Politics-What's on your mind?

[cathexis]

Originally Posted by Orema

WTF? You'll need to get this lesson from another.

Don't ask me to explain or help you understand shit like this. I'm not here for that.

I'm in pain. I wake up each morning to another horrible story about Black people being tackled, shot at, or killed and the last thing I want to do is explain shit like this.

Sorry for hitting a raw nerve. I understand your pain. The Jewish Community, of which I belong. has had more than its share of pain. Why the "WTF" response, thought I approached the issue with due sensitivity and respect? As Jews, we (the Jewish Community)are also experiencing hate. Jews have been the object of hate since the Middle Ages. When hate is rampant in a community, anti-Semitism is also present. We have been blamed for everything from "blood libel" to current-era pedophilia.

We've had Orthodox school children run over upon exiting school buses and Rabbis killed in their homes while saying Kaddish (mourner's prayers (said daily for a year after family members with a minion of 12), Synagogues shot up killing worshippers, spat on, hit, yelled at, and I'm sure that's not the full extent of it. Who did the Nazis chant about at Charlottesville? It wasn't "you will not replace us." It was "Jews will not replace us!" All less than80 years from the Holocaust where 6,000,000 Jew lost their lives at the hand of Fascists like those white supremacists today who are indeed Fascists.

My community is suffering as is yours. Please do NOT treat me like some "woke" white person as that doesn't apply here.

Sorry, I brought this line of questioning to BFP. Guess I'll go to one of my other sites to ask this and risk rebuff and rejection there. Orema, I actually thought you would not give this response to my carefully and sensitively worded question or I would not have picked that scab.

[Orema]

Originally Posted by cathexis

Sorry for hitting a raw nerve. I understand your pain. The Jewish Community, of which I belong. has had more than its share of pain. Why the "WTF" response, thought I approached the issue with due sensitivity and respect? As Jews, we (the Jewish Community)are also experiencing hate. Jews have been the object of hate since the Middle Ages. When hate is rampant in a community, anti-Semitism is also present. We have been blamed for everything from "blood libel" to current-era pedophilia.

We've had Orthodox school children run over upon exiting school buses and Rabbis killed in their homes while saying Kaddish (mourner's prayers (said daily for a year after family members with a minion of 12), Synagogues shot up killing worshippers, spat on, hit, yelled at, and I'm sure that's not the full extent of it. Who did the Nazis chant about at Charlottesville? It wasn't "you will not replace us." It was "Jews will not replace us!" All less than80 years from the Holocaust where 6,000,000 Jew lost their lives at the hand of Fascists like those white supremacists today who are indeed Fascists.

My community is suffering as is yours. Please do NOT treat me like some "woke" white person as that doesn't apply here.

Sorry, I brought this line of questioning to BFP. Guess I'll go to one of my other sites to ask this and risk rebuff and rejection there. Orema, I actually thought you would not give this response to my carefully and sensitively worded question or I would not have picked that scab.

But you didn't bring your question to BFP, you brought them to me, specifically, and I suspect (and expect) you already know the answer based on your education and experience.

I'm not sure why you were initially embarrassed to ask the question but I would follow that lead when wanting to ask BIPOC or LGBTQ+ people (or almost anyone else) to explain their outliers.

[cathexis]

Originally Posted by Orema

But you didn't bring your question to BFP, you brought them to me, specifically, and I suspect (and expect) you already know the answer based on your education and experience.

I'm not sure why you were initially embarrassed to ask the question but I would follow that lead when wanting to ask BIPOC or LGBTQ+ people (or almost anyone else) to explain their outliers.

It is not my intention to engage in a personal attack. Thought we had a better online friendship than most of the interactions I have here. All of my personal interactions have been online (except with my partner) for the past several years mostly due to the hate and disgust shown to transgender people and Jews in my area.

These are my personal issues, not a justification but perhaps an explanation for why I asked you. I realize that many people on this site dislike me, not sure why. No one has told me. Yes, I am educated but also obtuse at times. Perhaps, much of this is related to why I chose to ask you.

The embarrassment about asking anyone my question is more related to strained social interactions than the question itself, but again my issue.

