Breeder and other words we use to hurt our own.

[Martina]

So how about saying parenting is or should be sacred -- in the sense of being among a culture's highest values.

Parenting should be more highly valued and rewarded in our culture.

Raising girls with no other goal other than that they will procreate is dehumanizing. (i don't even like the word "grooming," btw.)

But the people who experience it are still fully human. And parenting itself is not dehumanizing. On the contrary. For most people it is an experience that gets them more in touch with their humanity.

For others it is a nightmare. That is when we should all help.

Part of the reason it isn't as pleasant as it should be here in the west has nothing to do with how voluntary it is, but the fact that parents are left on their own without the support of extended family and community.

But the assumption that women who are parents involuntarily are necessarily living any lesser a life than you and i are is incredibly elitist. Do i think the world should change so that all women get to choose? Absolutely. But those who aren't given the choice in the sense that we mean here -- and that is probably most women on the planet -- are not by definition dehumanized by this. It's arrogant to assume so.

One of my best friends -- a man -- just called. He didn't really want to have kids, but his wife did. He chose to have children in the sense that he didn't absolutely refuse. Well as things turned out, his wife's career took off in a big way. Guess who became the primary caretaker? This has been the case for over 14 years now. This guy is a genius. He is highly educated. He is emotionally healthy. All he has done other than parent for these many years is teach part-time. That's a contribution. But i am sure some people might think all that IQ power and education have gone to waste. i do not. He does not. In fact, he has loved every minute of it. His kids, especially, do not.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Martina

But the assumption that women who are parents involuntarily are necessarily living any lesser a life than you and i are is incredibly elitist. Do i think the world should change so that all women get to choose? Absolutely. But those who aren't given the choice in the sense that we mean here -- and that is probably most women on the planet -- are not by definition dehumanized by this. It's arrogant to assume so.

I'm confused by this assertion. While I think that much of what we assume about the rest of the world can be and is effectually ignorant, I'm unclear on what looks like a contradiction in standards in the above remarks.

While a certain contingent holds that Western interference in, for example, the genital mutilation of girls taking place in certain African nations is misplaced and "elitist," I disagree. I believe that our global citizenship is more important than our ethnocentricities would have us believe, and that while we need always be mindful of other regions' cultures and perspectives, whenever and wherever a woman or girl is being harmed in the name of social ideology, I say down with that social ideology. But that's me, just one of the 'elite.'

Women and girls all over the world are harmed and, in fact, killed because of a lack of access to contraception, no access to safe and legal abortion, and forced social ideologies which impress upon them a standard which says 'no' to education but 'must' to childbirth as soon as their bodies are capable and until their bodies are no longer able. I do not and cannot see how this way of life is acceptable for any of my sisters. I'm just that arrogant.

[Random]

Originally Posted by evolveme

While a certain contingent holds that Western interference in, for example, the genital mutilation of girls taking place in certain African nations is misplaced and "elitist," I disagree. I believe that our global citizenship is more important than our ethnocentricies would have us believe, and that while we need always be mindful of other regions' cultures and perspectives, whenever and wherever a woman or girl is being harmed in the name of social ideology, I say down with that social ideology. But that's me, just one of the 'elite.'

Women and girls all over the world are harmed and, in fact, killed because of a lack of access to contraception, no access to safe and legal abortion, and forced social ideologies which impress upon them a standard which says 'no' to education but 'must' to childbirth as soon as their bodies are capable and until their bodies are no longer able. I do not and cannot see how this way of life is acceptable for any of my sisters. I'm just that arrogant.

I'm one of the people who says that country/nation/people need to do it for themselves, and that it's not the west place to place our standards on any other country but our own..

Not as a cop out.. not because I don't hate what is happening to women/children around the world..

But simply because... The center doesn't hold.

When you try to force your way of thinking on a people who think another way.. It doesn't work.. Because you are going to have to police those people.. Make them live by your laws... Watch them... Make them dependent on someone else to enforce the laws..

It's only when the people of that country/nation/culture stand up for them selves and so.. HELL NO!!!!!! That true change in a positive way is possible... When people are ready and willing to die for that freedom, that change happens...

I come from a very long line of men abusing their women... It was a way of life.. No one thought twice about back handing their wife is she got smart with them...

My mom tells the story of the first time my dad went to swing at her.. She told him, that he had better kill her with that first blow, because she wasn't going to be hit and if that meant she had to kill him first, then that was alright with her.. (paraphrase)

My parents have been married 45 yrs in September and he has never laid a hand on her... Some of her sisters weren't so lucky.... Some of my cousins... But some were.. and from my mother generation, the cycle has been broken for them and their daughters... It spreads out like a wave...

I have never been hit by a lover, partner, or boyfriend... Because of my mother.. Because i say.. you better kill me.. because I'm NOT being hit.. It's something I am willing to die over...

