Who Are You People?

firie · 06-08-2010, 06:30 PM

I grew up with the understanding that my grandfather's family (maternal) was "Black Irish." Interestingly, most of the people in his family were/are blonde and blue-eyed and "Black Irish" was always discussed as a condition of poverty, like so poor you were constantly dirty, and so blackened by dirt/soot, and my grandfather was quite ashamed of that because he grew up quite poor.

I have read a bit about it, because it has always intrigued me. No one, apparently, can quite pin down exactly where it started or why, and it is sometimes pejoratively linked to poverty and so a classist slur (association to the potato famine (black potatoes/black death)) or to shanty towns, or to the very poor immigrants coming into the US as a result of the famine, but also to phenotype (African, Native American, French, Jewish, Caribbean, and even Spanish), and with the exception of the "Spanish/Irish" phenotype, was generally thought to be a racist slur, and a product of the entrenched racial discrimination carried over from English sentiment to the US toward the Irish as "savages" along with Africans and Native Americans--some Irish were enslaved and shipped to parts of Africa by the English (there is some speculation that the name came from the Irish that actually stayed on the continent, but it also seems unlikely). Most of what I have read seems to suggest, however, that the actual usage of "Black Irish" is a purely American phenomenon, and that the Irish don't really use the reference, and that it might have connections to where the Irish found themselves in early African and Native American slave history in the US.

There are very romanticized stories that "Black Irish" came from a mix of Irish and elite Spanish blood, an attempt in folklore by the Irish to step up in the world a bit, and so perhaps they actually fabricated a very glorious event at one point in history, where a ship in the Spanish Armada wrecked into the coast of Eire and Irish ladies felt awful for the worn Spanish warriors, and so nursed them, and then had their children, and thus you have the link to darkened hair and eyes so associated with these mythical phenotypes of "Black Irish"; this, and other variations of the Spanish connection, to most scholars, is complete myth.

The whole topic is something I have been interested in for some time. Here is a neat look at some of the theories out there, link here.

I am now going to read the links about "Black Dutch" because I have never heard of that before and must know if this phrase is as curious in history as "Black Irish."

Rockinonahigh · 06-08-2010, 06:53 PM

When I was growing up I found out that in my grandpa lineage was a story about the black italians in our family,many pictures of gramps show him as very dark.I ask once when I was a kid about that cause one of my play mates made comment about it,then I was told we had moorish line of decent from the 600's ad on his side of the family.

Arwen · 06-08-2010, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toughy

Arwen........by connection I meant my family has been in the US for generations....I am 300+ years removed from Europe. It's hard to think of my family as immigrants to this country.....I am a US American.....hard to see any connection other than family members LEFT Europe. I've been to Berlin and Amsterdam and felt no connection to the land or people. My connection is to this land.....mostly to New Mexico and west/panhandle Texas.

Gotcha.

I tell people I am hopelessly Euro-centric in my genetics. Nary a Native American aka Aboriginal in my background.

I can point to a Cole Younger in my tree but have no proof that he was the actual bandit.

My great-great-great grandfather helped found the Democratic party of Travis county (this is not something to be proud of if you know political history) and I am apparently a part of the Austin pioneer families. W00t.

Okay, so that does tickle me a bit because it's kinda cool to be able to drive somewhere and see the ruins of his home.

pajama · 06-08-2010, 11:13 PM

Great thread Arwen.

I'm not that into the geneology, but my Dad sure was. He traced our lineage back to the 1500s in England. Apparently Bartholemew S. came over as an indentured servant and is the only registered S. to come through Elis Island.

Arwen · 06-08-2010, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pajara2

Great thread Arwen.

I'm not that into the geneology, but my Dad sure was. He traced our lineage back to the 1500s in England. Apparently Bartholemew S. came over as an indentured servant and is the only registered S. to come through Elis Island.

That's awesome! I love hits like that. It's a rush when you are researching and you find someone else's tree.

