The Female Male ID "Wars"... or Great Divide

[Liam]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I ask myself why do all these butch-femme sites pop up with such a mixed group of participants? Why not set up a site that is for transmen/male id and those who love them? Why not honor your identities with a home that puts who you are right out there? Im not dissing anyone here but when I fought to be a lesbian, I wanted a lesbian community. What arent the transmen/male id's wanting to establish a homeland of their own? Is it because they have a ready supply of potential mates in their accepting, inclusive former lesbian home? Why mess up a good thing?

When I first discovered an online butch/femme community, I felt like I had finally found my people. Being relatively isolated, it filled an emptiness I felt; yes, I had friends in my real time life, but none identified as butches and femmes, much less transgender. I was blessed to be able to socialize with an FTM on several occasions. That said, it has always been my belief, that because I once tried to be a woman, and tried to be a dyke/lesbian and led consciousness raising groups on the myriad of isms in our society, marched and fought for women's rights as well as LGBQT rights, pioneered with others to create organizations to address the isms, and the rights of women and those who fall into the category of LGBQT, that I would be welcome here. Transitioning does not erase my past, nor does it transform me into a popular cliche I have heard more than once, right here, a "knuckle dragging male."

When I was trying to be a woman, I accomplished a number of things, as "the first woman to do/be ______." I did not succeed because of male privilege, but because I refused to be told that I was limited to be who I wanted to be, or what I chose to do. I dislike tooting my own horn, but I think it is important for others here to know that I transitioned to male, not for the privilege, but because it was a matter of being true to myself.

[JustJo]

I am almost scared to come into this thread, but I am anyway (cuz that's the kind of femme I am....or, the term I prefer to embrace, the kind of pushy broad I am).

Anyway, I appreciate all of those who are being honest in here...whether I agree with them or not. I've thanked posts that I agree with, and some that I don't - because I believe that they are speaking their own truth fearlessly...and I admire that even when I don't agree.

What I'm seeing here are alot of assumptions. If someone asks for a lesbian space then they're dissing non-lesbians, if they claim an ID then they're dissing those that don't ID that way. If they are trans then they're claiming or somehow unaware of male privilege. I just don't agree. I think what Liam said here is key (and pardon me taking such a short snip Liam)

Originally Posted by Liam

I transitioned to male, not for the privilege, but because it was a matter of being true to myself.

We are all here in our own way, because it's who we are. I didn't decide to claim female or woman...it's who I am. I presume that those who claim male or queer or butch or femme or lesbian or fill in the blank are doing the same thing. And being me isn't dissing you, undermining you or taking anything from you (general you...of course).

And one tiny note...I keep hearing all of this (pardon me, but in my opinion) total crap about women being somehow less than, weaker than, or less capable than men. In my experience, not even close. In my life, the women have been stronger and more resilient. I understand that's not everyone's experience...and no, I'm not hating on men. But in my experience it's the women who stick around and do what needs to be done...even when it's damn hard to do. It's the women who have made sure that children were provided for, that friends were listened to, and that the community stayed a community. If my life exploded tomorrow, I know who I could call for help...and they were all born with vaginas.

And, yes, I'm getting cranky. Sorry.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by JustJo

If they are trans then they're claiming or somehow unaware of male privilege. I just don't agree. I think what Liam said here is key (and pardon me taking such a short snip Liam)

And one tiny note...I keep hearing all of this (pardon me, but in my opinion) total crap about women being somehow less than, weaker than, or less capable than men. In my experience, not even close. In my life, the women have been stronger and more resilient. I understand that's not everyone's experience...and no, I'm not hating on men. But in my experience it's the women who stick around and do what needs to be done...even when it's damn hard to do. It's the women who have made sure that children were provided for, that friends were listened to, and that the community stayed a community. If my life exploded tomorrow, I know who I could call for help...and they were all born with vaginas.

And, yes, I'm getting cranky. Sorry.

Hi JustJo,

Glad you dropped by.

I will try my best to answer your concerns....

1. the issue is not why did Liam personally transition to male. Of course one transitions, even I agree, to be true to who they are. Not a problem. In transitioning, certain priveleges are automatically granted to someone who is or perceived to be male. Which leads us to point 2.

2. Just because women are strong and can do it all does not mean they are not looked down upon as a gender...gender meaning perceptions in the world of male-female. The Bill of Rights for The USA.......we hold these truths to be self evident....all MEN are created equal. Not all men and women, not all people, all MEN. Does that bother you as a woman?

