Breeder and other words we use to hurt our own.

[Oneida]

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

One of the first things out of my 75 year old great-uncle's mouth was: 'hey you are the last of the <family name>; how old are you honey? thinking about kids anytime soon?'

When I came out to my family, I was around 24 years old. One of my Uncles told me he was said because he really thought I would have been a wonderful mother.

I can't remember what happened yesterday, but some comments live forever in our memories, don't they.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I really don't want this thread to turn into what Dylan thinks about how women are groomed. I get what hy is saying and I hear hym.

Just an FYI

I'm a he...not a hy or hym


Thanks,
Dylan

End Derail

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Just an FYI

I'm a he...not a hy or hym


Thanks,
Dylan

End Derail

just an fyi...respect is given where respect is due.

so i'm fine with he he he

can you not use breeder? curious?

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

just an fyi...respect is given where respect is due.

so i'm fine with he he he

can you not use breeder? curious?

Soooo, are you saying you decided to change up my pronoun because of a disagreement in a thread?


Dylan

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Soooo, are you saying you decided to change up my pronoun because of a disagreement in a thread?


Dylan

no. i was typing fast and using a default male pronoun.
confusing a y for an e is hardly changing your pronoun Dylan.

were we disagreeing?

[Martina]

i had two meetings with parents this week. One adopted a kid whose birth mother had used drugs during her pregnancy. This kid has a conduct disorder. This mother has always done everything she could for her son, spent every dime she could on tutoring, counseling, etc. She works with him daily and is researching right now a placement for him beyond what we can provide. What would her life have been like had she not adopted this child? Much much easier. She has stuck with this kid through thick and thin. He's her son, and she would do anything for him. He's a sweet kid, but difficult is an understatement.

i had another meeting this week with a mother who speaks no English. Her son is seriously emotionally disturbed. She has tried for years to get this kid help. She finally got it this year. She prevailed, and now her child has a chance to live a decent life.

A couple of weeks ago i met with a grandmother raising her grandson. The student is staying out sometimes all night. The grandmother is worried sick, haunted. She is this very grown up working woman. Clearly a woman of great dignity. i offered her a little support and helped work with her grandson so he'd at least call her. She teared up.

These are the parents i see. These are usually poor. Many do not speak English. They are all people of color. They live in or near an unbelievably dangerous neighborhood, and there is the constant threat of violence in their children's lives. They have every disadvantage it is possible to have in this state. And that's how they parent. They are not breeders.

i am going to alternative school graduation today. i have been several times before. You'll never see happier parents in your life. Many of the graduates are kids who others gave up on, including their school district. Trust me, most districts don't put much money into alternative education. When students graduate, it's a testament to them and to their parents.

The only parent i have worked with who made a bad decision concerning her child was middle class and, ironically, an educator. Her ego couldn't take the stigma of putting her son in a certain placement, so the kid didn't get the help he needed. He is now in jail.

[SuperFemme]

I feel the need to come back here and clarify.

The word breeder as uttered by Dylan and my reaction to that word have nothing to do with each other. Light years apart.

I didn't do a good job of making that clear, in fact I made it feel like Dylan was responsible for my reaction.

Dylan, I am sorry for that. I am also sorry for using the wrong pronoun. I was typing fast and hadn't realized I'd used "hy" rather than "he" in reference to you.

Suddenly I found myself in a place where I wanted to dig my heels in and that is not conducive to making sense. So I apologize.

You can have your patriarchal cross reference.

I hope you in turn can understand how hurtful and erasing the term can be to me as a Femme.

This doesn't have to be an either or situation.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I feel the need to come back here and clarify.

The word breeder as uttered by Dylan and my reaction to that word have nothing to do with each other. Light years apart.

I didn't do a good job of making that clear, in fact I made it feel like Dylan was responsible for my reaction.

