The Femme Continuum: The "Highs" and "Lows" of Visibility

[Nat]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

very interesting post Nat! Do you mind explaining how you defer to men and maleness?

I kind of have the opposite thing going on, if a man or someone I perceive as male says something about how I should act I laugh, if a woman does I take it to heart way too much.

I wonder if maybe it's how we grew up? our childhoods? Maybe because my Mom died when I was so young, I yearn for female approval and am more freaked out when I don't get it?

Thanks

The best approximation is that I give masculine and male voices more weight in my own mind than feminine and female voices - including my own. This is not intentional or even conscious. But in reaction to feedback from masculine or male voices, I have a sort of comply or defy reaction. Much of the time my reaction is defiance, as I do not want to comply or feel oppressed.

In the men with boobs thread, butch women were stating once again that they want their gender to be respected, and a few said femmes were often more likely to use an incorrect pronoun or indicate in other ways a lack of respect for butch women. What I heard was a demand for more deference than they already get from me. And I had a hard time with that because whether or not I show deference to butches, I give them more weight than I do other femme voices or even my own. So requests for more deference feel overwhelming and upsetting for me.

But after wrestling with it, reading reactions to the post where I voiced this as well as reactions to a few other frustrated femmes, it seems to me like I have been mishearing this whole time due to my own limitations. There is an ocean of difference between respect and deference, and I suspect giving respect would not wear a person out the way deference might. And if I am deferring to butch and male and masculine voices over femme voices, that sucks regarding my relationship to other femmes and women and with myself as well.

I would guess my upbringing and a good 32 years of life have gotten me here. I am not sure if laughing at what a guy says is not an act of defiance, but I can imagine losing your mother young and having been out longer may neutralize some of the stuff in the water.

Or it's also possible it's just a me thing.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Nat

Thanks

The best approximation is that I give masculine and male voices more weight in my own mind than feminine and female voices - including my own. This is not intentional or even conscious. But in reaction to feedback from masculine or male voices, I have a sort of comply or defy reaction. Much of the time my reaction is defiance, as I do not want to comply or feel oppressed.

In the men with boobs thread, butch women were stating once again that they want their gender to be respected, and a few said femmes were often more likely to use an incorrect pronoun or indicate in other ways a lack of respect for butch women. What I heard was a demand for more deference than they already get from me. And I had a hard time with that because whether or not I show deference to butches, I give them more weight than I do other femme voices or even my own. So requests for more deference feel overwhelming and upsetting for me.

But after wrestling with it, reading reactions to the post where I voiced this as well as reactions to a few other frustrated femmes, it seems to me like I have been mishearing this whole time due to my own limitations. There is an ocean of difference between respect and deference, and I suspect giving respect would not wear a person out the way deference might. And if I am deferring to butch and male and masculine voices over femme voices, that sucks regarding my relationship to other femmes and women and with myself as well.

I would guess my upbringing and a good 32 years of life have gotten me here. I am not sure if laughing at what a guy says is not an act of defiance, but I can imagine losing your mother young and having been out longer may neutralize some of the stuff in the water.

Or it's also possible it's just a me thing.

No, that makes sense about me and men I think. Maybe I am defiant. I have not thought about it from that standpoint.

I actually am kind of defiant in general and hate being told what to do by anyone. Like I REALLY hate it. I am not sure I treat anyone with deference, unless they are really old. Respect yes, deference no.

At 32, I think I did though. 40 was a big watershed for me.

I have experienced Femmes absolutely refusing to call Cynthia "She: or even "Cynthia". Several have suggested she go by "Chris", because they had been "taught" that Butches should be referred to as Hy or He and by a male name. I am glad that you now see the difference in respecting their wishes as a person and giving them deference because they are Butch or Male.

Nat, I have always thought you were very respectful of people and way more open minded about gender fluidity than most. I can see you have given this a lot of though and am glad you have come to the conclusion that respect does not mean deference.

I hope that as you age the voice in your head that says a male voice is more powerful than a female voice fades, like it has for me. I think it will.

Very interesting discussion!

[blush]

Originally Posted by Nat

Thanks

In the men with boobs thread, butch women were stating once again that they want their gender to be respected, and a few said femmes were often more likely to use an incorrect pronoun or indicate in other ways a lack of respect for butch women. What I heard was a demand for more deference than they already get from me. And I had a hard time with that because whether or not I show deference to butches, I give them more weight than I do other femme voices or even my own. So requests for more deference feel overwhelming and upsetting for me.

