Socialisation and related issues

[Kätzchen]

I spent the majority of my life as an aspiring hairdresser, colorist, and loved dabbling in makeup artistry, as well as nail care and esthetician work.

But I think it's important for transwomen to have community and safe places to enjoy community.

I've known only a few transwomen in my lifetime, but did you know that Tracey Norman was the face of Clairol's Auburn hair coloring products, during the 1970's?

I found an article online about her life as an Black transwoman. Tracey talks about what it's like to be an transwoman and the challenges she faced during very turbulent times. I think transwomen today face the same issues that Tracy faced back then: issues pertaining to physical safety, the right to live safely in society, the right to have gainful employment, the right to find someone to share life with and to be loved and liked for who she is, was and still is.

I think this is an deeply insightful article and I like how she describes the terror of being outted, loss of employment opportunities to her own ability to share about socialization issues, etc., and her life since the 1970s.


Here's the link to the article:

https://www.thecut.com/2015/12/trace...del-c-v-r.html

[Esme nha Maire]

Bex-9Tales, the one thing I'd definitely disagree with you about is regarding MTF socialisation as male and thus experiencing male privilege as necessarily happening, or necessarily happening to the extent that one could justifiably claim to have experienced the male experience of the world, in all cases.

Even that, like so many things, varies from individual to individual. I didn't have to work on thinking like a woman in the slightest; it was just natural to me. Or, put another way - I've always just thought like me, and no-one seems in any doubt that I'm female these days! I haven't a clue what it feels like to be male, think like a male, etc. (gah! stereotypes!.. -can't be helped, for sanity's sake). I'm not claiming any kind of superiority in any sense over that, that's just my personal experience.

As a child, I was treated as if a male child, and expected to be and behave as such, but internally I simply was not, and behaviour wise, well, I was just me, and caused some degree of concern from a fairly early age, I later discovered, although my oddness was put down by my parents to my being bookish and introvert at first, and possibly gay when I was older. I say 'possibly' because I didn't really fit their notions of what a gay lad would be like either, which is hardly surprising, because I wasn't one. And whilst I was presented with "here are these expectations of you, 'cause you're a boy", what I paid most attention to was what was expected of girls and women - because I - the me in here (taps the side of my head) was a girl.

Like yourself, I was aware of issues relating to behaviour with regard to personal safety, but I suppose I had the "geek escape clause" working in my favour . Geeks are expected to be eccentric! And I most definitely was (and am) a geek!

Whilst going through the transition process and being a member of a support group, it became apparent to me that there is a very wide variation in MTFs, not simply visually, but also mentally. But just as some did come across as rather blokey in behaviour, with others it was hard to imagine them as ever being anything other than women , and I don't mean just visually. I was not the most extreme case of being naturally female/un-blokey in behaviour, either.

And male privilege? I'm not claiming that categorically I experienced none whatsoever, but quite honestly, I'm damned if I can think how. The experience of being belittled due to being clearly rather odd (because I simply didn't have it within me to be 'one of the guys') previously felt pretty much the same as does being belittled for being a woman now, the only difference was that I didnt experience trans-hate pre-transition.

Hence my raising the subject of socialisation, because I've seen over-generalisations on the subject in both directions. Rather than experience male privilege and then female lack of privilege, it's been my experience of always lacking privelege, initially because I did not fit expectations, and then due to being visibly female. I'm just as sure that some MTFs do not need to adjust their behaviour and thinking in order to fit in well as female in todays society as I am sure that some do.

I've found it interesting to read of FTM's experiences here, and I've been getting the impression that it's probably more common for them to feel they've experienced both sides of the male/female divide because of the different way in which their dysphoria manifests and its timing. But I'm guessing - I obviously cannot know for sure if this is so, and would be interested to know how they feel about this.

I note that I've seen more than one FTM here express disquiet at the fact that once they have transitioned, they will be seen to be part of a group (males) some of who behave in ways they feel are anywhere from simply damned impolite through to abhorent. Indeed I've pointed out to one FTM myself that not all cis-men behave badly, and in transitioning they will have just increased the chances that some womans next encounter with a bloke will be a pleasant and amiable one.

I'm bemused that I have yet to see any MTF express disquiet that post-transition they will be seen to be part of a group (females) that behave thus-and so. I can't help but wonder whether there's a touch of societal skewing of peoples thinking about what it is to be male or female going on there. I mean, women can behave badly just as men can, and certainly not every MTF woman is an angel, just as not every man is the devil incarnate.