[BullDog]

White people are never asked to be a spokesperson for white people to explain someone’s violent, bizarre or idiotic behavior or beliefs. Why did that white person do that, white person?

I have no clue why bat shit crazy Ginny Thomas is such a traitor to our country or why she supports a racist white nationalist party when she is married to a black man. I couldn’t tell you and no one expects me as a random white person to have the answers.

[Orema]

Originally Posted by BullDog

White people are never asked to be a spokesperson for white people to explain someone’s violent, bizarre or idiotic behavior or beliefs. Why did that white person do that, white person?

I have no clue why bat shit crazy Ginny Thomas is such a traitor to our country or why she supports a racist white nationalist party when she is married to a black man. I couldn’t tell you and no one expects me as a random white person to have the answers.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by cathexis

It is not my intention to engage in a personal attack. Thought we had a better online friendship than most of the interactions I have here. All of my personal interactions have been online (except with my partner) for the past several years mostly due to the hate and disgust shown to transgender people and Jews in my area.

These are my personal issues, not a justification but perhaps an explanation for why I asked you. I realize that many people on this site dislike me, not sure why. No one has told me. Yes, I am educated but also obtuse at times. Perhaps, much of this is related to why I chose to ask you.

The embarrassment about asking anyone my question is more related to strained social interactions than the question itself, but again my issue.

cathexis,

Bulldog explained it correctly.

l lashed out at you because of your inappropriate expectation of me and not for any other reasons.

Everything I mentioned (my pain, your education, etc) was not to challenge you in those areas, but to give you context on why I wasn't answering your question.

[FireSignFemme]

“Sorry, I brought this line of questioning to BFP. Guess I'll go to one of my other sites to ask this and risk rebuff and rejection there...”

Have fun. Careful with the door.

[cathexis]

Originally Posted by BullDog

White people are never asked to be a spokesperson for white people to explain someone's violent, bizarre or idiotic behavior or beliefs. Why did that white person do that, white person?

I have no clue why bat shit crazy Ginny Thomas is such a traitor to our country or why she supports a racist white nationalist party when she is married to a black man. I couldn't tell you and no one expects me as a random white person to have the answers.

Originally Posted by Orema

Thank you.



cathexis,

Bulldog explained it correctly.

l lashed out at you because of your inappropriate expectation of me and not for any other reasons.

Everything I mentioned (my pain, your education, etc) was not to challenge you in those areas, but to give you context on why I wasn't answering your question.

Perhaps, what Bulldog wrote was something that applied to their situation.

I have been asked to explain the Holocaust to non-Jews because of not looking obviously Semitic.

How white supremacist militias can justify their existence.

Why did Dylann Roof feel so much hate as to go into a black majority church and murder nine little girls and injuring many other adults in South Carolina then wave the Confederate Battle Flag defiantly.

Additionally, why neo-Nazis wanted to march in predominately Jewish Skokie and why a Jewish ACLU attorney chose to defend them using the Constitutionally guaranteed right to free speech.

I answered these questions without negative attitudes towards the querent.

Orema, my reason for asking you was to gather your insight into why he might think and behave in that manner. The basis was intellectual curiosity.

Thank you for coming back with a response that was less emotion and more reason. I often miss the information when mixed with anger. My issue and not related to anything amiss from you.

[Orema]

Originally Posted by cathexis

Perhaps, what Bulldog wrote was something that applied to their situation.

I have been asked to explain the Holocaust to non-Jews because of not looking obviously Semitic.

How white supremacist militias can justify their existence.

Why did Dylann Roof feel so much hate as to go into a black majority church and murder nine little girls and injuring many other adults in South Carolina then wave the Confederate Battle Flag defiantly.

Additionally, why neo-Nazis wanted to march in predominately Jewish Skokie and why a Jewish ACLU attorney chose to defend them using the Constitutionally guaranteed right to free speech.

I answered these questions without negative attitudes towards the querent.

Orema, my reason for asking you was to gather your insight into why he might think and behave in that manner. The basis was intellectual curiosity.

Thank you for coming back with a response that was less emotion and more reason. I often miss the information when mixed with anger. My issue and not related to anything amiss from you.

Perhaps?

I’m stunned that you refuse to accept my reason and still feel entitled to an answer from me.

I will leave you to yourself.