Dylan, I am sorry for that. I am also sorry for using the wrong pronoun. I was typing fast and hadn't realized I'd used "hy" rather than "he" in reference to you.

Suddenly I found myself in a place where I wanted to dig my heels in and that is not conducive to making sense. Si I apologize.

You can have your patriarchal cross reference.

I hope you in turn can understand how hurtful and erasing the term can be to me as a Femme.

This doesn't have to be an either or situation.

Thanks for your apology.

I understand exactly what you're saying about the term breeder feeling erasing and hurtful. As someone who is female-bodied, I get what you're saying, and I agree with you. Firie has already explained this isn't a word we use (in the sense you're speaking of).

My use of it was *intentional* and meant to be...er...um...what's the word I want...offensive I guess, because I DO find the way the patriarchy views women and grooms girls to be baby-making machines *offensive*.

Again, being that I was making a correlation between FLDS (which is a horribly misogynist society which openly treats women as such through numerous grooming techniques) and mainstream US/Western culture and the sexism/grooming therein, my use of the word was *intentional*

Yes, I agree 100% that the term is offensive...that's why I used it...it was the whole point of the original post...that it IS offensive the way girls are groomed


Dylan

[evolveme]

Also, and I meant to state this in the post preceding, piggybacking off firie's words:

To insist that all of motherhood is necessarily and by virtue a sacred thing, is really only a hair different than the very real and damaging religious dogmatism that insists that women are not worthy unless they achieve motherhood, that this is their function, and that this is the purpose of the union of marriage - a concept which is used to prohibit the LBGTQI community from access to that right.

Even if we don't have "religious beliefs," our "spiritual" ones can and do matter, particularly at the level that they begin to bleed over into points of public policy. In the U.S., anyway, an unfortunate percentage of laws are formed at the behest of religious and spiritual bias.

[SuperFemme]

What I really wanted to explore was the offensive way we use the term against one another (or anyone) but I can see that that is limiting so let's just discuss.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by evolveme

To insist that all of motherhood is necessarily and by virtue a sacred thing, is really only a hair different than the very real and damaging religious dogmatism that insists that women are not worthy unless they achieve motherhood, that this is their function, and that this is the purpose of the union of marriage - a concept which is used to prohibit the LBGTQI community from access to that right.

I'm not sure about insisting- I don't insist that other people agree with me and to me there is a definite difference between faith, belief, dogmatism and the perversion of religious beliefs to control others.

It's part of my own belief system that all life is sacred. I have loved very dearly a few people who had extremely bad - criminally terrible, unfeeling, thoughtless - mothers. But they still gave life - by choice - to people I have loved very much and I do personally consider that a sacred act on their part.

I also think in a few of those cases, abortion or giving the kid up for adoption would have been the better choice. I recently lost somebody I loved very much. Witnessing the pain of his childhood was the best argument I ever encountered for abortion. When parents are incapable of loving their kids, of refraining from abusing them, of abstaining from cruelty toward them, of refraining from drinking or drugging through their pregnancies or parenting, then abortion may well be the kindest thing a person could do for their would-be child. But I still consider the act of bringing a person into this world to be a sacred act and a sacrifice on its own. I don't think it erases terrible behavior.

I know that's part of *my* belief system and I don't have any desire to force that belief onto anybody else. I just hate seeing that belief attacked here as it was earlier when somebody else posted about their own spiritual beliefs about and appreciation for motherhood.

I think it's really easy from the outside to be derisive or dismissive about other people's spiritual or religious beliefs, and I hate to see that happen within this thread or in this community.

Yes, there are dangers when people dogmatize a belief in the sacredness of life or motherhood and then use that to implement laws that oppress.

