GOT fans: Who Will Kill Cercei Lannister? Predictions?

[kittygrrl]

i'm just not sure i liked the episode last night..I thought Daenerys behaved badly..although i loved seeing the dragon, incinerating children was unnecessary cruelty..but that is Daenerys fault not the dragon's. I can see the writing on the wall..the last dragon will probably have to be killed because he does not fit in a tame world..Jamie trying to save Cersei, also disappointing..she did not deserve it..even though they both die in the end but then life is often filled with regret & disappointment so in retrospect chillingly realistic, Jamie's brother..not sure how i feel about him..he seems to be fine betraying Daenerys for his truly evil sister, excusing her behavior because she loved her children? Not good enough. Encouraging Jamie who was trying to redeem his life to run off with the monster behind most of Jamie's evil
/ Bewildering..i can't follow his reasoning. Yes brother, it's because of you i'm alive therefore i want you to run off with my truly evil sister who wanted me dead? Ridiculous, this isn't wise or kind, it's stupid. also...
There is no way Jon didn't know his sisters would ever keep such a secret. Jon always makes a wrong call with faulty reasoning..is this on purpose? He doesn't strike me as being a good leader overall..yes he is honest and brave, but is not wise. Which means if he ascends to the throne, he will not be there long. This is why i think in Daenerys dream long ago the throne room was empty and the roof was caved in...who should sit on the throne? his sister Ayra.

[Gemme]

I agree that Arya would be an excellent leader. I'm so disappointed that after 8 seasons of learning how to be a decent human being, Jaime came full circle just to veer back to stupidity and Cersei. Daenerys has completed her journey in becoming a tyrant. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. I'm disappointed in her as well. I think Jon is finally seeing Daenerys now. With a couple episodes left, there's time for him to come around and his family to take over the kingdoms.

[Martina]

There's only one more episode. They've got a lot to do. One cast member said last night's episode was the high point of the season. It was amazing in terms of its depiction of warfare. You could substitute bombs for dragonfire and imagine the horrors of Dresden or Beirut or Sarajevo. I am not sure I've ever seen anything like that on film.

Just re characters, the scene between Tyrion and Jaime was so touching. Loved it. The Clegane Bowl didn't disappoint.

I know people are upset about the boring end to Cercei. I didn't care when the time came. They had to go some way.

People are also upset about Danaerys' Mad Queen transition being so fast. Some folks feel turning her character at all was anti-feminist. But she represents the satrap kind of ruler. I didn't find it surprising that that was her default.

So, now who will kill her? It's setting us up to believe Arya. The white horse seemed kinda mystical.

If we are left with Jon or Sansa on the throne or some federation of houses not ruled by a king, I will be sad that Varys will not be there to see it.

I kinda agree with Danaerys that Tyrion needs to start questioning his judgement. Of course, he won't be her Hand. I assume he'll be on the run North to Sansa and whoever else will oppose Danaerys. Wonder if he and Sansa will end up together? I kind of doubt it.

I wonder if there is any more coming from Bran. If not, ????

Bye, Jaime. *Sniffle*

Poor Jon. Greek Tragedy kind of spot he's in.

[dark_crystal]

i think Jaime came to king's landing to do exactly what he did-- comfort Cersei as she/they died. He knew he didn't have to kill her-- that someone was going to have to and all he had to do was let it happen. But, he did not like to think of her dying alone.

That was his sister and the mother of his children, who are all dead. His best friend from birth. He knew she was evil and she had to go but he could not stand her going through that alone.

Also, i think he knew he himself belonged to the past era, and should die when it did. He was the reason Robert became king, and Cersei's death represented the end of that reign, and he felt that dying alongside Cersei would be appropriate.

My prediction for next week is that the third dragon dies, and possibly Dany, and possibly Jon. Dany seems tainted, but we may be told that this is the dragon's fault. Maybe we'll find out that the dragons made the Targaryens crazy. Maybe the writers will set it up that by killing the dragon, Dany could be redeemed.

I don't think Jon will take the throne bc that would be boring and he is boring.

I think Tyrion could end up in charge, as i have said, bc i see him as the main character, and he has been the most consistently ethical and compassionate.

And isn't he kind of technically the King now? Him or Gendry are technically the king until Westeros formally surrenders to Dany, which isn't going to happen. If Gendry dies, the Lannisters are still the ruling family. If Tyrion takes up the Lannister banner against Dany, he represents a cleansed house which maybe deserves to rule?

OR Gendry, Jon, Tyrion, and Dany all die and Sansa takes the throne as a Lannister, by virtue of her marriage to Tyrion. That would be super ironic in a very appropriate way.

If i were writing i would bring the Night King back OR have the Lord of Light show up.

Because, like, shouldn't everyone be converting to Melisandre and Beric Dondarrion's religion? R'hllor, also known as the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow, has done a LOT-- resurrecting Jon and Dondarrion, killing Renly, killing Shireen, resurrecting Catelyn.

