Some labels do not include trans in the definition

[Sachita]

Thank you Jess for your thought provoking words.

I will use you as an example. I always saw you as he. It wasnt your title or anything else just the energy I picked up on. Thats my thing. I'll never forget the day i was talking to someone we both know, Matt, and he said your "girl" name and referred to you as she. I didnt correct him but I admit it took me back and jarred me a little. I don't even now why it did as much as it did.

I then remember another person we both know that gave me shit when I referred to you as He. She corrected me and said, "I am sure Jess is transgender" of course I got shit over that.

I respect anyone's ID, of course, BUT I feel what I feel and if I sense that energy then I roll with it. If THEY correct me, have a problem with it then I correct it to make them more comfortable but i still feel what I feel.

In my perception, this here and now, gender is not an issue but a "feeling" I have. I go with that and like I said, if I'm wrong, someone disputes then I change the words but in my heart I never change. I see it how I feel it.

There are those that claim "he" and I feel "she" and it's not even about how they look but the vibes I pick up on. Again this is my thing. Lady Snow once made reference to her masculine energy and I can relate because i have this too but I'll be damn anyone call me he or boi or anything else. It's a very complicated matter and when it's all said and done it really is an individual process. How I am with you might be different then how I am with someone else. One might see She and I might see He. Honestly, IMO it really doesnt matter unless someone is feeling uncomfortable with it.

[betenoire]

Wait, so a person's gender and pronoun isn't so much about how THEY feel about their own gender and which pronoun they want used...but about how YOU feel about the gender/pronoun you would like to assign that person? And even if they correct you you will still think of them how you want to think of them but figure it's good enough that you try to use the pronoun they want?

Wow.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Wait, so a person's gender and pronoun isn't so much about how THEY feel about their own gender and which pronoun they want used...but about how YOU feel about the gender/pronoun you would like to assign that person? And even if they correct you you will still think of them how you want to think of them but figure it's good enough that you try to use the pronoun they want?

Wow.

I can't change how I feel about something but I do respect someone's ID, for sure. It really isnt about gender for me as it is essence. It's probably complicated for me to fully describe. Let me think about the words more.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Sachita

Thank you Jess for your thought provoking words.

I will use you as an example. I always saw you as he. It wasnt your title or anything else just the energy I picked up on. Thats my thing. I'll never forget the day i was talking to someone we both know, Matt, and he said your "girl" name and referred to you as she. I didnt correct him but I admit it took me back and jarred me a little. I don't even now why it did as much as it did.

I then remember another person we both know that gave me shit when I referred to you as He. She corrected me and said, "I am sure Jess is transgender" of course I got shit over that.

I respect anyone's ID, of course, BUT I feel what I feel and if I sense that energy then I roll with it. If THEY correct me, have a problem with it then I correct it to make them more comfortable but i still feel what I feel.

In my perception, this here and now, gender is not an issue but a "feeling" I have. I go with that and like I said, if I'm wrong, someone disputes then I change the words but in my heart I never change. I see it how I feel it.

There are those that claim "he" and I feel "she" and it's not even about how they look but the vibes I pick up on. Again this is my thing. Lady Snow once made reference to her masculine energy and I can relate because i have this too but I'll be damn anyone call me he or boi or anything else. It's a very complicated matter and when it's all said and done it really is an individual process. How I am with you might be different then how I am with someone else. One might see She and I might see He. Honestly, IMO it really doesnt matter unless someone is feeling uncomfortable with it.

Thanks for the honest response. Like I said, I get "he" and/or "she" everyday and usually it just rolls off.

One poor little older lady was calling me sir at the walmart pharmacy recently and I guess caught a profile of a tit and then fell all over herslef trying to apologize and correct herself. I was like, "ma'am, it is REALLY ok, no big deal". I actually felt sad that she was so dumbfounded. So sincerely upset with her "mistake" and it pained me to see her struggle so with it.

Thanks again.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Sachita

There are those that claim "he" and I feel "she" and it's not even about how they look but the vibes I pick up on.

and what if your 'vibes' are dead wrong--you choose someone else's GENDER based on some *feeling*?

what if i feel like you're a man--should i start he'ing you and 'go with it'?

do you see how this isn't at all your choice to make--how this is all contained within a person--no matter if you never came across someone and 'vibed' their gender/pronoun?