I think there are also dangers in treating life and motherhood as entirely unsacred things. I think doing so leads to some really horrific ideologies and practices (slavery, the Holocaust, genocide - incidentally all situations in which the forced "breeding" of women has happened).

ps. when I use the word "sacred" it is from a religious/spiritual place. There are other words that an atheist might be more comfortable using. I think there are atheists who very much see the value of life, who can certainly recognize the difference between birth and death, who can see and understand how much is given in the creation of another human being. "Sacred" may be a religious word, but I'm pretty sure there are atheists who value the lives, experiences, sacrifices and hard work involved in carrying and giving birth to a child and/or raising one.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Oneida

When I came out to my family, I was around 24 years old. One of my Uncles told me he was said because he really thought I would have been a wonderful mother.

I can't remember what happened yesterday, but some comments live forever in our memories, don't they.

Right?

My mother was/is upset, because she'll "never have grandchildren"

It was one of the first things out of her mouth

When I was about 10ish (I guess...I don't really remember), my mother also told me, "One day you'll meet a man like your [step] dad and have a bunch of kids"

Her nice catholic upbringing left her feeling like a failure, because she never had twelve kids. And naturally, I was supposed to follow in the footsteps of her 'dream' to have a shit ton of them.

And ironically, she was considered the town Hester Prynne because she'd had one out of wedlock...and considered herself such on top of being a failure for not producing 11 more kids. It was (still is) a completely fucked up (patriarchal) view. A woman isn't 'useful' unless she produces boatloads of offspring...but even if she DOES produce boatloads of offspring, if she doesn't do it FOR a man, she's still considered 'bad' (as evidenced by Firie's comments re: judges' comments that women are breeders...even if they're raped).


Dylan

[blush]

There is also a classist element to how many children are acceptable.

I've wondered if the show, "17 kids and counting" would be as popular if the parents weren't white, wealthy, and Christian.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by blush

There is also a classist element to how many children are acceptable.

I've wondered if the show, "17 kids and counting" would be as popular if the parents weren't white, wealthy, and Christian.

Interesting point.

The number of children that is considered desirable or even acceptable varies alot from culture to culture as well.

Friends of mine in Switzerland told me that they were celebrated for their first child, got modest congratulations on their second, and then dirty looks and snide comments in public from strangers after their third. They are white, middle class, professionals...yet Swiss culture evidently frowns on families of more than 2 children as being environmentally and personally irresponsible.

Guess it all depends on where you're coming from...

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by blush

There is also a classist element to how many children are acceptable.

I've wondered if the show, "17 kids and counting" would be as popular if the parents weren't white, wealthy, and Christian.

Isn't that show only popular in terms of rubbernecking? I don't know one person (in real life) who doesn't make fun of the Duggars. Hell, ---I--- make fun of the Duggars. I think of them as irresponsible and self-congratulatory.

[Mr. Moon]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Right?

My mother was/is upset, because she'll "never have grandchildren"

It was one of the first things out of her mouth

When I was about 10ish (I guess...I don't really remember), my mother also told me, "One day you'll meet a man like your [step] dad and have a bunch of kids"

Her nice catholic upbringing left her feeling like a failure, because she never had twelve kids. And naturally, I was supposed to follow in the footsteps of her 'dream' to have a shit ton of them.

And ironically, she was considered the town Hester Prynne because she'd had one out of wedlock...and considered herself such on top of being a failure for not producing 11 more kids. It was (still is) a completely fucked up (patriarchal) view. A woman isn't 'useful' unless she produces boatloads of offspring...but even if she DOES produce boatloads of offspring, if she doesn't do it FOR a man, she's still considered 'bad' (as evidenced by Firie's comments re: judges' comments that women are breeders...even if they're raped).


Dylan

I'm sorry that you were raised in that way, Dylan. It's obviously affected your view on so many things.