The other cool missing link is that there are a bundh of Herman Conring men in my line. We might be related to THE Herman Conring who is considered the father of German law. Huh!

JustJo · 06-21-2010, 06:58 AM

Some of my friends in the kitchen thread were talking geneaology and looking for this thread, so I came in to give it a big BUMP!

Random · 03-10-2011, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arwen

Gotcha.

I tell people I am hopelessly Euro-centric in my genetics. Nary a Native American aka Aboriginal in my background.

I can point to a Cole Younger in my tree but have no proof that he was the actual bandit.

My great-great-great grandfather helped found the Democratic party of Travis county (this is not something to be proud of if you know political history) and I am apparently a part of the Austin pioneer families. W00t.

Okay, so that does tickle me a bit because it's kinda cool to be able to drive somewhere and see the ruins of his home.

HAH

If he was cole from the Younger gang then our great great somethings ran together... how funny...

AtLast · 03-10-2011, 09:38 PM

I finally learned how an entire segment of my family was erased from my history. Started with my Great-Great maternal Grandfather being left on a door step in Chile and ended (the passing on of this information among us) with racism, pure and simple.

Putting it all together has been an amazing journey- which I hope I am able to complete. I have found a couple of relatives.

Arwen · 03-10-2011, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Random

HAH

If he was cole from the Younger gang then our great great somethings ran together... how funny...

From Neshua, MO.

Hi ya. No wonder we can hang. LOL. Saddle em up!

Luv · 03-11-2011, 12:23 AM

On dads side we are Black Irish and Cherokee..I am 1/8 cherokee.my grandfather was a circuit preacher in the Tennessee Hills (Scott County).Moms side Spanish and Morrocan..many preachers on her side too.

Arwen · 03-11-2011, 08:34 AM

Recently I found a rather hard-to-find ancestor. I'm hoping it is the right one. For me, that's the worst part about Ancestry.com--sloppy research work. People just accept things. I found one of my ancestors b. 1794 with his father listed at b. 1825. HUH?

Obviously they'd switched the son and father's b'days, but still, you have to pay attention.

Did anyone watch the Lionel Ritchie "Who Do You Think You Are" episode?

06-21-2010, 06:58 AM	#6
JustJo Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: pushy broad Preferred Pronoun?: she Relationship Status: Follow your heart; it knows things your mind cannot explain. Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Southeast corner Posts: 5,633 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 24,417 Thanked 25,404 Times in 4,660 Posts Rep Power: 21474857	Some of my friends in the kitchen thread were talking geneaology and looking for this thread, so I came in to give it a big BUMP! __________________ I'm not tall enough to ride emotional roller coasters

03-11-2011, 08:34 AM	#11
Arwen Joy Seeker How Do You Identify?: Smartly-Flavored Preferred Pronoun?: Goddess Relationship Status: Mrs. Syzygy 1/9/14 Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Joyville, NM (aka Land of Enchantment) Posts: 10,140 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 13,636 Thanked 28,107 Times in 6,411 Posts Rep Power: 21474863	Recently I found a rather hard-to-find ancestor. I'm hoping it is the right one. For me, that's the worst part about Ancestry.com--sloppy research work. People just accept things. I found one of my ancestors b. 1794 with his father listed at b. 1825. HUH? Obviously they'd switched the son and father's b'days, but still, you have to pay attention. Did anyone watch the Lionel Ritchie "Who Do You Think You Are" episode? __________________ I wrote a book, y'all! *FREE* Tarotscopes Seek Joy, y'all. Eschew hate. 9Words: A Poetry Challenge \| Do you like me?

