Trans or Butch

[BullDog]

Good because the purpose of the thread isn't to judge others.

Opening post - bold is my emphasis:

Originally Posted by Ender

I've been in this weird state in between trans male and butch female and was wondering if I could get some insight from those who are butch females.

I've been actively questioning for about 5-6 years now, and I've been always going back and forth between the two. The part of me that thinks I'm a trans male is that I express myself in a more masculine manner (however, butch women also do), I pack and bind, and would prefer to compress my chest and would like the option to go shirtless (though, who doesn't). I like male and neutral pronouns, and I am seen by the majority of people as male.

I'm not out to anyone, so I can't really ask someone to call me by my preferred name/pronouns, but I have been trying this online. I've always chose to present myself as male or masculine online (in games, forums, etc) and I was just wondering if this was common amongst other butch women.

There have also been times as a child where I've had thoughts about how I would go about telling people what happened to [given name] if I were to present as male and go by a male name. I also wondered, when I was 9-10, if other girls hated being girls also.

I don't know, I'm just really confused.

Originally Posted by JDeere

Same with myself

[JDeere]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Good because the purpose of the thread isn't to judge others.

Yup i know.

[BullDog]

To answer your original question Ender, many do id as male/masculine online but definitely not all. In my experience, it is much more common online than in real life, where most of my butch friends do go by she and are totally butch. Some go by he and it could also depend on age and the community you live in.

I consider myself totally masculine and butch. I am proud to be a queer/lesbian masculine female - and that is what butch is for me personally.

Anyway, you've already gotten a lot of good advice, but there are still plenty of butches who have no desire to transition and view themselves as female and don't see the need to use male pronouns. It's all a matter of what feels best for you, and there's no rush and sometimes people evolve over time.

Butches and trans-id'd people identify in all different kinds of ways and no one way is better or less than or "more butch" than any other.

[Esme nha Maire]

Might I interject that the terms that people use of themselves and of each other are neither universal, nor are the meanings attached thereto. Put another way, some people will have in their heads hard and fast definitions for each of the terms that we use within our community - but two such people may not agree on where the boundaries between one and another lay. And I'm told that there are marked differences between how women in the USA and UK regard and use the terms often used within our community here.

We all seek to find where we fit in in the world. Where is the place for me? When one doesn't easily conform to the norms of wider society it can be bad enough, but when one finds oneself adrift even within a smaller sub-section of society that notionally one should fit within somewhere, it can be quite upsetting, as I know from personal experience.

THE big thing to take in, in my opinion, is that your personal experiences and feelings are valid. They are a valid way to be, and what anyone else thinks or whether they think the same way in the same terms with the same definitions as you or not does not matter. Fretting and arguing over such can cause unnecessary friction and pain. It's trite but true that "you be YOU" is probably the best advice there is.

You don't have to be trans OR butch. Those are just labels for aspects of being. You can be one, both, neither, you can think of yourself as one, both, neither and none of that matters so long as you are being YOU just as hard as you can. I've used this phrase before because it's true - words - labels - are descriptive (they describe us), not proscriptive (they do not determine who and what we are).

I caused myself a lot of needless grief over the years because I was trying to pigeonhole myself into a few very limited and limiting boxes defined by a very few words because they were the only words I knew: male/female, straight/gay - and my knowledge of how things are and can be was so very limited. The more I came to understand, and the more I came to regard labels as places on a map that I might be nearby, but perhaps not exactly at, rather than those damned constraining pigeonholes, the happier I became.

I hope this helps.

[Lyte]

My experiences have been very similar... 20 years ago and even today!

With those I've gotten to know better, they do not see themselves as female and for a variety of reasons they can't transition to something other of their choosing. Most of the time the reasons are financial. One guy I met here in Texas who had a medical condition (a blood disorder) that made any surgery hazardous. And there was some other issue that limited his taking testosterone. Anyway, to most he just seemed hella butch (he could not pass as male and he knew it) until you got to know him and his preferred pronouns.

Originally Posted by JDeere

I didn't mean to offend. Im posting on what i see in my everyday world. Ive spoken with alot of butches at the bar and the ones who call themselves hardcore butch do not see themselves as female.

But i guess how one sees themselves wont always be seen by others.

[Lyte]

This is the wisest statement on this thread!

Terms ... titles... definitions are going to change over time, across geography and as we and our community changes. It makes little sense to get twisted when someone recounts their own (very personal) experiences.

Even so... that's not what this thread is about... even though it might be tangential to it!