But after wrestling with it, reading reactions to the post where I voiced this as well as reactions to a few other frustrated femmes, it seems to me like I have been mishearing this whole time due to my own limitations. There is an ocean of difference between respect and deference, and I suspect giving respect would not wear a person out the way deference might. And if I am deferring to butch and male and masculine voices over femme voices, that sucks regarding my relationship to other femmes and women and with myself as well.

For me, it starts to feel like deference when femmes are policed more on and held more accountable for pronoun mistakes.

Let me be clear, I'm not at all saying that I don't see the desperate need for everyone to determine their own pronoun and have it respected. I'm addressing the trend I've seen that in the majority of apocryphal stories told about misuse of pronouns (intentional or not), the femme is always "getting it wrong." Why is that? Are femmes the only ones who do this? No. And that is when it starts to feel like deference to me.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by blush

For me, it starts to feel like deference when femmes are policed more on and held more accountable for pronoun mistakes.

Let me be clear, I'm not at all saying that I don't see the desperate need for everyone to determine their own pronoun and have it respected. I'm addressing the trend I've seen that in the majority of apocryphal stories told about misuse of pronouns (intentional or not), the femme is always "getting it wrong." Why is that? Are femmes the only ones who do this? No. And that is when it starts to feel like deference to me.

I guess what I'm having trouble with is the reality testing. This has been my perception too, but I am wondering now if I'm projecting or imagining this because of something going on inside myself rather than in the community.

I don't have a good method for quantifying what the reality is. If I had enough time or enough help to go back through a day's worth of everybody's posts or even just the threads that are specifically about gender recognition and respect and pull out every statement about those who "get it wrong" and see how many of them are femmes and if there is an objective way to measure the difference in tone between the statements about femmes and the statements about others who "get it wrong."

And then to go back through - and I really don't know how this would even be done - and find every single time a person has "gotten it wrong" to calculate who is getting it wrong and in which direction - well I'm sure it would be fascinating research but very difficult and time-consuming.

So, what I'm left with is a feeling. A feeling I don't know what to do with. I don't know if it's valid. I don't know how much of it is internal and how much external. I don't know how to gauge that either.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by blush

For me, it starts to feel like deference when femmes are policed more on and held more accountable for pronoun mistakes.

Let me be clear, I'm not at all saying that I don't see the desperate need for everyone to determine their own pronoun and have it respected. I'm addressing the trend I've seen that in the majority of apocryphal stories told about misuse of pronouns (intentional or not), the femme is always "getting it wrong." Why is that? Are femmes the only ones who do this? No. And that is when it starts to feel like deference to me.

I don't think asking anyone to use the correct pronoun is a form of policing, it's just polite and showing someone consideration, if they are asking and clearly stating this is their preference why wouldn't I respect that or why wouldn't anyone? We (Femmes) want respect, want our gender to be heard, seen and respected, the same goes for everyone else.

Not policing you here, just sharing and talking this out. Thanks for listening

[blush]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I don't think asking anyone to use the correct pronoun is a form of policing, it's just polite and showing someone consideration, if they are asking and clearly stating this is their preference why wouldn't I respect that or why wouldn't anyone? We (Femmes) want respect, want our gender to be heard, seen and respected, the same goes for everyone else.

Not policing you here, just sharing and talking this out. Thanks for listening

I agree, Lady Snow. It certainly isn't a form of policing. No one should have to ask. I must not be being clear because that's not what I'm talking about.

Indulge me again...
When the pronoun topic comes up online, stories are told about bad experiences with pronouns. It seems these stories always revolve around some femme messing up pronouns. We seem to focus on and remember more easily when a femme does this than when any other identity misconstrues pronouns.

I hope that is more clear, I'm certainly not saying that pronoun awareness or asking someone to use the correct pronoun is a form of policing.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by blush

I agree, Lady Snow. It certainly isn't a form of policing. No one should have to ask. I must not be being clear because that's not what I'm talking about.

Indulge me again...
When the pronoun topic comes up online, stories are told about bad experiences with pronouns. It seems these stories always revolve around some femme messing up pronouns. We seem to focus on and remember more easily when a femme does this than when any other identity misconstrues pronouns.

