The Planet's Sangha: Buddhist discussions, thought, etc.

charley · 07-01-2018, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martina

... I follow Vipassana/insight meditation where a relationship with the teacher is not prioritized...

Have had many insights (aka Vipassana), without belonging or following any "group". The release of energy coursing through the body is wonderful, and have liked the changes they have brought about, the healing. Seeing what is true or what is false is always so liberating/freeing.

Sorry to hear about Shambhala group. Didn't know about them.

Martina · 07-02-2018, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charley

Have had many insights (aka Vipassana), without belonging or following any "group". The release of energy coursing through the body is wonderful, and have liked the changes they have brought about, the healing. Seeing what is true or what is false is always so liberating/freeing.

Sorry to hear about Shambhala group. Didn't know about them.

I was referring to the Insight Meditation movement, not even to the meditation practice and certainly not to a momentary insight. It's a Buddhist Tradition. It had its flaws to be sure, but it offers a bit more than access to aha moments during meditation. Glad you are doing well on your own. Many practitioners do. But IM is more than whatever you meant dismissively as a "group."

charley · 07-02-2018, 10:34 AM

I do not belong to any organized religion, mainly because I feel that all of them (bar none) have within them the seeds of some kind of abuse. The organized religions of Hinduism and of Buddhism has kept all women in Asian countries no more than servants and slaves to the men propounding the ideas of Hinduism & Buddhism. So, I informed myself as to the subject herein and I am not at all surprised by the the very large number of women claiming allegations of sexual abuse by "elders"/"teachers" in the organized religion of the Shambhala movement:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...se-by-teachers

"Leaders of Shambhala International, which has more than 200 meditation centres across the world, including several in the UK, admitted to major failures in how it dealt with “abhorrent sexual behaviour”."

The report claims: “Known child abusers are freely active within the Shambhala community, some are even senior teachers. Meanwhile, many who have been abused have been left with no recourse but to leave the community to heal and move forward as best they can.”

Shades of Catholic priest pedophilia... doh!

Not only did such abuse occur, but the "leaders" did nothing to prevent and eschew their buds, while all the while preaching mindfulness and awareness!!!

I am sure that the Buddha would roll over in his grave at those who preach Buddhism, and do not even do what he said: as the 4th of his noble truths: "right action"; and the 5th noble truth, that of: "right speech" - lying and withholding information, the latter being worse of course - being lying by omission; and the 7th noble truth, that of: "right mindfulness".

How could anyone trust what comes out of the mouths of such leaders

when they themselves are incapable of doing what the Buddha said?

As per https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/shambhala-abuse/

"In August 2017, Sogyal Rinpoche resigned from Rigpa, the international Buddhist organization that he founded, following accusations of physical, sexual, and emotional abuse. Sogyal was said to enter a period of retreat following the announcement (though he was seen shortly after at a conference in Thailand). Last spring, Lama Norlha, the abbot of New York’s Kagyu Thubten Choling Monastery, stepped down after multiple women whom he allegedly had sexual relationships with came forward. Norlha died last month."

And from: http://www.newsweek.com/buddhist-gro...eachers-830333

Other Buddhist groups: "In 2012, Joshu Sasaki, a Los Angeles–based Zen master, was accused of groping and harassing female students over the course of several decades. Sasaki died in 2014, a year after an independent inquiry of Buddhist leaders concluded that the allegations about Sasaki's misconduct were true.It followed a 2011 report in the Chicago Tribune that hundreds of Theravada Buddhist monks accused of sexually assaulting children in Illinois, Texas and California were able to evade investigations by moving away from their accusers, and 2010 allegations of sexual impropriety against Eido Shimano, a spiritual teacher of the Zen Studies Society headquartered in Manhattan."

So, this situation has been known for some years... doh!

As far as I am concerned, all these monks and priests are fakes, all of them. They are fake human beings. And, none of them are or have ever been enlightened. And, I would never (repeat never!) accept anything anyone of them would say. Throughout history, there have only been a handful of human beings who went all the way, and who I might consider to have been enlightened. I remain as skeptical as I was as a child. Just because someone puts on eastern robes, and spits out clever sentences is meaningless, and that is because all intellectual understanding is meaningless in itself. So, I eschew all intellectual arguments as being utterly meaningless, because deep down such people can remain as oblivious to any kind of harm or abuse they may cause. Like the Buddha said: "nirodha", i.e. negate, negate all that is not real. But, people are gullible and think that if someone has some clever argument, some intellectual knowledge, that means something, and they accept without questioning, without questioning authority, without questioning the tradition of authority.

The very word "tradition" comes from the word "tradere" which means things that are handed down - from the past to the present. It also means "betrayal". So, those that are enamored and attached to tradition are the ones who betray, are the ones who are treacherous. To live in tradition, one must of necessity betray the present, which is why one must be skeptical of anyone proposing and preaching any organized religion which follows any kind of tradition. As one can see, tradition itself denies the possibility of enlightenment, clarity, and truth, and the discovery of whether there is or there is not anything beyond the material, something holy, something truly sacred.