Originally Posted by Esme nha Maire

Might I interject that the terms that people use of themselves and of each other are neither universal, nor are the meanings attached thereto.

[BullDog]

Rolls eyes. If anyone were to suggest that male id butches were soft and not hardcore butch there would be a huge uproar. But of course this was exactly what I was expecting to see when I woke up.

[BullDog]

I seriously hope that people don't solely rely on what they read online to figure out who they are. If I had done that I wouldn't be anything like who I actually am.

My own personal experiences and the experiences I have with butches out in the real world are often quite different than what I read online. I have met a lot of nice people online, some who have gone onto to be real-life partners and friends but there's a lot of posturing as well.

Who you are out in the real world and what you feel fits who you are in your skin is what counts, not online personas.

And never listen to anyone who has to put down others to feel good about themselves.

[JDeere]

Originally Posted by Lyte

My experiences have been very similar... 20 years ago and even today!

With those I've gotten to know better, they do not see themselves as female and for a variety of reasons they can't transition to something other of their choosing. Most of the time the reasons are financial. One guy I met here in Texas who had a medical condition (a blood disorder) that made any surgery hazardous. And there was some other issue that limited his taking testosterone. Anyway, to most he just seemed hella butch (he could not pass as male and he knew it) until you got to know him and his preferred pronouns.

I know of several folks in groups I belong to on Facebook that can't transition mostly for financial reasons, which is sad, I think anyone, regardless of financial means should be able to get the help they need.

[cathexis]

Am a genderqueer individual who has had gender dysphoria even after a
total hysterectomy.

Years later (last year), I found that it was possible to masculinize my chest. I am going through clearance for surgery with my Internist and Cardiologist with
appointments this week.

Started testosterone over a year ago.

Have already had a visit with Cardio., now going for a Stress Test which is
scheduled for next week.

Visit with my Internist on Thurs. with labs already done. Unless she orders
further tests, will meet (probably via Skype) to speak with the surgeon for
final discussion and to get scheduled for surgery.

Glad I have Medicare, as 80% of cost will be covered. Sorry for the guys
Lyte was writing about being unable to have the surgery due to cost.
Perhaps they could inquire about medical tourism to Cuba. Great medical care
and complete acceptance of transgender individuals. The cost will probably be
less than the US even considering the arrangement and transportation.

[JDeere]

In a group I am in on Facebook, someone came forward with the same question you have Ender. I didn't post because some of the folks in said group are lets say " no label, only one gender" type folks. I think in time you will be who you are, no matter what others say, it took me many years to even know I was masculine of any kind, that butch femme trans, etc existed.

I am hoping you are coming into yourself.

[Ender]

I came out to a few of my friends as trans, and they were all super supportive and accepting, however, now I'm starting to question again.

The thing I am sure of is that I am transmasculine (whether I'm butch, trans, somewhere in the middle) I'm unsure of.

I asked them to call me Liam, but as we are all in different cities right now I don't know when I'll get to see them in-person next.

I'm glad I said something, but I don't know if it's just all in my head or not.

[Lyte]

I've always liked the name Liam!

Originally Posted by Ender

I asked them to call me Liam, but as we are all in different cities right now I don't know when I'll get to see them in-person next.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Ender

I came out to a few of my friends as trans, and they were all super supportive and accepting, however, now I'm starting to question again.

The thing I am sure of is that I am transmasculine (whether I'm butch, trans, somewhere in the middle) I'm unsure of.

I asked them to call me Liam, but as we are all in different cities right now I don't know when I'll get to see them in-person next.

I'm glad I said something, but I don't know if it's just all in my head or not.

Hi, Liam.

Have you looked into finding a clinically competent gender therapist? If you need some assistance in finding someone in your area, I would be happy to help you.

You really need someone to bounce this stuff off of who understands the nuances of gender, gender expression, and sexuality. You need someone to assist you in pulling all of this apart.

You also might find it helpful to journal.

Also, it isn't a race...it is a journey.

[Ender]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Hi, Liam.

Have you looked into finding a clinically competent gender therapist? If you need some assistance in finding someone in your area, I would be happy to help you.

You really need someone to bounce this stuff off of who understands the nuances of gender, gender expression, and sexuality. You need someone to assist you in pulling all of this apart.

You also might find it helpful to journal.

Also, it isn't a race...it is a journey.

I used to go, but she was very adamant on getting me on T when I was still questioning things and I stopped going.
I’m looking into online therapists at the moment, since I’m a couple hour drive from the city.