[cathexis]

Originally Posted by Orema

Perhaps?

I'm stunned that you refuse to accept my reason and still feel entitled to an answer from me.

I will leave you to yourself.

Going back through the dialogue to share with my partner, I feel it necessary for me to make a follow-up. It is not that I continued to insist on a different answer. I accepted the one you gave.

Reading through the whole argument, I was reacting to the anger. Felt like I was jumped rather than given an answer on your first response. Tell me instead of coming out with teeth and claws if you feel like a question is inappropriate. I don't understand why this whole political argument couldn't have been civil, which applies to everyone involved.

I received an answer to my original question elsewhere. We have an ongoing discussion on the topic, so I will bow out of this dialogue.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by cathexis

Perhaps, what Bulldog wrote was something that applied to their situation.

I have been asked to explain the Holocaust to non-Jews because of not looking obviously Semitic.

How white supremacist militias can justify their existence.

Why did Dylann Roof feel so much hate as to go into a black majority church and murder nine little girls and injuring many other adults in South Carolina then wave the Confederate Battle Flag defiantly.

Additionally, why neo-Nazis wanted to march in predominately Jewish Skokie and why a Jewish ACLU attorney chose to defend them using the Constitutionally guaranteed right to free speech.

I answered these questions without negative attitudes towards the querent.

Orema, my reason for asking you was to gather your insight into why he might think and behave in that manner. The basis was intellectual curiosity.

Thank you for coming back with a response that was less emotion and more reason. I often miss the information when mixed with anger. My issue and not related to anything amiss from you.

What an arrogant, ignorant response. Yes what I described absolutely applies to you and you’ve proven it with every comment you make. You are engaged in typical white person behavior and not listening to anything Orema is saying to you and taking it personally and making it all about you and feeling entitled. Typical white person behavior. Ugh.

[JDeere]

As a mixed person of other ethnic backgrounds, mainly Native American, I can not answer that question, as part of the white Eurpoean background either.

I can only speak for how I was raised and by whom I was raised, my personal experiences as well.

A white person has no say in a POC's personal experiences, even if the Jews, Native Americans, etc have all had bad experiences.

A POC can not speak for a white person

A Latino/a, Hispanic, Mexican, El Salvadorian, etc cant speak for white people

my whole point is, one race can NOT speak for another on certain personal bad experiences.

[cathexis]

Originally Posted by BullDog

What an arrogant, ignorant response. Yes, what I described absolutely applies to you and you’ve proven it with every comment you make. You are engaged in typical white person behavior and not listening to anything Orema is saying to you and taking it personally and making it all about you and feeling entitled. Typical white person behavior. Ugh.

You've got no idea about my background or what qualifications I have. Your behavior shows how little you know about people and their psychology. Your response disgusts me.

The response undoubtedly stems from online dialogues had in the past that included people not currently active on BFP. Ones in which Anya, you, and I engaged in contentious banter about earlier political elections. Ones that proved your political assertions incorrect.

Your attempts to belittle me are inconsistent with intelligent online discourse.

[Semantics]

Originally Posted by cathexis

Sorry for hitting a raw nerve. I understand your pain. The Jewish Community, of which I belong. has had more than its share of pain. Why the "WTF" response, thought I approached the issue with due sensitivity and respect? As Jews, we (the Jewish Community)are also experiencing hate. Jews have been the object of hate since the Middle Ages. When hate is rampant in a community, anti-Semitism is also present. We have been blamed for everything from "blood libel" to current-era pedophilia.

We've had Orthodox school children run over upon exiting school buses and Rabbis killed in their homes while saying Kaddish (mourner's prayers (said daily for a year after family members with a minion of 12), Synagogues shot up killing worshippers, spat on, hit, yelled at, and I'm sure that's not the full extent of it. Who did the Nazis chant about at Charlottesville? It wasn't "you will not replace us." It was "Jews will not replace us!" All less than80 years from the Holocaust where 6,000,000 Jew lost their lives at the hand of Fascists like those white supremacists today who are indeed Fascists.

My community is suffering as is yours. Please do NOT treat me like some "woke" white person as that doesn't apply here.