Of course, one can easily retain whatever beliefs and attachments that one has. And, all I can say to that is that it is your life, not mine.

Martina · 07-02-2018, 12:27 PM

I do not think anyone would disagree that religious leaders who abuse their students/parishioners are not authentic in their religious practice.

I assume you revere the Buddha. Well, he put the Dharma and the Sangha above all else. The Dharma is fairly intellectual. There are texts. There are arguments, which you say you eschew. The Sangha is community, which you said you reject completely. There is no Buddhist philosophy or tradition not based in these three. If you deny the Dharma and the Sangha, what is your path to enlightenment? Do you personally commune with an incarnation of the Buddha? Do you claim to be one?

You don't sound like any kind of Buddhist I've encountered. You can't hate everything and hope for enlightenment.

charley · 07-02-2018, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martina

I do not think anyone would disagree that religious leaders who abuse their students/parishioners are not authentic in their religious practice.

I assume you revere the Buddha. Well, he put the Dharma and the Sangha above all else. The Dharma is fairly intellectual. There are texts. There are arguments, which you say you eschew. The Sangha is community, which you said you reject completely. There is no Buddhist philosophy or tradition not based in these three. If you deny the Dharma and the Sangha, what is your path to enlightenment? Do you personally commune with an incarnation of the Buddha? Do you claim to be one?

You don't sound like any kind of Buddhist I've encountered. You can't hate everything and hope for enlightenment.

LOL@ communing with an incarnation of the Buddha, I HOPE NOT! lol Nor, god forbid for me to claim anything but being a human being.
I never said I hated anything or everything. Negation is not about hatred/acceptance. BTW, reincarnation is a just a belief, right? Interior memories could be just genetic memories. Think about that! (grins)

Well, I have the greatest respect for what the Buddha actually said, but no, I am not a Buddhist. Actually, there are accounts that there were 2 of his "followers", perhaps "friends" would be a better word, who listened carefully to what he said and "went" with him. These accounts also state that they died physically before he did, which is an interesting fact, isn't it?

Regarding Sangha, it is true that, in a way, I have turned my back on what society stands for - the greed, the cruelty, the malice, the violence, the hypocrisy and all the lying, the constant wars that are ongoing even as we speak, all the horrors and the abuse, aggression, the vanity, etc. In modern terms, I have turned my back on the fact of GDP or GNP. I feel that as long as society uses people as a means to an end, that itself is just cause to turn one's back on such a society - for one simple reason: a lack of a sense of the meaningfulness of one's life. And, without a sense of the meaningfulness of one's life, life itself becomes meaningless. (As an aside, do you know, that in Bhutan, they measure life in terms of GNH - Gross National Happiness? - wonderful, eh?) But that does not mean that I have turned my back on society per se. There is a big difference between what people think that society "should" stand for, what they attribute to society and that of people just living together. I would not bother to respond here had I turned my back on society.

You asked: "what is your path to enlightenment?" I think there is no path to enlightenment, in the same way that there is no path to truth - path being a method/technique. You see (or perhaps you don't, Martina), the "I" is the path, and that is the problem. Everyone has glimpses about truth now and then, especially artists.

I have no hopes (apart from a vague thought that it would be nice to win a lottery - laughs). All hopes always lead to disappointment, despair, and deception. They are opposite sides of the same coin, do you see that? The idea of opposites are an interesting thing to explore...

There is one thing I might add, love has no opposite.

StillettoDoll · 02-10-2019, 05:54 AM

“The Examined Life”

"Life is profound if you’re awake to see it. It’s one thing to draw from culture, it’s another thing to be drawn so deeply into the culture that your true nature disappears. Wisdom is not merely something to be gained with old age. One can be wise in every stage of one’s life. To manifest wisdom means simply to step back and see— to reflect, inquire, be aware, be disciplined, and be focused not once in a while, but all of the time, moment to moment. This life is precious and fleeting. Pay attention.

