Trans Invisibility

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by PapaC

Are there other guys like me that have these moments? Do you miss your 'obvious' queer/butch look? Does it bring up moments of loneliness for you? Do you talk to other trans-friends about it? (for the record, I have problems bringing up this topic with my local pals, as many of them have not lived in any sort of b/f bubble let alone queer id'd)

Hey PapaC...

I do run into the same situations you are describing.......interacting with a "butch" (my way of IDing them) and sometimes wanting to say, "Hey, I see you and get you." Under some circumstances, I'd probably even say that out loud......just haven't yet.

What feels most right for me is to be completely respectful of these individuals.......not be rude or dismissive in any manner. I know those feelings of isolation. I know the apprehension involved when approaching someone for help or being approached......the looks, the remarks that follow once they got the "full me". I always feel protective when I see masculine females, butches, etc... I don't want to be the next asshole that she (he?) runs into that day.

And I know that "protective" statement above stinks to high heaven of privilege. I get that. I'm just being honest about my feelings.

[PapaC]

Originally Posted by Thinker

Hey PapaC...

I do run into the same situations you are describing.......interacting with a "butch" (my way of IDing them) and sometimes wanting to say, "Hey, I see you and get you." Under some circumstances, I'd probably even say that out loud......just haven't yet.

That's exactly the phrasing I was thinking in my head "I see you". In fact, thanks to this thread, it prompted a memory of mine of the first woman who ever directly outted me to, uh me. She was a swimming instructor I worked with for a year back in 1990. She drove me home from work and during that car right she said "I know your secret. you're a lesbian."... although I was... certainly questioning at the time, and I read her as butch (I say masculine female to be more generic fyi, but yes, I'm with you on the whole iding them as 'butch') , I had no idea that I was uh... that obvious? But, it was an interesting experience, in that while I was nervous/anxious/scared and not quite sure on wordings and all this crap, fact is, until she said it, I was having a million and a half thought processes running in my head. Even so, I paused, and calmly replied: "How did you know?" (welcome to 'gaydar', Chris - jeez - lol)


What feels most right for me is to be completely respectful of these individuals.......not be rude or dismissive in any manner. I know those feelings of isolation. I know the apprehension involved when approaching someone for help or being approached......the looks, the remarks that follow once they got the "full me". I always feel protective when I see masculine females, butches, etc... I don't want to be the next asshole that she (he?) runs into that day.

And I know that "protective" statement above stinks to high heaven of privilege. I get that. I'm just being honest about my feelings.

No, I totally get it. I mean, in this specific case, and let's look at it: s/he's what 18, 19 yrs old, and I'm this big fat burly man with a goatee. Hello, creep factor much? (lol) .. I mean, really. ... do you remember the first time a woman crossed the street to avoid you because she's reading you as male, or the first time a woman's steps are faster on the pavement? I do. I never had that experience even while living/being read as masculine female/butch.

The other thing I want to mention is (and this is where I question if I'm being a hypocrite and/or just wanting my cake)... I wanna be stealth when I wanna be, but otherwise open to those few cases where I wish I can say "I see you" by the sheer way in how I used to look. I'm not talking about (necessarily) in a known queer circle (like parties/reunions/bars, etc). but just that instant 'oh he's queer too - cool' kinda thing.

Oh and another uncomfortable setting? My barber shop. My local barber happens to be a woman (straight), and she'd hired only female employees that I've seen over the years. I've always had barbers wanna have a chat with me and such, but in a small town, they're gossiping about this that, and the other thing, but 3-4 women in this shop, they get to discussing their relationships with men, sometimes watching a soap opera too (for good measure)... Well, having been married to a man a lifetime ago, you know.... I 'get them' too.. but from a female perspective. And there's times where I start to wonder.. oh shit, what if I giggle inappropriately *as a guy* when really, I'm kinda identifying with them as my former female self? and then I think 'oh shit, I shouldn't be laughing, they might read me as odd or something'. lol.

I'm not longing to 'return', and I wonder sometimes if traditionally a therapist might read this and say I'm 'ambivalent' or 'unsure' or 'confused' (I've been told that before and told the guy to go pound sand). I admittedly like shifting between communities/groups of people/world at large. I do want to be read more.... intimately if you will... except when I don't.

thanks for your input, Thinker.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by PapaC

No, I totally get it. I mean, in this specific case, and let's look at it: s/he's what 18, 19 yrs old, and I'm this big fat burly man with a goatee. Hello, creep factor much? (lol) .. I mean, really. ... do you remember the first time a woman crossed the street to avoid you because she's reading you as male, or the first time a woman's steps are faster on the pavement? I do. I never had that experience even while living/being read as masculine female/butch.

The other thing I want to mention is (and this is where I question if I'm being a hypocrite and/or just wanting my cake)... I wanna be stealth when I wanna be, but otherwise open to those few cases where I wish I can say "I see you" by the sheer way in how I used to look. I'm not talking about (necessarily) in a known queer circle (like parties/reunions/bars, etc). but just that instant 'oh he's queer too - cool' kinda thing.

Oh and another uncomfortable setting? My barber shop. My local barber happens to be a woman (straight), and she'd hired only female employees that I've seen over the years. I've always had barbers wanna have a chat with me and such, but in a small town, they're gossiping about this that, and the other thing, but 3-4 women in this shop, they get to discussing their relationships with men, sometimes watching a soap opera too (for good measure)... Well, having been married to a man a lifetime ago, you know.... I 'get them' too.. but from a female perspective. And there's times where I start to wonder.. oh shit, what if I giggle inappropriately *as a guy* when really, I'm kinda identifying with them as my former female self? and then I think 'oh shit, I shouldn't be laughing, they might read me as odd or something'. lol.

I'm not longing to 'return', and I wonder sometimes if traditionally a therapist might read this and say I'm 'ambivalent' or 'unsure' or 'confused' (I've been told that before and told the guy to go pound sand). I admittedly like shifting between communities/groups of people/world at large. I do want to be read more.... intimately if you will... except when I don't.

thanks for your input, Thinker.

I relate to that, C. And as for the part I bolded, those people can eff off as far as I'm concerned. I am *very* in touch with who I am, where I've been, etc... (as I believe you are); and I don't think for ONE SECOND that being very present to every experience I ever had makes me ambivalent, unsure, or confused.

To *me*, it makes me feel as if I'm being the most authentic "me" I can be.

Now, I'm not saying that transmen who don't have those same experiences and/or feelings that we are talking about are not being authentic or true to themselves. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that it would be damn near impossible for me to not feel and remember every experience I've ever had and remain aware of how those things shaped me.

Although I can't personally relate to the example you shared from the barber shop (the experiences of being a female married to a male), I know *exactly* what you are talking about and have had my own experiences with people that are similar to that one. Same but different, if you will...

[little man]

i think that it's human nature to miss parts of our "old" life. i liken it to an apartment that had a killer layout, great view and reasonable rent...but the floors sloped, the roof leaked and the neighbors were noisy. the nuisances got to be enough of a downside to move...but i still miss the good parts.

i figure the invisibility to other queers is the price of admission. does it suck? you bet. does it feel like a loss? indeed. to have those things back, i would have to return to living half a life. difficult as it feels sometimes, i can't do that. or won't.

in short, i'd have to say that in order to gain ourselves, we have to give up some of the things we'd learned to take for granted.