[Bex-9Tales]

Hi Esme,

I appreciate your well-thought out response to this. And while I can't speak for you and your experiences, I personally can't see how any MTF can claim to not have been affected in any way by male socialization; I actually used to think the same way as you - that I hated being socialized male, that I always "thought" female - and in many ways I suppose I did. I always gave more accord to women than men, I was always a bit suspicious of men. But as I began to make myself become more self-deconstructive and aware, I could see the sub-conscious signs of it. The way women born and raised as women often constantly apologize for things they don't need to, the way they are self-effacing, they way they will back down from arguments instead of standing their ground. So so so much of this comes from the 24/7 indoctrination from Western culture, and we don't even appreciate it. How it shapes, molds, and warps us, in ways we don't even appreciate it.

And yes, male privilege is out there, and yes, we benefited from it. There have definitely been times I can recall where I was given more accord because I was presenting male at the time. I can definition think of times where I had to aggressively push a cause to get something - a raise, more resources, what have you, and a lot of that came from pre-programmed "male" behaviors.

And yes, definitely there are some transwomen who "grok" womanthink better than others. I am sad to say that I have come across transwomen who seem to be, and I apologize for how shitty this is going to sound, little more than a male in a dress. They're anti-feminist, they're entitled in the way only men can be, they talk over other women constantly, they tear other women down. And you see it in some of the younger, entitled generation too with this whole Cotton Ceiling bullcrap.

So TLDR, you no doubt experienced male privilege in countless million little ways that you probably would take for granted, even as you hated being identified as male. That doesn't mean it didn't exist for you. As I stated before, if we really want to create a more egalitarian society, and do right by our fellow women, then we must transition our minds as well as our bodies. And yes, as you say, some of us may discover that we don't need to go through as much self-deconstruction and self-deprogramming as others, I have no problems with that line of thinking. But I would be shocked if there was a MTF who didn't need to question at least some of their behavior patterns and thought processes, even just a little. And this isn't meant to be an attack, simply a statement of fact, at how we are deeply influenced by our cultures, even at a non-conscious level.

[Kätzchen]

I sincerely appreciate the dialogue expressed by both of you, Esme and Bex.

I am not sure if it was here on our boards at BFP or in the prior, now-defunct "Dash" community where I have shared this before, but my eldest son, from an very early age, has had (and probably still has) gender dysphoria.

As an young child, my eldest would often dress up in my clothes and feminine articles of lingerie, or use my makeup, lipstick, or even borrow my dress shoes, while exploring his gender identity. And because of this early exploration of gender identity, I sought out an child therapist for my son to go see, to help and provide an safe place for exploration of his gender dysphoria.

I think it's incredibly difficult for those who experience gender dysphoria, no matter what part of the Trans- spectrum one resides. I have always felt that my eldest child leans more toward the female side of the spectrum. But my eldest is also unmistakably male.

Although my son is unmistakably male, I would be remiss to not acknowledge his gender dysphoria, which I believe he still experiences.

I am disclosing this aspect of my eldest's gender dysphoria because as his mother, I have always tried to provide an safe environment for my son to realize that, as his mother, I care about the huge pressures one faces when trying to decide which way to go, so they can come to terms with their gender dysphoria.

Fwiw, I extend my sincere appreciation to members of the Trans- community for sharing your personal experience, concerning your own personal development.

Generally speaking, you are by proxy, in my mind, the Early Adopters of deciding what aspects of Meta-social or Micro-social expectations of socialization you decide to accept or reject.

K.

[Bex-9Tales]

That is so sweet. Thank you for being such an awesome and supportive mother!! I'd like to think that no matter what, the overall trend re: the trans community and acceptance is heading in a positive direction.

[Kätzchen]

Originally Posted by Bex-9Tales

That is so sweet. Thank you for being such an awesome and supportive mother!! I'd like to think that no matter what, the overall trend re: the trans community and acceptance is heading in a positive direction.

Thank you Bex... ... I've tried to always put my children's needs and concern's first, no matter how tough the road has been (past, present or in terms of an future).

I appreciate your candor and Esme's candor too.

[Kätzchen]

Esme? That's incredibly unfair being told off by someone in chat. That's not okay. I hope you realize that that person's behavior is about them (ie, hidden bias, prejudice, etc) and not about you.

And, thank you for disclosing in your post that this happened to you.

Trans-identified individuals are often the targets of this type of prejudicial treatment, as well as other members of the greater LGBTQ community.

It's sad, to me, that given how incredibly hard it is to find our way 'home', that one encounters this in our own community.

"We're all just walking each other home," -- Ram Dass.

That is one of my favorite all time quotes because it's true. We're all just walking each other home.

May you and others find comfort and peace in our community, each and every day.

K.

[Esme nha Maire]

(Chuckle) Bex, these matters of privilege and socialisation and such are things I've long given much thought to since childhood; it's not a subject area I've only thought about since realising that transitioning is possible, at the age of 28, some 32 years ago for me. I was reading feminist literature since my mid-teens and enthralled by it, because it spoke to me of the problems faced by women - people like me - and possible ways to go about trying to tackle them.