My Mom said to me the day after my hysterectomy..."Well now I really know you won't have children". I was pretty stunned, considering she knew I was gay for at least 10 years at that point. No to mention *I* knew I did not and had never wanted children. However, she did not force her view upon me. I get the feeling, Dylan, that you believe thinking about your Daughters AND Sons having a family is a derogotory thing. That is somehow translates to the negative. I have to say, not always. I think it's quite natural for a parent to want the best for thier children. And if they think the white picket fence world is the best thing in the whole world, then that's what they wish for them! It doesn't have to be about patriarcle (blah blah blah however you spell that I'm sure the police will fix it) bullshit. My Father, for the record, stated "I just want her to be happy", when he finally came to terms with me being gay.

My 2 cents on that part.

As far as nasty words.....Oneida's list says it best. We ALL use derogitory terms at some point in our lives. And they certainly aren't meant to make friends! And yep, it shows our misgivings.

-Mr. Moon

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Mr. Moon

I'm sorry that you were raised in that way, Dylan. It's obviously affected your view on so many things.

My Mom said to me the day after my hysterectomy..."Well now I really know you won't have children". I was pretty stunned, considering she knew I was gay for at least 10 years at that point. No to mention *I* knew I did not and had never wanted children. However, she did not force her view upon me. I get the feeling, Dylan, that you believe thinking about your Daughters AND Sons having a family is a derogotory thing. That is somehow translates to the negative. I have to say, not always. I think it's quite natural for a parent to want the best for thier children. And if they think the white picket fence world is the best thing in the whole world, then that's what they wish for them! It doesn't have to be about patriarcle (blah blah blah however you spell that I'm sure the police will fix it) bullshit. My Father, for the record, stated "I just want her to be happy", when he finally came to terms with me being gay.

My 2 cents on that part.



-Mr. Moon

Moon, I like ya' a lot, and I'm saying this with a lot of respect.

It bothers me that you've made assumptions about the way I was raised and that you've assumed you 'know where my views come from' based on a few sentences I've posted about my mother's Catholic-induced views.

Also, I have no idea how anything I've said in this thread or the other translates into wanting a family is bad. Seriously, if I have posted something in particular that would lead you to think that's what I'm saying, I truly apologize.

Of course (most) people want the best for their kids.

I sincerely have no idea how anything I've said has implied what I've highlighted above


Dylan

[Mr. Moon]

From what I read, that was my take home message.

I'm not gonna play the quote thing. Takes too much time for something that seems silly.

I meant no disrespect. The quote I quoted from you seemed clear to me.

I honestly thought you laid it out there. That's what I got from it.

Again, no disrespect meant, Dylan.
-Mr. Moon

[SuperFemme]

While the discussion on whether or not Mother is Universally sacred is one that is worth having...can we get back to what the OP was about here?

Which is words that we use to hurt each other within the Queer Community and why.

At a recent local event I was asked why I married a "he-she". Who even says that within the contexts of Queer World anymore?
I was stunned into silence to be honest. Which I regret. Because that turned into me being so mad I could only cry and I hate being in that spot.

[Martina]

This phrase has been used a lot against women of color, particularly immigrant women and Latinas. i think it's worth thinking about that.

This is hallmark of postcolonial feminism, this disagreement with western feminists who think of having children as oppressive and dangerous and just ruinous to oneself and society. There are tons of articles about this. Or there were back in the day.

i think characterizing women who have children under circumstances different than we would choose as victims is offensive in the extreme, and it is often women of minority cultures within the U.S. or women of the developing world who get characterized this way.

My instructional assistant, a Latina, is pregnant. This is her third child. She can afford this child. She owns a house. Yadda yadda. When she was talking about what she thought the perfect sized family was -- four children -- my co-teacher, a single white man, rolled his eyes. i am so glad she didn't see.

My uncle, a rich white gay man from LA, and his partner talk alot about how immigrants and their (in their minds, too many) children have overwhelmed and destroyed the public institutions -- hospitals, schools, etc. -- of southern California. Part of their discourse is this totally insincere concern for the poor women who have to carry the burden of taking care of all those children. i like my uncle a lot, but this stuff is racist.

The use of the word we are discussing is often racist, at least here in California.