Some labels do not include trans in the definition

[Bit]

I think it's important to remember that we each read through the lens of our own experience. What we have lived--our own experience and the experiences of those we love--is going to color what we read and how we respond.

For instance, Wil posted about being a transman who goes to the grocery store and notices that the people around him (mostly straight people, I bet) all seem to take it for granted that their outsides match their insides--so much for granted that they never even think it might not be so for everyone.

adorable read Wil's post about a transman going to the grocery store, but she talked about the transman's experience of being acutely aware that the outsides don't match the inside.

That's two different topics--one is "how others see transmen," and the other is "how transmen see themselves."

Jess posted about not seeing transmen in the community as butches anymore.

Adele read Jess's post and posted about transmen and their partners being excluded from the community.

Again, that's two different topics. One is "transmen are different from butches" and the other is "do transmen fit in this community?"

I think the reason threads like this so often blow up is that people very often think we're all talking about the same exact topic, and don't recognize the different topics as they come up; then we get confused and sometimes hurt and/or angry. It makes it hard to understand each other.

I think, in threads like this, it's more important than ever to remember that none of us are trying to hurt or be disrespectful of anyone. We just aren't always speaking about the exact same topic, yanno?

[BullDog]

Saying you believe that butch and female identities are female identities and wondering where man fits in is not the same thing as saying they shouldn't be welcome. I didn't read Jess' post as saying they shouldn't be welcome.

Very few (I can't think of any but there could be some) transitioned men identify as butch. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be welcome in a butch femme community if they want to be a part of it.

[SuperFemme]

What happens to masculine id'd butches? Those that transition not to male, but out of female and into another gender all together.

Bit? As for me having hurt feelings after reading that *males* don't belong here? I read it exactly as it was written. Please don't negate my feelings again, ok?

I'm trying to make sense of it all, just like Jess.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Bit? As for me having hurt feelings after reading that *males* don't belong here? I read it exactly as it was written. Please don't negate my feelings again, ok?

I didn't negate your feelings, Adele. I stated that you posted about being excluded from the community--and on reading your post again, this sentence, "It feels very Michigan Womans Fest to me in the sense of being incredibly exclusionary in an environment I believed was inclusionary." still says to me that you were posting about transmen and their partners being excluded from the community.

I don't know how you would read my interpreting that you were talking about being excluded from the community as anything other than supportive of your feelings.

It says nothing whatever about you (or your feelings) for me to say that I believe Jess was talking about transmen who have fully transitioned not being butches anymore; I've seldom run into any men who wanted to be referred to as butches once they finish transitioning, so I don't see his statement as disrespectful or exclusionary, especially since he says, "This does not exclude them from the LGBT community..."

If we disagree on what Jess meant by his post, that's fine, but disagreeing about the way to interpret someone else's post is not the same as negating your feelings.

[Queerasfck]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

What happens to masculine id'd butches? Those that transition not to male, but out of female and into another gender all together.

Thanks for bringing this up it's a good point. Sometimes in these gender discussions I feel like I have to pick a side to fit in all the way on the imaginary gender scale some have made.