I hope that is more clear, I'm certainly not saying that pronoun awareness or asking someone to use the correct pronoun is a form of policing.

```This is coming from my POV and only mine and it does not mean I think ALL femme's do this.~~~

I see it all the time femme's defaulting to the he pronoun automatically, and when the butch or person corrects them, they have been know to be dismissive, and insulting and even go as far as ASK why they aren't so. That's what *I* I am talking about when I am speaking of that particular matter.

Thanks for listening

[SuperFemme]

I can NOT be the only one on the interwebz who has witnessed a Femme and a male Id'd Butch fall in love. Glitter and unicorns ensue. THEN they break up.
Inevitably, the Femme will come to a thread and switch to using female pronouns and birth names in an attempt to emasculate said Butch.

THAT makes me crazy and is a thousand time worse than being lazy or making a simple mistake.

I'm not the only one? Am I?

[blush]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I can NOT be the only one on the interwebz who has witnessed a Femme and a male Id'd Butch fall in love. Glitter and unicorns ensue. THEN they break up.
Inevitably, the Femme will come to a thread and switch to using female pronouns and birth names in an attempt to emasculate said Butch.

THAT makes me crazy and is a thousand time worse than being lazy or making a simple mistake.

I'm not the only one? Am I?

I've seen that.

I've also seen butches use female pronouns/emasculating phrases when referring to their ex's male-identified partner.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I can NOT be the only one on the interwebz who has witnessed a Femme and a male Id'd Butch fall in love. Glitter and unicorns ensue. THEN they break up.
Inevitably, the Femme will come to a thread and switch to using female pronouns and birth names in an attempt to emasculate said Butch.

THAT makes me crazy and is a thousand time worse than being lazy or making a simple mistake.

I'm not the only one? Am I?

LOL. The "glitter and unicorns" got me. Yes, i have seen that. And worse.

[Spirit Dancer]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I can NOT be the only one on the interwebz who has witnessed a Femme and a male Id'd Butch fall in love. Glitter and unicorns ensue. THEN they break up.
Inevitably, the Femme will come to a thread and switch to using female pronouns and birth names in an attempt to emasculate said Butch.

THAT makes me crazy and is a thousand time worse than being lazy or making a simple mistake.

I'm not the only one? Am I?

SF~
I've seen it way too many times, followed by nasty fights or break ups. Then saying it's true they are the same as me down there. It blows my mind and I lose it, my favorite i've heard a few times as of late is hy is a glitter cock. I despise that word, and it just skeeves me. If you view them as a female then why start anything when you know full well they are male id`ed and you won't respect them in their id.

[blush]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

```This is coming from my POV and only mine and it does not mean I think ALL femme's do this.~~~

I see it all the time femme's defaulting to the he pronoun automatically, and when the butch or person corrects them, they have been know to be dismissive, and insulting and even go as far as ASK why they aren't so. That's what *I* I am talking about when I am speaking of that particular matter.

Thanks for listening

I ask this honestly, not snotty, cause you could prolly whip me around quite a bit...

Is it only femmes? Or do "we" (the collective we) just notice it more and remember it more?

I've seen it from both sides of the fence.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by blush

I ask this honestly, not snotty, cause you could prolly whip me around quite a bit...

Is it only femmes? Or do "we" (the collective we) just notice it more and remember it more?

I've seen it from both sides of the fence.

Woof right??

*I* was coming from my POV and what I have seen more of.

Make sense?

[christie]

Originally Posted by blush

I agree, Lady Snow. It certainly isn't a form of policing. No one should have to ask. I must not be being clear because that's not what I'm talking about.

Indulge me again...
When the pronoun topic comes up online, stories are told about bad experiences with pronouns. It seems these stories always revolve around some femme messing up pronouns. We seem to focus on and remember more easily when a femme does this than when any other identity misconstrues pronouns.

I hope that is more clear, I'm certainly not saying that pronoun awareness or asking someone to use the correct pronoun is a form of policing.

To expand on what I think you are saying here....

Its like we are held to a different/higher standard as if we should "know better"

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by christie0918

To expand on what I think you are saying here....

Its like we are held to a different/higher standard as if we should "know better"

No that is not what is being said at all from what I gather from *any* of the femme's who have voiced their opinions on this and experiences.

Thank you

[christie]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

No that is not what is being said at all from what I gather from *any* of the femme's who have voiced their opinions on this and experiences.

Thank you

This felt incredibly dismissive and silencing.

I merely posted what *my* opinion was on the post I quoted.

If your experience/opinion is different, I am sure it could have been stated without the implied tone.

[blush]

Originally Posted by christie0918

To expand on what I think you are saying here....

Its like we are held to a different/higher standard as if we should "know better"

It can seem that way. Butches and transmen do not get the same amount of backlash that femmes do for misconstruing (intentionally or not) pronouns.