Expectations of FTMs/transsexed men (Dylan's thread)

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I don't see cis men as the be-all and end-all of man. I don't understand why some transmen would hold cis men up as the measuring stick of man and think they were being thought of us as less than if people don't see them exactly the same as cis men. I seriously don't get it. I don't think all transmen do this, but it seems that some do.

i didn't see ANY guy on this site holding a measuring stick to cismen. Again, what I DO see is an overcompensation of identifying the men on this site as TRANS. People don't just say, "He's a man"...they point out that he's a TRANSman. When honestly, it would probably A) be assumed any man on this site is trans and B) we've all interacted together for how long now? Some of us have been here for over ten years...I think we ALL know the men in our community.

Also, I never said (nor did I see where anyone else said this) that the men in this community are thought of as less than if they're not seen as cis. I DID say this 'watering down' of the men in this community is offensive and erasing. And AGAIN by watering down, I mean the constant referrals to 'formerly woman' and the attributing of certain characteristics as 'woman' or 'female' (i.e. 'processing', 'sensitivity', etc) which than heralds back to 'formerly woman' or 'two-spiritedness'. Yet, this same type of behavior is NOT done when folks talk about cismen. When people start going on about how they know lots of men, and 'I don't hate men...some of my best friends are men', and 'I don't hate men...I have a brother/father/grandfather/son/etc' they rarely (and I mean, I've ONLY seen it ONCE) talk about how their 'father/grandfather/son/brother/bestie/etc' is 'two-spirited' or 'dual gendered' or 'formerly woman' or any other somesuch. The father/grandfather/brother/son is just a sensitive, nice guy. NO watering down of male in an effort to acknowledge 'female'. When cis men are talked about, their attributes are NOT given 'womanly/female' connotations/overtures. They are just sensitive men. Or men with a sensitive side. These fathers/grandfathers/sons/brothers etc are NEVER referenced as CIS either. They're just called men. Except in certain contexts (like this particular conversation), people don't say, "My brother is a cisman, and he's sensitive...he's so two-spirited, and it's just so reminiscent of his woman-side, because being sensitive is so womanly". But again, when men in this community are talked about, they are TRANSmen (they HAVE to be signified as some sort of 'formerly woman'...VERY rarely [and in fact, I honestly can't think of one example, but I hesitate to say 'never']) are they referred to as simply 'men', and IF they're sensitive/do anything deemed stereotypically 'feminine' (which according to some ALL transmen are sensitive by nature), that sensitivity is chalked up to their 'womanly' past or some other aspect of their 'journey' (which was always 'difficult', btw...why their 'journey' is always some 'difficult' undertaking [as if any cisperson would know about anyone's trans'journey'] is beyond me). Their 'sensitivity' is chalked up to their 'experience', and all of the sudden, they're not MEN, now they're two-spirits, or 'dual gendered' or someother somesuch.

You call yourself a butch woman. How do you like it when people strip you of 'woman' or 'female' because you do something considered 'stereotypically male' and instead of being a butch woman, you're now 'two spirited' because you did something 'male' or 'masculine'? How about if I take away butch, because you did something 'feminine'? It's the same principle. I'm not 'less man' or 'formerly female' or 'two-spirited' just because I happen to do something sensitive.

If I was going to date a a transwoman who was a femme (because femmes is who I date) or I have a friend who is a transwoman, am I supposed to just completely ignore her past, her childhood, what she has gone through in her life? Just because I know and acknowledge that she was born male doesn't mean I don't see her as a woman.

If you're dating someone, it's up to you and that person to work out your boundaries.

Are you assuming all transwomen/transmen have the same history/background/journey? Because that's what it sounds like. And honestly, that's part of the issue I'm having with this whole 'journey' bullshit. My past, childhood, etc is not the same as anyone else's. It's not a picture of Transdom. Assuming everyone's 'journey' is sooooo painstakingly 'difficult' (transmen don't need anyone's pity because of their 'difficult journeys'), or is the same as Joe's, Mary's, and Bob's because we're all trans is...offensive. You (general) don't know my 'journey' any more than I know Billy's 'journey' or Bo's 'journey'. Assuming all transpeople have been socialized as their assigned at birth sex is also offensive. Some of us weren't. I see this a lot all over this site too. 'The journey', 'The Journey'....Celebrate your 'journey'. STFU about my 'journey'...celebrate your own damned 'journey'. My journey is NOT yours to make assumptions about, or pontificate about, or discuss, or any other somesuch. (not speaking to YOU in particular, Bulldog)


