anyway.

[Kosmo]

Betty. Just seemed like she would try harder to please you. Veronica...not so much.