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by apretty

and what if your 'vibes' are dead wrong--you choose someone else's GENDER based on some *feeling*?

what if i feel like you're a man--should i start he'ing you and 'go with it'?

do you see how this isn't at all your choice to make--how this is all contained within a person--no matter if you never came across someone and 'vibed' their gender/pronoun?

Having read and reread Sachita's post several times, it seems to me the totality of what was said is not being acknowledged. Rather a few concepts are being taken out of context.

I did not see her say anywhere that she would be disrespectful and deny someone else's identity. I saw her say she has an internal process....we all do....and maybe what she perceives in that process is not what is being stated by another.

We all get vibes about people. Sometimes we are correct, sometimes not. But to say one cannot have an internal process or a feeling about something is to deny their right to be human.

No one is "choosing" anothers gender or preferred pronoun. Sometimes you dont know and an automatic process is to use what you feel. Seems reasonable to me. Then the other person can state a preference in response. No harm, no foul.

Gawd, if I have to police everything that I think or feel or intuit cuz someone else takes issue with a tiny aspect of MY process, I'd be a freakin basketcase. We wont need to worry about the gender police but we'd have a real problem with the thought police.

[apretty]

hey Kobi--

i'm in no way wanting to control thoughts.

i do question the validity in *anyone* putting in their 2 cents on how another person identifies.

i don't think a 'vibe' or 'feeling' ought to be a factor in 'gender-ing' another person.

and as the 'vibe-theory' was presented, i find myself with a lot of questions (and yes, i did read Sachita's entire post).

i don't understand the process of going from learning about someone's identity and then doing a little 'remodeling' of that (however internal the process), and ending up at some 'conclusion'.

identity is not usually up for debate, despite vibe or attraction--and forming a 'conclusion' on another's identity skates really close to a kind of thing that sometimes happens where a person wishes to redefine a person for their own comfort level.

(and Sachita as much says this, "if I'm wrong, someone disputes then I change the words but in my heart I never change. I see it how I feel it.")

the thing is, it doesn't matter to me if Sachita (or anyone else) keeps that kind of gender-ing an *internal* process--it's still creates the dynamic where a totally and completely other person 'reacts' to an identity as if it's optional and debatable, deniable. again, this is why i used the example of he-ing Sachita if i were to suddenly decide that she's 'a man'.

lastly, i didn't go inside of Sachita's head and steal her private thoughts--they're posted right here for all to read. and while i don't care for thought policing--i don't think that applies to a person publicly describing her process of "feeling" -gender, and utilizing that "feeling" as a barometer for which *she* determines another's gender.

[Kobi]

Hey apretty,

I think I am hearing what you are saying. Theoretically, it is plausible that if one says they are thus and so, we should just take it as they know best....end of process.

I just dont think people, in reality work that way. We were given senses and intuition and gut feelings to help us navigate our way in life. It is a human thing to look at something, anything, and give it our own spin. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we dont. We might not verbalize the process but it doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

You say identity is not up for debate. [i don't understand the process of going from learning about someone's identity and then doing a little 'remodeling' of that (however internal the process), and ending up at some 'conclusion'].

Ok so explain this to me. If you meet a woman who says she is a lesbian but she is married to a male, living with him, and still sleeping with him, do you not have an internal process that says....ok you can call yourself whatever you want but I have some serious reservations about this and it doesnt say lesbian to me.

My point is the principle. I dont believe anyone has the right to question my internal or anyones internal process. It would be like asking me to deny my experiences, my knowledge, my perceptions, my being because I might not come to the same conclusion as someone else.

That is the thought police to me. That is telling me I do not have a right to my opinion, in spite of what is being said to me, based on my own perceptions.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Ok so explain this to me. If you meet a woman who says she is a lesbian but she is married to a male, living with him, and still sleeping with him, do you not have an internal process that says....ok you can call yourself whatever you want but I have some serious reservations about this and it doesnt say lesbian to me.