Dylan

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Dylan

i didn't see ANY guy on this site holding a measuring stick to cismen. Again, what I DO see is an overcompensation of identifying the men on this site as TRANS. People don't just say, "He's a man"...they point out that he's a TRANSman. When honestly, it would probably A) be assumed any man on this site is trans and B) we've all interacted together for how long now? Some of us have been here for over ten years...I think we ALL know the men in our community.

Also, I never said (nor did I see where anyone else said this) that the men in this community are thought of as less than if they're not seen as cis. I DID say this 'watering down' of the men in this community is offensive and erasing. And AGAIN by watering down, I mean the constant referrals to 'formerly woman' and the attributing of certain characteristics as 'woman' or 'female' (i.e. 'processing', 'sensitivity', etc) which than heralds back to 'formerly woman' or 'two-spiritedness'. Yet, this same type of behavior is NOT done when folks talk about cismen. When people start going on about how they know lots of men, and 'I don't hate men...some of my best friends are men', and 'I don't hate men...I have a brother/father/grandfather/son/etc' they rarely (and I mean, I've ONLY seen it ONCE) talk about how their 'father/grandfather/son/brother/bestie/etc' is 'two-spirited' or 'dual gendered' or 'formerly woman' or any other somesuch. The father/grandfather/brother/son is just a sensitive, nice guy. NO watering down of male in an effort to acknowledge 'female'. When cis men are talked about, their attributes are NOT given 'womanly/female' connotations/overtures. They are just sensitive men. Or men with a sensitive side. These fathers/grandfathers/sons/brothers etc are NEVER referenced as CIS either. They're just called men. Except in certain contexts (like this particular conversation), people don't say, "My brother is a cisman, and he's sensitive...he's so two-spirited, and it's just so reminiscent of his woman-side, because being sensitive is so womanly". But again, when men in this community are talked about, they are TRANSmen (they HAVE to be signified as some sort of 'formerly woman'...VERY rarely [and in fact, I honestly can't think of one example, but I hesitate to say 'never']) are they referred to as simply 'men', and IF they're sensitive/do anything deemed stereotypically 'feminine' (which according to some ALL transmen are sensitive by nature), that sensitivity is chalked up to their 'womanly' past or some other aspect of their 'journey' (which was always 'difficult', btw...why their 'journey' is always some 'difficult' undertaking [as if any cisperson would know about anyone's trans'journey'] is beyond me). Their 'sensitivity' is chalked up to their 'experience', and all of the sudden, they're not MEN, now they're two-spirits, or 'dual gendered' or someother somesuch.

You call yourself a butch woman. How do you like it when people strip you of 'woman' or 'female' because you do something considered 'stereotypically male' and instead of being a butch woman, you're now 'two spirited' because you did something 'male' or 'masculine'? How about if I take away butch, because you did something 'feminine'? It's the same principle. I'm not 'less man' or 'formerly female' or 'two-spirited' just because I happen to do something sensitive.



If you're dating someone, it's up to you and that person to work out your boundaries.

Are you assuming all transwomen/transmen have the same history/background/journey? Because that's what it sounds like. And honestly, that's part of the issue I'm having with this whole 'journey' bullshit. My past, childhood, etc is not the same as anyone else's. It's not a picture of Transdom. Assuming everyone's 'journey' is sooooo painstakingly 'difficult' (transmen don't need anyone's pity because of their 'difficult journeys'), or is the same as Joe's, Mary's, and Bob's because we're all trans is...offensive. You (general) don't know my 'journey' any more than I know Billy's 'journey' or Bo's 'journey'. Assuming all transpeople have been socialized as their assigned at birth sex is also offensive. Some of us weren't. I see this a lot all over this site too. 'The journey', 'The Journey'....Celebrate your 'journey'. STFU about my 'journey'...celebrate your own damned 'journey'. My journey is NOT yours to make assumptions about, or pontificate about, or discuss, or any other somesuch. (not speaking to YOU in particular, Bulldog)


Dylan

Dylan, of all people you are the one who talks about trans and cis all the time and makes that big distinction, so I am confused about you now saying don't call people trans.