In my mind it's always like an abused person... You can remove them, you can councile them, but until they are ready, change is not happening..

We can offer resorces, support, money.. But they have to do the work...

[evolveme]

Random,

While I hear what you're saying, this essentially sounds like the Bootstraps argument to me. Sometimes, somebody ain't got no straps, you know what I'm saying? There has been a time that I was so down that not even my own legs would hold me.

Granted, it takes more than coming in and stopping the immediate threat to truly end a systemic problem like global reproductive rights issues. I certainly don't have the answers. The whole system of patriarchal influence needs to go, if you ask me (and clearly that's not a real-world plan for the time being).

People (women & girls especially) need help. They need to help each other.

[Dylan]

I wonder why conversations about U.S. specific sexism and misogyny always/often turn into conversation about global sexism and misogyny and focusing on issues "over there".

I still contend that women/girls ARE *still* seen as baby makers, and I also still contend that they're groomed to be such the second they come out of the womb in this country...this one, right c'here.

I also still contend that this originally stems from thousands of years of religious tyranny, and that it is fully perpetuated in children's television/advertising/clothing options/etc.

I would also like to add that the Sacred Mother b.s. is what keeps many women covered in burqas and such (which many people on this site find offensive to women, yet some of those same people don't see how we do the same thing in this country to 'protect' our women).


Dylan...intrigued by many things today

P.S. If someone would please change the weather in Austin to something more pleasant, I would immediately get offline

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I would also like to add that the Sacred Mother b.s. is what keeps many women covered in burqas and such

i can't resist. Dylan, this is SO second wave.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I wonder why conversations about U.S. specific sexism and misogyny always/often turn into conversation about global sexism and misogyny and focusing on issues "over there".

I still contend that women/girls ARE *still* seen as baby makers, and I also still contend that they're groomed to be such the second they come out of the womb in this country...this one, right c'here.

I also still contend that this originally stems from thousands of years of religious tyranny, and that it is fully perpetuated in children's television/advertising/clothing options/etc.

I would also like to add that the Sacred Mother b.s. is what keeps many women covered in burqas and such (which many people on this site find offensive to women, yet some of those same people don't see how we do the same thing in this country to 'protect' our women).

i agree and i woke up wondering how all/any women (the ones here posting now) side-stepped the female-indoctrination in our society.

*and i had pretty "liberal" parents/was raised in southern california. i knew my 'place' and what was expected of me as *female*. also, i think people may *know* now the difference but it's one thing to learn some theory (as an adult), quite another thing to have experienced a pretty average childhood where you watched some tv, attended school (not home-schooled), went to a few friends' houses, had some religion or not--the media (even if you never watched TV) exposes you to society's expectations.

[Random]

Originally Posted by evolveme

Random,

While I hear what you're saying, this essentially sounds like the Bootstraps argument to me. Sometimes, somebody ain't got no straps, you know what I'm saying? There has been a time that I was so down that not even my own legs would hold me.

Granted, it takes more than coming in and stopping the immediate threat to truly end a systemic problem like global reproductive rights issues. I certainly don't have the answers. The whole system of patriarchal influence needs to go, if you ask me (and clearly that's not a real-world plan for the time being).

People (women & girls especially) need help. They need to help each other.

I actually totaly agree with you...

Help, support, education is needed... But to use your analagy... they are your legs to support you.. no one else's will work for you.. Because in the end.. there is only you who can say what is worth the price that needs to be paid..

[Martina]

Originally Posted by evolveme

While a certain contingent holds that Western interference in, for example, the genital mutilation of girls taking place in certain African nations is misplaced and "elitist," I disagree.

i do too. And that's an extreme example of . . . of not what we are talking about.

Originally Posted by evolveme

whenever and wherever a woman or girl is being harmed in the name of social ideology, I say down with that social ideology. But that's me, just one of the 'elite.'

Calling the parenthood of people who may not have had an option to be other than parents a form of harm is extremely ethnocentric and privileged.

Originally Posted by evolveme

Women and girls all over the world are harmed and, in fact, killed because of a lack of access to contraception, no access to safe and legal abortion, and forced social ideologies which impress upon them a standard which says 'no' to education but 'must' to childbirth as soon as their bodies are capable and until their bodies are no longer able.

And these are extreme cases. Not uncommon, but extreme. It is not how most women of the world feel about being parents. And to characterize their parenthood exclusively in these pathological terms is ethnocentric.

i just read a book called Three Cups of Tea about building schools in rural Pakistan. It's amazing how much those villagers -- the men of those villages -- want their daughters to be educated. Were there a few asshole mullahs saying it's wrong? Yes. There are places in the world where we only hear bad stories about -- places where miracles are happening.

WHo would have imagined thirty years ago the success that international development has had through investing in women's work -- the work of mothers who want money to educate their children. They are changing the world -- for all of us.