Sorry, I brought this line of questioning to BFP. Guess I'll go to one of my other sites to ask this and risk rebuff and rejection there. Orema, I actually thought you would not give this response to my carefully and sensitively worded question or I would not have picked that scab.

As a jew living in an increasingly fascist, right-wing state, sometimes I worry I'll eventually end up in a cattle car. Still, I'm white. I can walk through a department store without being followed by security, and I can take a drive in my car without worrying much about being pulled over and murdered by police. I get really irritated when white jews (and yeah, I know some jews don't claim to be white, and some aren't white, but most jews are white passing) compare their experiences to what POC go through.

You asked Orema to provide you with emotional labor and education, and POC are exhausted by that. Racial trauma is real.

Your response was lousy with white fragility. I hope you can work on that instead of being so defensive. The best that most white people can hope to be are "recovering racists" and it's a lifetime of work.

[cathexis]

Originally Posted by Cin

It seems as though you really cannot understand what it was you did that was so triggering and so you continue to double and triple down on it. It is very alarming. It feels like it's just something that you can't see, like the air that you breathe for example. And there is nothing that has happened thus far in these interactions that would give me hope that it will become clear to you if it is just explained once more. But for reasons that are unclear to me, I still believe, despite years of evidence to the contrary garnered during many discussion about many issues in which I have failed miserably to explain successfully to another person reasons for which they should change their point of view on a particular subject, that perhaps this time it will be different. So I am compelled to try.

The issue is very simple. One should not ask a person to explain why others who are the same race, religion, gender or whatever do the things they do. Nobody should be made to feel responsible for explaining the actions of others of their group. Why would a person of color have a better answer for you regarding the behavior and choices of other POC? And more importantly why would it be their job to explain it to you? A white person is not expected to answer for all white people. Perhaps that is a good rule of thumb ... before you ask a person to answer for others, think about if you would seek out the only white person in the room and ask them to explain, oh, I don't know, for example maybe, why some white people cannot recognize their white privilege. Or why some white people confuse white privilege with other issues for which the white person might be oppressed. For example, you can be a privileged white person and be socio-economically oppressed. Apples and oranges. And understanding your white privilege does not negate your disadvantages in other areas. So it is always best not to try and compare them.

Also, white privilege is something that you cannot refuse as a white person. It is given to you and it is not earned and cannot be declined, all youcan do is recognize it and drag it out into the light at all opportunities. That and not ask a person of color to explain the motivations of other persons of color. Your posts thus far have given the impression that you don't agree and feel there is no harm in asking a person of color to explain the actions of another person of color as though they are all the same and understand each other's motivations perfectly and/or want to expend the energy to explain it to a white person. Also you seem to understand and allow for your response to what you perceive as anger or attacks, but can't seem to be capable of imagining how it makes Orema feel when you ask her questions like that. How it might bring up all kinds of crap for her. And how frustrating it might be to always have to be prepared for the unfeeling and insensitive interactions that can trigger all sorts of unsolicited, unwelcome and complicated emotions.

Originally Posted by Semantics

As a jew living in an increasingly fascist, right-wing state, sometimes I worry I'll eventually end up in a cattle car. Still, I'm white. I can walk through a department store without being followed by security, and I can take a drive in my car without worrying much about being pulled over and murdered by police. I get really irritated when white jews (and yeah, I know some jews don't claim to be white, and some aren't white, but most jews are white passing) compare their experiences to what POC go through.

You asked Orema to provide you with emotional labor and education, and POC are exhausted by that. Racial trauma is real.

Your response was lousy with white fragility. I hope you can work on that instead of being so defensive. The best that most white people can hope to be are "recovering racists" and it's a lifetime of work.

No more, no f*cking more, it's over and done. Perhaps as a person with Aspberger's, I fail in my communication skills. Neither of you seems to have read through the entire dialogue, and I think you read the Cliff Notes version. Believe that I have made an apology to Orema.

Genuinely sorry I even checked back to read any response. Yes, I acknowledge my white privilege. Next time, I will not engage a POC in a discussion regarding their opinion of ANY other person's action online here and not anywhere in person even as others ask me to explain people's actions. This pushes me further into the cave of my mind. I had been making strides in outside communication.

Thanks all for jumping me swiftly during progress so to make the retreat a bit easier.