I was totally confused when you objected to someone being referred to as sensitive. To me that's a compliment (except when people accuse you of being over sensitive- as in too emotional or too easily offended). I think both men and women can be sensitive. I don't take that as a dis.

Understanding someone's journey is precisely about getting to know someone is about. My example was if I was dating someone or getting to know a friend. I have no idea how the hell that would be generalizing someone. I said the total opposite.

As far as watering down men. I don't think it's offensive to be a female/woman or a former female/woman, so really I can't relate at all to what you are saying.

If transmen want me to think and treat them exactly the same as cismen I can easily do that. I don't give most cismen any thought or any of my energy. If you need to know why -----> Sexism. It's a man's world.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Dylan, of all people you are the one who talks about trans and cis all the time and makes that big distinction, so I am confused about you now saying don't call people trans.

I was totally confused when you objected to someone being referred to as sensitive. To me that's a compliment (except when people accuse you of being over sensitive- as in too emotional or too easily offended). I think both men and women can be sensitive. I don't take that as a dis.

Understanding someone's journey is precisely about getting to know someone is about. My example was if I was dating someone or getting to know a friend. I have no idea how the hell that would be generalizing someone. I said the total opposite.

As far as watering down men. I don't think it's offensive to be a female/woman or a former female/woman, so really I can't relate at all to what you are saying.

If transmen want me to think and treat them exactly the same as cismen I can easily do that. I don't give most cismen any thought or any of my energy. If you need to know why -----> Sexism. It's a man's world.

If I can disengage you and Dylan for a moment - I realize you two hate to be interrupted...

I would like to know honestly more about what the highlighted part means to you.

I do think that alot of people are coming from the same place you are bulldog and in order for us all to understand each other we need to listen without defending and speak without offending - I am trying myself to do this in the hopes that this thread doesn't turn into a shouting match where no one is heard.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by adorable

If I can disengage you and Dylan for a moment - I realize you two hate to be interrupted...

I would like to know honestly more about what the highlighted part means to you.

I do think that alot of people are coming from the same place you are bulldog and in order for us all to understand each other we need to listen without defending and speak without offending - I am trying myself to do this in the hopes that this thread doesn't turn into a shouting match where no one is heard.

Adorable I'm not really sure how to elaborate any further. There are some individual men that I know that are nice people. Beyond that I don't give much attention or my energy to men in general.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Adorable I'm not really sure how to elaborate any further. There are some individual men that I know that are nice people. Beyond that I don't give much attention or my energy to men in general.

Do you feel like in any way that this has to do with how you see trans, male IDs, FTMs or TGs?

I am not wording it well but I know what I mean. UGH.

Does your choice of not giving attention to men in general at all conflict with you in your associations with trans, male IDs, ftms, or TGs? Do you personally see it as a choice they are making?

[Dylan]

Bulldog, I swear sometimes, I wonder why I continue to engage with you when it continually seems like you don't read my posts at all. It seems like you just glance over them, pick out a few words, and fill in the blanks with a conversation you'd LIKE to have.


Jus' Sayin',
Dylan

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Bulldog, I swear sometimes, I wonder why I continue to engage with you when it continually seems like you don't read my posts at all. It seems like you just glance over them, pick out a few words, and fill in the blanks with a conversation you'd LIKE to have.


Jus' Sayin',
Dylan

Dylan, I feel the same about you. You don't appear to read my posts and I feel like you just play gotcha games with me. Maybe it's just a communication gap. Shrug.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Dylan, I feel the same about you. You don't appear to read my posts and I feel like you just play gotcha games with me. Maybe it's just a communication gap. Shrug.

There's no 'gotcha game', Bulldog

I assume your questions are in an attempt for clarification/knowledge

When I answer your questions, you start a defensive line of 'no I didn't' (when no one said you did) instead of just listening.

I mean, why come into two trans threads now to talk about how you didn't say anything? Why ask questions in the Trans Zone if you're not going to listen to the answers? What's the point of that? Because the only point I can see is to start something.


Dylan

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Dylan

There's no 'gotcha game', Bulldog

I assume your questions are in an attempt for clarification/knowledge

When I answer your questions, you start a defensive line of 'no I didn't' (when no one said you did) instead of just listening.