Zen monk Seido Ray Ronci

Love that quote

07-02-2018, 10:34 AM	#3
charley Timed Out - Permanent How Do You Identify?: gentle stonebutch [vanilla] Relationship Status: single Join Date: Dec 2017 Location: canada Posts: 497 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 906 Thanked 1,204 Times in 422 Posts Rep Power: 0	Shambhala - sexual scandal - organized religion I do not belong to any organized religion, mainly because I feel that all of them (bar none) have within them the seeds of some kind of abuse. The organized religions of Hinduism and of Buddhism has kept all women in Asian countries no more than servants and slaves to the men propounding the ideas of Hinduism & Buddhism. So, I informed myself as to the subject herein and I am not at all surprised by the the very large number of women claiming allegations of sexual abuse by "elders"/"teachers" in the organized religion of the Shambhala movement: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...se-by-teachers "Leaders of Shambhala International, which has more than 200 meditation centres across the world, including several in the UK, admitted to major failures in how it dealt with “abhorrent sexual behaviour”." The report claims: “Known child abusers are freely active within the Shambhala community, some are even senior teachers. Meanwhile, many who have been abused have been left with no recourse but to leave the community to heal and move forward as best they can.” Shades of Catholic priest pedophilia... doh! Not only did such abuse occur, but the "leaders" did nothing to prevent and eschew their buds, while all the while preaching mindfulness and awareness!!! I am sure that the Buddha would roll over in his grave at those who preach Buddhism, and do not even do what he said: as the 4th of his noble truths: "right action"; and the 5th noble truth, that of: "right speech" - lying and withholding information, the latter being worse of course - being lying by omission; and the 7th noble truth, that of: "right mindfulness". How could anyone trust what comes out of the mouths of such leaders when they themselves are incapable of doing what the Buddha said? As per https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/shambhala-abuse/ "In August 2017, Sogyal Rinpoche resigned from Rigpa, the international Buddhist organization that he founded, following accusations of physical, sexual, and emotional abuse. Sogyal was said to enter a period of retreat following the announcement (though he was seen shortly after at a conference in Thailand). Last spring, Lama Norlha, the abbot of New York’s Kagyu Thubten Choling Monastery, stepped down after multiple women whom he allegedly had sexual relationships with came forward. Norlha died last month." And from: http://www.newsweek.com/buddhist-gro...eachers-830333 Other Buddhist groups: "In 2012, Joshu Sasaki, a Los Angeles–based Zen master, was accused of groping and harassing female students over the course of several decades. Sasaki died in 2014, a year after an independent inquiry of Buddhist leaders concluded that the allegations about Sasaki's misconduct were true.It followed a 2011 report in the Chicago Tribune that hundreds of Theravada Buddhist monks accused of sexually assaulting children in Illinois, Texas and California were able to evade investigations by moving away from their accusers, and 2010 allegations of sexual impropriety against Eido Shimano, a spiritual teacher of the Zen Studies Society headquartered in Manhattan." So, this situation has been known for some years... doh! As far as I am concerned, all these monks and priests are fakes, all of them. They are fake human beings. And, none of them are or have ever been enlightened. And, I would never (repeat never!) accept anything anyone of them would say. Throughout history, there have only been a handful of human beings who went all the way, and who I might consider to have been enlightened. I remain as skeptical as I was as a child. Just because someone puts on eastern robes, and spits out clever sentences is meaningless, and that is because all intellectual understanding is meaningless in itself. So, I eschew all intellectual arguments as being utterly meaningless, because deep down such people can remain as oblivious to any kind of harm or abuse they may cause. Like the Buddha said: "nirodha", i.e. negate, negate all that is not real. But, people are gullible and think that if someone has some clever argument, some intellectual knowledge, that means something, and they accept without questioning, without questioning authority, without questioning the tradition of authority. The very word "tradition" comes from the word "tradere" which means things that are handed down - from the past to the present. It also means "betrayal". So, those that are enamored and attached to tradition are the ones who betray, are the ones who are treacherous. To live in tradition, one must of necessity betray the present, which is why one must be skeptical of anyone proposing and preaching any organized religion which follows any kind of tradition. As one can see, tradition itself denies the possibility of enlightenment, clarity, and truth, and the discovery of whether there is or there is not anything beyond the material, something holy, something truly sacred. Of course, one can easily retain whatever beliefs and attachments that one has. And, all I can say to that is that it is your life, not mine.

07-02-2018, 12:27 PM	#4
Martina Senior Member How Do You Identify?: * Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: * Posts: 4,999 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 13,409 Thanked 18,284 Times in 4,167 Posts Rep Power: 21474854	I do not think anyone would disagree that religious leaders who abuse their students/parishioners are not authentic in their religious practice. I assume you revere the Buddha. Well, he put the Dharma and the Sangha above all else. The Dharma is fairly intellectual. There are texts. There are arguments, which you say you eschew. The Sangha is community, which you said you reject completely. There is no Buddhist philosophy or tradition not based in these three. If you deny the Dharma and the Sangha, what is your path to enlightenment? Do you personally commune with an incarnation of the Buddha? Do you claim to be one? You don't sound like any kind of Buddhist I've encountered. You can't hate everything and hope for enlightenment. __________________ "No matter how cynical I get, I just can't keep up" - Lily Tomlin

02-10-2019, 05:54 AM	#6
StillettoDoll Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Femme Preferred Pronoun?: Lady Relationship Status: single Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,824 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,779 Thanked 3,851 Times in 1,469 Posts Rep Power: 21474854	tricycle magazine 3-4-2013 “The Examined Life” "Life is profound if you’re awake to see it. It’s one thing to draw from culture, it’s another thing to be drawn so deeply into the culture that your true nature disappears. Wisdom is not merely something to be gained with old age. One can be wise in every stage of one’s life. To manifest wisdom means simply to step back and see— to reflect, inquire, be aware, be disciplined, and be focused not once in a while, but all of the time, moment to moment. This life is precious and fleeting. Pay attention. Zen monk Seido Ray Ronci Love that quote __________________