He is the only deity besides Bran & co. that is manifesting real miracles where everyone sees them. He was fighting the Night King from way back. Sure, the Shireen thing was bad, but that was Melisandre failing to understand she was looking for Jon.

Should there be a showdown between R'hllor, the Night King, and the three-eyed raven? Catelyn is still out there, with Nymeria. Both of them need to show up next week, too.

There's a metaphysical storyline that needs to be wrapped up. This has to be about more than who sits a throne. There is a forces of evil vs forces of good situation and we don't know which one R'hllor is. A lot of what has happened is R'hllor's doing.

So maybe someone has to confront R'hllor. Obviously Bran, and who is R'hllor's remaining representative? His mom!!

[kittygrrl]

The god of Light..how fitting and ironic...men have always used "a" god as an excuse to do evil and persuade others it is necessary and good..the desire to erase freedom and subjugate has always been the weakness of the men in this world..and this story is just one of many played out sadly on the screen and in this world and even in our dreams..we keep doing the same things and expecting a different result and maybe this story is the author's way of trying to make us see, who we are and that it doesn't matter if we think we have a better way if we use the same tools to try getting it..i would like to believe that Arya finally understands this..she wanted to become a faceless man to help her in her revenge..but in the process of finally avenging some of the wrongs done to her family realizes in the end that revenge is never sweet..it is just another face of evil disguised as something worthy and right. At least, I would enjoy seeing one person in this whole story understand wickedness done, for whatever reason, will never end in happiness ... I think the ending will be messy, because this life is messy and a happy ending is not possible and would not be appreciated by the audience ...

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

i think Jaime came to king's landing to do exactly what he did-- comfort Cersei as she/they died. He knew he didn't have to kill her-- that someone was going to have to and all he had to do was let it happen. But, he did not like to think of her dying alone.

That was his sister and the mother of his children, who are all dead. His best friend from birth. He knew she was evil and she had to go but he could not stand her going through that alone.

Also, i think he knew he himself belonged to the past era, and should die when it did. He was the reason Robert became king, and Cersei's death represented the end of that reign, and he felt that dying alongside Cersei would be appropriate.

I didn't think of it this way. I like this better but still feel like kicking him in the nuts for hurting Brienne.

[kittygrrl]

Apparently there is a rumor that Jon kills her in the throne room in front of the iron throne, drogo breaks the roof to take her out of there ...if so this proves my point, Jon is no better then she is...he is doomed.

[charley]

Well, looks like none of the main predictions of witches et al and other theories came true... who knew?

Quite the epic end to Cersei and Jaime, the Hound, and Varys, and King's Landing. (Shame about Varys, considering he was the only one who knew what Danaerys was really like.) Never liked Jaime - not since he pushed the kid out of the tower.

Danaerys destroys all. None of the remaining heroes will be happy about that - quite the wake-up shock for all of them. But, they all hitched their dreams on Danaerys' leadership; of course, sacrificing integrity for power. Gee, it's just like the real world (lol). Oh, well. Am quite speechless. At least, Arya survived. She was always my favourite, and there she goes - riding off into the ... on the white horse.

[Martina]

The only good reason to have Catelyn Stark back is to kill her again. Maybe Jon will though, poor guy, he has enough kin complications.

I'm trying to think if I care who's on the throne. I'm not sure I do as long as it's not Dany.

Sansa has been presented as a strong administrator who sees through treachery and faces the truth. I think the fact that she never fell for Dany's line makes her the front runner. Sansa is a rock compared to Jon and Tyrion.

I hope all that mystical shit doesn't happen cause I don't care about it. What makes a good ruler interests me. The Lord of Light . . . Yawn.

[dark_crystal]

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

My prediction for next week is that the third dragon dies, and possibly Dany, and possibly Jon. Dany seems tainted, but we may be told that this is the dragon's fault. Maybe we'll find out that the dragons made the Targaryens crazy. Maybe the writers will set it up that by killing the dragon, Dany could be redeemed.

I don't think Jon will take the throne bc that would be boring and he is boring.

I think Tyrion could end up in charge, as i have said, bc i see him as the main character, and he has been the most consistently ethical and compassionate.

And isn't he kind of technically the King now? Him or Gendry are technically the king until Westeros formally surrenders to Dany, which isn't going to happen. If Gendry dies, the Lannisters are still the ruling family. If Tyrion takes up the Lannister banner against Dany, he represents a cleansed house which maybe deserves to rule?

OR Gendry, Jon, Tyrion, and Dany all die and Sansa takes the throne as a Lannister, by virtue of her marriage to Tyrion. That would be super ironic in a very appropriate way.

If i were writing i would bring the Night King back OR have the Lord of Light show up.

Because, like, shouldn't everyone be converting to Melisandre and Beric Dondarrion's religion? R'hllor, also known as the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow, has done a LOT-- resurrecting Jon and Dondarrion, killing Renly, killing Shireen, resurrecting Catelyn.