I am going to answer this even though you didn't ask *me*.

If I met a Lesbian who was married to a man, sleeping with him...I would totally take her at face value. Because to *me* who a person is sleeping with does not define who they are. I am married to a transguy and I am not straight, so I hope nobody tries to take away my Femme.

I don't think that there is such a thing as "thought police" either. That would require giving away ones power. Just because I see things differently than the next person doesn't mean that I am trying to make them carbon copy me.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I am going to answer this even though you didn't ask *me*.

If I met a Lesbian who was married to a man, sleeping with him...I would totally take her at face value. Because to *me* who a person is sleeping with does not define who they are. I am married to a transguy and I am not straight, so I hope nobody tries to take away my Femme.

I don't think that there is such a thing as "thought police" either. That would require giving away ones power. Just because I see things differently than the next person doesn't mean that I am trying to make them carbon copy me.

Super,

Thanks for your input.

Im still thinking if someone tells me an animal is a dog but it meows and purrs, I might be thinking that there dog sure seems like a cat to me.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Hey apretty,

I think I am hearing what you are saying. Theoretically, it is plausible that if one says they are thus and so, we should just take it as they know best....end of process.

I just dont think people, in reality work that way. We were given senses and intuition and gut feelings to help us navigate our way in life. It is a human thing to look at something, anything, and give it our own spin. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we dont. We might not verbalize the process but it doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

You say identity is not up for debate. [i don't understand the process of going from learning about someone's identity and then doing a little 'remodeling' of that (however internal the process), and ending up at some 'conclusion'].

Ok so explain this to me. If you meet a woman who says she is a lesbian but she is married to a male, living with him, and still sleeping with him, do you not have an internal process that says....ok you can call yourself whatever you want but I have some serious reservations about this and it doesnt say lesbian to me.

My point is the principle. I dont believe anyone has the right to question my internal or anyones internal process. It would be like asking me to deny my experiences, my knowledge, my perceptions, my being because I might not come to the same conclusion as someone else.

That is the thought police to me. That is telling me I do not have a right to my opinion, in spite of what is being said to me, based on my own perceptions.

So, then, if I say, "You're not really a butch, and I can clearly see that by the fact that you use blue font and you use female pronouns" that's ok with you?


Dylan

P.S. I've dated and slept with that lesbian you speak of...and her husband

[betenoire]

There's a world of difference between knowing the difference between a dog and a cat and having a secret grin and thinking "oh, I know otherwise" when someone tells you what their gender is.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Hey apretty,

I think I am hearing what you are saying. Theoretically, it is plausible that if one says they are thus and so, we should just take it as they know best....end of process.

I just dont think people, in reality work that way. We were given senses and intuition and gut feelings to help us navigate our way in life. It is a human thing to look at something, anything, and give it our own spin. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we dont. We might not verbalize the process but it doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

You say identity is not up for debate. [i don't understand the process of going from learning about someone's identity and then doing a little 'remodeling' of that (however internal the process), and ending up at some 'conclusion'].

Ok so explain this to me. If you meet a woman who says she is a lesbian but she is married to a male, living with him, and still sleeping with him, do you not have an internal process that says....ok you can call yourself whatever you want but I have some serious reservations about this and it doesnt say lesbian to me.

My point is the principle. I dont believe anyone has the right to question my internal or anyones internal process. It would be like asking me to deny my experiences, my knowledge, my perceptions, my being because I might not come to the same conclusion as someone else.

That is the thought police to me. That is telling me I do not have a right to my opinion, in spite of what is being said to me, based on my own perceptions.

What I think is "awww that sucks" because I know what it's like to live a lie.

[apretty]

this just keeps getting better. not really.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by apretty

and what if your 'vibes' are dead wrong--you choose someone else's GENDER based on some *feeling*?

what if i feel like you're a man--should i start he'ing you and 'go with it'?

do you see how this isn't at all your choice to make--how this is all contained within a person--no matter if you never came across someone and 'vibed' their gender/pronoun?

well first of all I never look at a person and just assume who they are. I'm likely to watch and study and yes my vibes have been wrong. I'm human.