Does it bother you that women and children were once considered property of the men in their lives much like farm animals? Does it bother you that women have been trying to pass the equal rights amendent for 100 years without success? Does it bother you that women rushed to the factories during WW2 so men could go off and fight and when these men returned the women were expected to go back to their wifely duties because men needed the jobs? Does it bother you that women still receives less pay for doing the same job as a man? Does it both you that women still comprise the bulk of the service workers in this country and males the significantly higher professional and technical ones? Does it bother you to know women in the world are mutilated everyday (cliterectomies and such) by other women because their male dominated culture think women ...well they think many unpleasant things.


It is not about being stronger and more resilent. Even men might attest to that. It is about being seen as an equal to their male counterparts and for the male counterparts to be willing to pass laws and do away with male customs that keep women from achieving this.

Soapbox. Kobi. Down.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Hi JustJo,

Glad you dropped by.

I will try my best to answer your concerns....

1. the issue is not why did Liam personally transition to male. Of course one transitions, even I agree, to be true to who they are. Not a problem. In transitioning, certain priveleges are automatically granted to someone who is or perceived to be male. Which leads us to point 2.

2. Just because women are strong and can do it all does not mean they are not looked down upon as a gender...gender meaning perceptions in the world of male-female. The Bill of Rights for The USA.......we hold these truths to be self evident....all MEN are created equal. Not all men and women, not all people, all MEN. Does that bother you as a woman?

Does it bother you that women and children were once considered property of the men in their lives much like farm animals? Does it bother you that women have been trying to pass the equal rights amendent for 100 years without success? Does it bother you that women rushed to the factories during WW2 so men could go off and fight and when these men returned the women were expected to go back to their wifely duties because men needed the jobs? Does it bother you that women still receives less pay for doing the same job as a man? Does it both you that women still comprise the bulk of the service workers in this country and males the significantly higher professional and technical ones? Does it bother you to know women in the world are mutilated everyday (cliterectomies and such) by other women because their male dominated culture think women ...well they think many unpleasant things.


It is not about being stronger and more resilent. Even men might attest to that. It is about being seen as an equal to their male counterparts and for the male counterparts to be willing to pass laws and do away with male customs that keep women from achieving this.

Soapbox. Kobi. Down.

Hi Kobi,

I don't feel like you're on a soapbox...I feel like you're stating your mind and your heart, and I'm always in favor of that.

To the other points...yes....ALL of that bothers me. I'm 48 years old...and it frustrates me beyond all description that the ERA never passed, and everyone seems to have let it all fall by the wayside.

It bothers me that I had to go back to college for 4 years to get an MBA so that I could make the same "decent" living that a whole lot of men can make with a high school diploma.

It bothers me that while women are gaining with regard to pay equity, we are still nowhere close...and probably won't be in my working lifetime.

Lots of things bother me. Racism bothers me. Sexism bothers me. People talking to me like I'm an idiot bothers me. People who drive slow in the left lane bother me. What we're doing to our environment bothers me.

Here's the other thing though. I have to live in the world every day. If I rant at everything that bothers me every day, then I will literally die. My health can't handle that.

I value peace. I value compromise. I value getting along with others as much as possible. I value speaking my own truth and letting others speak their own too.

I don't hate men. That's an interesting position for me. I have never, in my lifetime, been able to count on a single male person for anything. I was raised by a single mother. My grandfather was a child molester that I had to defend my 4 year old cousin from when I was 16. I was gang raped at 14. I have been ripped off, lied to, molested, raped, used, belittled, humiliated, coerced and disregarded - by men.

Here's my other reality. I am the mother of a son, and I live in a world that is composed of men as well as women.

I will speak my truth, live my life and push my own agenda as far as I can, but I choose to do it without trampling over others as much as I possibly can. That doesn't mean I'm not angry. It doesn't mean I don't see injustice.

Here's what I also believe. Change ...REAL change...is slow. Very slow. That sucks, but it's reality. My son doesn't believe the crap about women being "less than" that his father and grandfather believe. In large part, that's because of who I am and how I live.

I honestly don't believe that I will see equality and the end to misogyny in my lifetime. That's a shame. However, I will do my part by living as an example of a strong, resilient, capable woman...and I will raise a son that is one step closer.

That's where I come from. It's different than where you come from, or from most (or maybe all) of the others who have posted here. I think we all have to do it in our own way. It doesn't mean that my way is more valid than yours...or vice versa.

[Kobi]

Hi Jo,

You might be surprised that I agree with a lot that you say. I am 54. I am tired of being a freakin activist in my personal and public and professional life. I've fought all the battles I really want to fight. But, If I dont speak to the sexism and misogyny now and then as a reminder to people that it hasnt gone away, I am implicitly or explicitly agreeing to be a willing participant in my own victimization. It sucks the big one.