06-08-2010, 06:30 PM	#1
firie Timed Out How Do You Identify?: . Relationship Status: . Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: . Posts: 204 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 191 Thanked 469 Times in 128 Posts Rep Power: 0	I grew up with the understanding that my grandfather's family (maternal) was "Black Irish." Interestingly, most of the people in his family were/are blonde and blue-eyed and "Black Irish" was always discussed as a condition of poverty, like so poor you were constantly dirty, and so blackened by dirt/soot, and my grandfather was quite ashamed of that because he grew up quite poor. I have read a bit about it, because it has always intrigued me. No one, apparently, can quite pin down exactly where it started or why, and it is sometimes pejoratively linked to poverty and so a classist slur (association to the potato famine (black potatoes/black death)) or to shanty towns, or to the very poor immigrants coming into the US as a result of the famine, but also to phenotype (African, Native American, French, Jewish, Caribbean, and even Spanish), and with the exception of the "Spanish/Irish" phenotype, was generally thought to be a racist slur, and a product of the entrenched racial discrimination carried over from English sentiment to the US toward the Irish as "savages" along with Africans and Native Americans--some Irish were enslaved and shipped to parts of Africa by the English (there is some speculation that the name came from the Irish that actually stayed on the continent, but it also seems unlikely). Most of what I have read seems to suggest, however, that the actual usage of "Black Irish" is a purely American phenomenon, and that the Irish don't really use the reference, and that it might have connections to where the Irish found themselves in early African and Native American slave history in the US. There are very romanticized stories that "Black Irish" came from a mix of Irish and elite Spanish blood, an attempt in folklore by the Irish to step up in the world a bit, and so perhaps they actually fabricated a very glorious event at one point in history, where a ship in the Spanish Armada wrecked into the coast of Eire and Irish ladies felt awful for the worn Spanish warriors, and so nursed them, and then had their children, and thus you have the link to darkened hair and eyes so associated with these mythical phenotypes of "Black Irish"; this, and other variations of the Spanish connection, to most scholars, is complete myth. The whole topic is something I have been interested in for some time. Here is a neat look at some of the theories out there, link here. I am now going to read the links about "Black Dutch" because I have never heard of that before and must know if this phrase is as curious in history as "Black Irish."

06-08-2010, 06:53 PM	#2
Rockinonahigh Senior Member How Do You Identify?: stone butch Preferred Pronoun?: makes no diffrence,I know who I am. Relationship Status: single,maybe looking if the right person comes along. Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: shreveport,Louisiana Posts: 4,907 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 4,682 Thanked 14,933 Times in 3,938 Posts Rep Power: 21474857	When I was growing up I found out that in my grandpa lineage was a story about the black italians in our family,many pictures of gramps show him as very dark.I ask once when I was a kid about that cause one of my play mates made comment about it,then I was told we had moorish line of decent from the 600's ad on his side of the family.

06-08-2010, 11:13 PM	#4
pajama Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Klingon Preferred Pronoun?: She Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Just South of Nashvegas Baby Posts: 3,115 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 7,546 Thanked 7,476 Times in 1,808 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	Great thread Arwen. I'm not that into the geneology, but my Dad sure was. He traced our lineage back to the 1500s in England. Apparently Bartholemew S. came over as an indentured servant and is the only registered S. to come through Elis Island.

03-10-2011, 09:38 PM	#8
AtLast Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Woman Preferred Pronoun?: HER - SHE Relationship Status: Relating Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: CA & AZ I'm a Snowbird Posts: 5,408 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 11,826 Thanked 10,827 Times in 3,199 Posts Rep Power: 21474858	I finally learned how an entire segment of my family was erased from my history. Started with my Great-Great maternal Grandfather being left on a door step in Chile and ended (the passing on of this information among us) with racism, pure and simple. Putting it all together has been an amazing journey- which I hope I am able to complete. I have found a couple of relatives.

03-11-2011, 12:23 AM	#10
Luv Member How Do You Identify?: .... Relationship Status: .. Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: ..... Posts: 753 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,199 Thanked 1,217 Times in 367 Posts Rep Power: 12549741	On dads side we are Black Irish and Cherokee..I am 1/8 cherokee.my grandfather was a circuit preacher in the Tennessee Hills (Scott County).Moms side Spanish and Morrocan..many preachers on her side too.