He is the only deity besides Bran & co. that is manifesting real miracles where everyone sees them. He was fighting the Night King from way back. Sure, the Shireen thing was bad, but that was Melisandre failing to understand she was looking for Jon.

Should there be a showdown between R'hllor, the Night King, and the three-eyed raven? Catelyn is still out there, with Nymeria. Both of them need to show up next week, too.

There's a metaphysical storyline that needs to be wrapped up. This has to be about more than who sits a throne. There is a forces of evil vs forces of good situation and we don't know which one R'hllor is. A lot of what has happened is R'hllor's doing.

So maybe someone has to confront R'hllor. Obviously Bran, and who is R'hllor's remaining representative? His mom!!

Ok, i wasn't THAT wrong.

[dark_crystal]

This was a good article

(Scientific American) The Real Reason Fans Hate the Last Season of Game of Thrones-- It's not just bad storytelling—it’s because the storytelling style changed from sociological to psychological, By Zeynep Tufekci

The show did indeed take a turn for the worse, but the reasons for that downturn goes way deeper than the usual suspects that have been identified (new and inferior writers, shortened season, too many plot holes). It’s not that these are incorrect, but they’re just superficial shifts. In fact, the souring of Game of Thrones exposes a fundamental shortcoming of our storytelling culture in general: we don’t really know how to tell sociological stories.

At its best, GOT was a beast as rare as a friendly dragon in King’s Landing: it was sociological and institutional storytelling in a medium dominated by the psychological and the individual. This structural storytelling era of the show lasted through the seasons when it was based on the novels by George R. R. Martin, who seemed to specialize in having characters evolve in response to the broader institutional settings, incentives and norms that surround them.

After the show ran ahead of the novels, however, it was taken over by powerful Hollywood showrunners David Benioff and D. B. Weiss. Some fans and critics have been assuming that the duo changed the narrative to fit Hollywood tropes or to speed things up, but that’s unlikely. In fact, they probably stuck to the narrative points that were given to them, if only in outline form, by the original author. What they did is something different, but in many ways more fundamental: Benioff and Weiss steer the narrative lane away from the sociological and shifted to the psychological. That’s the main, and often only, way Hollywood and most television writers tell stories.

[snip]

The initial fan interest and ensuing loyalty wasn’t just about the brilliant acting and superb cinematography, sound, editing and directing. None of those are that unique to GOT, and all of them remain excellent through this otherwise terrible last season.

One clue is clearly the show’s willingness to kill off major characters, early and often, without losing the thread of the story. TV shows that travel in the psychological lane rarely do that because they depend on viewers identifying with the characters and becoming invested in them to carry the story, rather than looking at the bigger picture of the society, institutions and norms that we interact with and which shape us. They can’t just kill major characters because those are the key tools with which they’re building the story and using as hooks to hold viewers.

In contrast, Game of Thrones killed Ned Stark abruptly at the end of the first season, after building the whole season and, by implication, the entire series around him. The second season developed a replacement Stark heir, which appeared like a more traditional continuation of the narrative. The third season, however, had him and his pregnant wife murdered in a particularly bloody way. And so it went. The story moved on; many characters did not.

The appeal of a show that routinely kills major characters signals a different kind of storytelling, where a single charismatic and/or powerful individual, along with his or her internal dynamics, doesn’t carry the whole narrative and explanatory burden. Given the dearth of such narratives in fiction and in TV, this approach clearly resonated with a large fan base that latched on to the show.

In sociological storytelling, the characters have personal stories and agency, of course, but those are also greatly shaped by institutions and events around them. The incentives for characters’ behavior come noticeably from these external forces, too, and even strongly influence their inner life.

[snip]

When someone wrongs us, we tend to think they are evil, misguided or selfish: a personalized explanation. But when we misbehave, we are better at recognizing the external pressures on us that shape our actions: a situational understanding. If you snap at a coworker, for example, you may rationalize your behavior by remembering that you had difficulty sleeping last night and had financial struggles this month. You’re not evil, just stressed! The coworker who snaps at you, however, is more likely to be interpreted as a jerk, without going through the same kind of rationalization. This is convenient for our peace of mind, and fits with our domain of knowledge, too. We know what pressures us, but not necessarily others.

That tension between internal stories and desires, psychology and external pressures, institutions, norms and events was exactly what Game of Thrones showed us for many of its characters, creating rich tapestries of psychology but also behavior that was neither saintly nor fully evil at any one point. It was something more than that: you could understand why even the characters undertaking evil acts were doing what they did, how their good intentions got subverted, and how incentives structured behavior. The complexity made it much richer than a simplistic morality tale, where unadulterated good fights with evil.

The hallmark of sociological storytelling is if it can encourage us to put ourselves in the place of any character, not just the main hero/heroine, and imagine ourselves making similar choices. “Yeah, I can see myself doing that under such circumstances” is a way into a broader, deeper understanding. It’s not just empathy: we of course empathize with victims and good people, not with evildoers.

But if we can better understand how and why characters make their choices, we can also think about how to structure our world that encourages better choices for everyone.