You mention self-deprecating behaviour - yep, I've always been like that (got told off for it in chat here by someone just the other evening!). I asked for raises at work but almost never got them; it just wasn't in my nature to be aggressive about it. Now, it should be noted that there are cisgender guys who are self-deprecating and non-agressive, so I'm not claiming that my more female-typical behaviour in that regard necessarily comes from my femaleness. But it is innate. And guys always have talked over me, ignored me, etc. As also have the more forceful women.

The only thing I can think of where I know male privilege was definitely aimed in my direction was a few occasions where, being the only visually male person in a small group, I was looked to as some kind of authority on whatever the topic was at hand. That mere possession of male visual characteristics didn't make me an oracle - ie: I'd happily state that I had no idea if I had no idea - confused some (disgusted some - what kind of a man was I if I didn't know THAT stuff?!), delighted other women. And as I've noted elsewhere, I was quite often, although not always, tacitly treated as 'one of the girls' in offices I worked in, because, well, psychologically I was one.

Actually I've just recalled one temp job I landed because the temping agency had noticed that very thing. A timber merchants had an office run by a male manager but with otherwise all-female staff, and they had a backlog of work, manually creating invoices, so wanted a temp to help. When the agency put me forward, the timber yard wasn't initially enthusiastic because they were concerned that a male might cause problems with the female staff. They reluctantly agreed, on the understanding that if I wasn't suitable I'd be out the door like a shot. That company actually asked for me back by name on three later occasions when they had backlogs because I could both do the work well and fit in fine with the (other, to me) women there.

In short - I'm sufficiently bright and introspective to be aware of the diversity and subtlety of the ways in which male privilege exists and is accorded or taken for granted by some. But truly - nope, I don't believe I was even accorded male privilege very often (and I can't recall ever benefitting from such - not saying I absolutely may not have, just that if I did, it would have been in very, very minor ways), I just didn't fit societys notions of what a male should be like, because I could not - I'm female, always have been as well as having had the severe bodily dysphoria.

It wasn't a case of 'groking womanthink' with me and some others that I encountered - we were just simply ourselves and, well, female of mind. (shrugs). To me it seems like there's a certain amount of 'magical thinking' on the part of some who think that mentally there always MUST be some difference between cisgender women and transwomen, just as there are with some who think that any such differences that exist must necessarily be ignored.

So far as I can see, with regard to the socialisation and male privilege issues with MTFs, the reality is that there is a spectrum from the one extreme, those who have little trouble transitioning because they always were very female of mind and absorbed societys expectations of females, rather than males; through those who may have to work on things a bit in order to transition socially successfully; to those who just cannot seem to stop acting like a bloke and who are always likely to experience problems being accepted as female because of it.

Sure I haven't experienced menses and all that surrounds that, nor childbirth despite my strong instinct, when younger, to want to bear children. I didnt experience people telling me I couldn't be X when I grew up because aside from wanting to be an astronomer from a young age (fairly acceptable for both genders even back then), I tended not to mention some things that I maybe wanted to be, because I was aware I might get strong disapproval for some of them (like being a dancer in certain female dance troupes!).

But I was aware as a child that girls were commonly directed toward certain types of aspirations and away from others, and thought it horribly unfair, and this well before I'd even heard of feminism. (shrugs). We are all individuals, and MTFs are incredibly diverse in the way they present to the world when young and in their experience of the world when young. The myth that we must ALL necessarily have been unaware of the existence of male privilege in the world, and therefore either be educated to a womans lot in the world or have a sudden moment of illumination once we transition is just simply not so, any more than thinking that we're all just women and that's that just because we say we are. I'm as capable of seeing what's in the world around me as any other girl or woman - that's why feminism appealed to me as a youngster - because I hated the way the world treated people like me - ie: women. So I respectfully disagree with you on that point, Bex.

[Esme nha Maire]

As Bex has said, Kätzchen, that is really nice to hear of a mother being that supportive of a child with gender dysphoria! It does raise one point that may be of interest though - the only thing that gave the GIC any pause for thought about me was that I had no history whatsoever of cross-dressing. This because simply changing clothes wouldn't have eased my dysphoria one iota, and the potential negative of being found out if I did try to acquire womens clothing - nope, wasn't worth it.

It was lovely to be seen as and treated as a woman when I socially reassigned, so such social dysphoria as I had was eased, but the more fundamental problem with me was physical, and my bodily dysphoria didnt go away until I had surgery. Both kinds of dysphoria exist on a spectrum, and it's great that more dysphoric youngsters these days are given the chance to explore what's the best solution for them, rather than having to try to decide between one extreme or the other. Which wasnt an issue for me (never any slightest doubt!) but is for some. Supportive parents are pure gold for gender dysphorics!