I mean, why come into two trans threads now to talk about how you didn't say anything? Why ask questions in the Trans Zone if you're not going to listen to the answers? What's the point of that? Because the only point I can see is to start something.


Dylan

Dylan, I am not being the slightest bit defensive. I never said I didn't say anything- that actually doesn't make sense. I think this is derailing the conversation. So please enjoy your conversation. I am taking a bow- and no I am not "quitting" or leaving in a huff. Enjoy your conversation.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I have to ask cause I am taking a break and I am curious..

What would happen if a guy went into a FIB thread and started this sort of dialogue?

What would be the response would they be welcomed?

I truly am curios here..

[adorable]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Bulldog, I swear sometimes, I wonder why I continue to engage with you when it continually seems like you don't read my posts at all. It seems like you just glance over them, pick out a few words, and fill in the blanks with a conversation you'd LIKE to have.


Jus' Sayin',
Dylan

Originally Posted by BullDog

Dylan, I feel the same about you. You don't appear to read my posts and I feel like you just play gotcha games with me. Maybe it's just a communication gap. Shrug.

And yet......

It would be fanfreakingtastic if we could have a discussion where you two DIDN'T feel the need to do this. Whatever the hell "this" is...

[BullDog]

By all means have your conversation. Enjoy.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by BullDog

By all means have your conversation. Enjoy.

I guess this answers my questions..

With all due respect Bulldog, I was merely curious, and no ill intent was behind my question, matter of fact I asked what I know is a question a couple people wanted to ask

I just ask cause well I am curious and I am not scared nor intimated into not asking difficult questions.

No one asked you to leave.. Just clarifying that as well.

[The_Lady_Snow]

This is where it gets icky for me and I bounce out of the convo.. I watch this and *remember* the beginning of what started a rush fire of label and gender threads. I think that is AWESOME, but now with all this and all this finger pointing on who is more welcomed here than whom I must say it's yucky. I can't understand why there can not be a conversation in a queer space without it turning into what is going on here.

Can't just everyone have space here?

I am truly curious cause I can't see how we want the straights to accept us when we can't even fucking be nice to one another.. That means all of us...

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Dylan

If you're dating someone, it's up to you and that person to work out your boundaries.

And that's the bottom line, in my opinion.

I can say "I don't want someone to be attracted to me because I don't have 'male' marked on my birth certificate" until I turn purple, but the fact of the matter is that there *are* people out there who are attracted to transmen (or whichever identifier you choose) primarily because they have transitioned.

Just like there are people out there who are currently involved with transmen simply because they fell for a really great man. And oh. He has this unique history.....completely inconsequential.

Just like there are people out there who are currently involved with women who are trilingual *solely* because being trilingual is a HUGE ASS turn-on to them.

Or what-have-you...

We are attracted to who/what we are attracted to and for our own sets of reasons, and no amount of reasoning/explaining/theorizing/etc... is going to change that for someone else. So if it's not in your own backyard, why would you concern yourself with it?

There are a *lot* of people out there who see transmen as TRANS MEN. A lot. Honestly, I'm not interested in changing their minds. I'd be interested in sharing who I am with them........maybe share my story......maybe not. But at the end of the day, I'm going to move on because there are just too many bigger things to worry about.

Am I off topic?

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Thinker

Am I off topic?

No, you're not off topic.

[adorable]

I would like to say that I am not a femme, I don't ID that way and I wonder where that assumption comes from?

[apretty]

Originally Posted by adorable

I would like to say that I am not a femme, I don't ID that way and I wonder where that assumption comes from?

butchfemmeplanet.com ?

[little man]

could someone please give me the brief rundown on the topic again?

i'm diggin' on reading everyone's POV, but have lost the original intent.

please and thanks.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by little man

could someone please give me the brief rundown on the topic again?

i'm diggin' on reading everyone's POV, but have lost the original intent.

please and thanks.

Expectations that are put on transmen that may stem from stereotypes (i.e. transmen are more sensitive/caring/processy/in tune with women, because "they were once women")

And

The 'expectation' that transmen keep one foot in the 'formerly female' (i.e. by constantly making the distinction of TRANSman instead of just saying man)



Dylan...that's the briefest I could do