And, I dont hate men per se. I have brothers and nephews and male friends. I love them even when they are being shitheads. I am very cautious with them and suspicious of their motives.

Women being good role models for the men/males in their lives is a terrific tribute to all women. And sometimes we do accomplish more on a more to one basis because we change hearts. Changing a heart lasts generations.
You must be very proud of your son as he is of you.

I doubt we will see equality or the end of all the isms in my lifetime either.

Thanks for sharing.

Originally Posted by JustJo

Hi Kobi,

I don't feel like you're on a soapbox...I feel like you're stating your mind and your heart, and I'm always in favor of that.

To the other points...yes....ALL of that bothers me. I'm 48 years old...and it frustrates me beyond all description that the ERA never passed, and everyone seems to have let it all fall by the wayside.

It bothers me that I had to go back to college for 4 years to get an MBA so that I could make the same "decent" living that a whole lot of men can make with a high school diploma.

It bothers me that while women are gaining with regard to pay equity, we are still nowhere close...and probably won't be in my working lifetime.

Lots of things bother me. Racism bothers me. Sexism bothers me. People talking to me like I'm an idiot bothers me. People who drive slow in the left lane bother me. What we're doing to our environment bothers me.

Here's the other thing though. I have to live in the world every day. If I rant at everything that bothers me every day, then I will literally die. My health can't handle that.

I value peace. I value compromise. I value getting along with others as much as possible. I value speaking my own truth and letting others speak their own too.

I don't hate men. That's an interesting position for me. I have never, in my lifetime, been able to count on a single male person for anything. I was raised by a single mother. My grandfather was a child molester that I had to defend my 4 year old cousin from when I was 16. I was gang raped at 14. I have been ripped off, lied to, molested, raped, used, belittled, humiliated, coerced and disregarded - by men.

Here's my other reality. I am the mother of a son, and I live in a world that is composed of men as well as women.

I will speak my truth, live my life and push my own agenda as far as I can, but I choose to do it without trampling over others as much as I possibly can. That doesn't mean I'm not angry. It doesn't mean I don't see injustice.

Here's what I also believe. Change ...REAL change...is slow. Very slow. That sucks, but it's reality. My son doesn't believe the crap about women being "less than" that his father and grandfather believe. In large part, that's because of who I am and how I live.

I honestly don't believe that I will see equality and the end to misogyny in my lifetime. That's a shame. However, I will do my part by living as an example of a strong, resilient, capable woman...and I will raise a son that is one step closer.

That's where I come from. It's different than where you come from, or from most (or maybe all) of the others who have posted here. I think we all have to do it in our own way. It doesn't mean that my way is more valid than yours...or vice versa.

[Gayla]

Kobi -

I am almost 44. I've been out for a very long time. I've been involved in lesbian, feminist, separatist communities/politics/activism since I was, essentially, a child. I "get" your experiences in ways that many people may not because mine have been very similar. I've fought for "women space". I've marched in the streets, spoken at rallies, been published numerous times, had my name smeared in many different places. I embraced my lesbian identity with everything I had including my Birkenstocks, labrys earring and Chris Williamson albums. I cried the day I found out Holly Near was sleeping with a man and I cheered the day kd lang hit the cover of GQ. Up until I moved to Seattle, every job I've had was in some way seen as a professional queer. I've worked in non-profits, worked in a feminist bookstore, managed a gay/lesbian bookstore, owned a gay bar, and worked as a therapist in an inpatient chemical dependency treatment center that only served gay & lesbian clients.

So yeah, I "get" it and we come from places of common reference points.

Based on those reference points, I guess I'm still not really understanding what it is about the site that makes you question whether you belong here. There's never been a time in my life where I wasn't butch, even when it was seen as a negative in the lesbian-feminist community. It's as much a part of me as my big ears and the mole on my left shoulder. So when I see an online community that is called "Butch Femme Planet", there is no doubt that this is a place for me.

Yes, there is a huge amount of diversity in this community. There are people here that are just like me and a bunch that are very different. Knowing that other people don't share my same definitions, beliefs and values about "what butch is" doesn't diminish my place in the community or in any way make me see myself as other or not belonging.

You've talked about a lot of different things, and I know you've mentioned a few different things in different contexts, but I really am curious about what types of things, to you and others that feel the same way, lead you to think you don't belong here?

[Stoney]

WOW ..If I wanted to really stir the pot I could throw in some of my feminist, stomp the patriarchal society,secret man- hatin' semi-separatist attitude in all this but some how I have a feeling it just wouldnt fly...

I dont know about all of you but I dont really want to easily fit into a group. I want MY personal views recognized , I dont want to compromise any thing about who I am, Hell Im half way or better though with creating that person. I aint cuttin' off my corners so I can fit into that hole.
I have been living this life the longest and have the most invested in it. How can anyone tell me how Im supposed to feel and be more educated than me about me?.
Ill argue with a chauvinist till the bitter end if they wanna go.... male female, doesn't matter, it is the mentality not the body or the vehicle that person's soul rides around in.
If I dont verbally kick their ass... I will graciously thank them for the learning experience.
Seriously ,I would thank them either way. Interaction with others, finding a place of belonging is all good stuff as long as you arent swimming around in a humongous school, in uniform, only going where the head fish moves, ( hell who is the head fish anyway???

In my LIFE I'm the head fish, If people wanna follow me or not whatever, Ill take responsibility for where my path leads, whether I end up there all alone or with a bunch of fish followin me there. how many do or do not... means nothing to me.

I wanted to make a comment on a post by adorable about the cinco de mayo thing and her gf.

now.......I dont completely agree that this was dismissing of her identity.

Dumb ignorance maybe but malicious intention no.

To wish some one a happy May 5th is not a ruthless act or even an insult, it was a wish for a good day...was it not... why read in so deep wtf?'

remind me of George Carlin the cashier says" have a NICE day'.. he says" hey fuck you asshole... what if I wanna have a shitty day!!!!!"




I have found in this life that there are a lot of dummies in this world.There are folks that lack social grace, there are people that say dumb things when they are uncomfortable, In an honest attempt to do the exact opposte of dissmiss them, but to somehow acknowledge their difference in a good way, or they are curious.

kids say things like" hey mom is that a boy or a girl.... or look mom that man is wearing a dress , what do we do?? go up and slap the parents? the kid? or go home and quickly take off the dress and never go out in public again..... or maybe organize a rally against parents that dont teach their children proper ways to ignore or avoid differences in politically correct manner........

naw... hell no, it would be easier to take offense, make a comment, scare the kid, and the parent, instilling fear when there could have been simple tolerance and a smile. not an assumption that it was an insult or judgment call.

We need to get thicker skin if we expect to rough the storm of becoming the person we aspire to be. Being a non conformist is the most fightening we face as humans..because we seek relationships and love and to rock the boat might decrease our chances... we think.
then there is the obvious rude comments and actions of assholes for the sake of being assholes,

By the same token, Are ya really gonna let it fuck up your whole day? some dumb fuck head telling you how they think you should live or be or love... ???

On an assumption.......WE all assume , how else could we reason... or relate, or interpret without basing what we see on what we know to be true...? I mean ya could, but it's better to just laugh it off , or use it as an opportunity to educate the person or a chance to make a joke. why draw that kind of energy, most people dont really get it anyways and never will.

hell I weighed about 500 lbs.... people said all kinds of rude shit to me,did mean rude shit to me, ignored and made fun of, whisked their children away from me , treated me like I was mentally incompetent, an idiot and even a freak and the fact I was a woman AND a dyke didnt help much either....Ya think?

Yeah Im a feminist, I reject the attitude of the patriarchal society, I embrace "MY" womanhood I will fight and strive to empower myself my sisters . Does that mean I cant honor your world? no It doesnt ... but it may be that I dont understand it ....or just plain dont or cant relate to it,because it is not for me doesnt make it wrong,

But For me to jumble all men into a pile ( although tempting) JK..... makes me no better informed than the ignorant people who (if I so choose to entertain their uneducated opinion of me) insult and belittle or..choose to devalue my womanhood.

There are spaces fo r" women' only for those women that feel the need for that commonality or empowerment, I love womyns community my feminine SPIRIT is nurtured by that energy....maybe yours is not.... but truely before we can jump on others perception of us we need to find how it is we feel about ourselves. How much of what others think about you makes you who you are?, are you what people define you as or are you really the person you think you are?. Who's runnin this circus?

It aint the 8th clown out of the car, thats probably a given.

We need to lighten up on each other, no matter what, we are all on our own journey...every word you say effects my journey in the way I determine consciously or unconsciously...and the same is for all of us.

I choose to not be a clown.... but that doesn't mean a circus doesn't need a clown.
there are plenty of people to fill that position though out this life.....the story of me: and of you.

The circus really wouldnt be as much fun with out them would it?

I'm gonna be a feminist and activist for the long haul, dont think it will change , I will argue with men who wish to argue and debate with me probably till my spirit soars from this body . Im not dismissing anyone when I say I have always felt their were two kinds of people in this world....women and their children.

Cant say that isnt true, now can we.
peace all!
Stoney