[kittygrrl]

I think we should all calm down and learn from each other...if a person is mistaken or you don't agree maybe we could discreetly ask for clarification instead of assuming we know more or better or anything..i know there are those here who would say (and they would be dead right)..."that's rich coming from you as you were always quick to jump in when you didn't agree or thought someone's opinion very wrong" well i've learned and been humbled(& grateful for it) and realized i need to sit quietly sometimes and think before i rage...Let's be kind & realize we all need to be heard, & we are always learning something from each other hopefully, for the better, til our end...i hope we can all learn (from each other) from our own mis-steps. Perfection in thought ..is there such thing? No, at least I haven't found it. We are all on a journey together. Thank you all for your contributions to this thread...I have learned to treasure all your words.

[Orema]

Originally Posted by kittygrrl

I think we should all calm down and learn from each other...if a person is mistaken or you don't agree maybe we could discreetly ask for clarification instead of assuming we know more or better or anything..i know there are those here who would say (and they would be dead right)..."that's rich coming from you as you were always quick to jump in when you didn't agree or thought someone's opinion very wrong" well i've learned and been humbled(& grateful for it) and realized i need to sit quietly sometimes and think before i rage...Let's be kind & realize we all need to be heard, & we are always learning something from each other hopefully, for the better, til our end...i hope we can all learn (from each other) from our own mis-steps. Perfection in thought ..is there such thing? No, at least I haven't found it. We are all on a journey together. Thank you all for your contributions to this thread...I have learned to treasure all your words.

No.

cathexis was wrong to push me on this. Then cathexis lied by saying or implying that they apologized to me for their insistent behavior.

I had planned on moving on but only returned to this discussion when I saw the lies and nonsense in cathexis’s last post.

You can Kumbaya all you want, kittygrrl, but you can count me out.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by kittygrrl

I think we should all calm down and learn from each other...if a person is mistaken or you don't agree maybe we could discreetly ask for clarification instead of assuming we know more or better or anything..i know there are those here who would say (and they would be dead right)..."that's rich coming from you as you were always quick to jump in when you didn't agree or thought someone's opinion very wrong" well i've learned and been humbled(& grateful for it) and realized i need to sit quietly sometimes and think before i rage...Let's be kind & realize we all need to be heard, & we are always learning something from each other hopefully, for the better, til our end...i hope we can all learn (from each other) from our own mis-steps. Perfection in thought ..is there such thing? No, at least I haven't found it. We are all on a journey together. Thank you all for your contributions to this thread...I have learned to treasure all your words.

When the person who started all the trouble to begin with shows no signs of being willing to learn from anyone and acts like they are the one who is being mistreated then this is impossible to do in any way that would be positive or productive. I’m not showing kindness towards such egregious behavior.

[kittygrrl]

Originally Posted by BullDog

When the person who started all the trouble to begin with shows no signs of being willing to learn from anyone and acts like they are the one who is being mistreated then this is impossible to do in any way that would be positive or productive. I’m not showing kindness towards such egregious behavior.

Bulldog, you have a great mind..very great..so i will not attempt to persuade you ...so what do you suggest we do with people who don't see it our way? kick all the people we don't agree with out? ostracize them?, lock them up?, make them behave? civilized people don't consider these options..we must find options that feed the soul..finding common ground, being as positive as you can be, not leaving the conversation, will go a long way ..is it easy..no, at least not for me, it's incredibly hard, but i find the biggest battle within my own mind..just my thoughts, thanks for listening

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by kittygrrl

Bulldog, you have a great mind..very great..so i will not attempt to persuade you ...so what do you suggest we do with people who don't see it our way? kick all the people we don't agree with out? ostracize them?, lock them up?, make them behave? civilized people don't consider these options..we must find options that feed the soul..finding common ground, being as positive as you can be, not leaving the conversation, will go a long way ..is it easy..no, at least not for me, it's incredibly hard, but i find the biggest battle within my own mind..just my thoughts, thanks for listening

I wish I had an answer to how to solve racism and white privilege. Unfortunately, I do not. In this situation, I feel people have shown great restraint and just been very straightforward with the person, yet he feels wronged. He tells Orema to not be so emotional (which is very rude and arrogant) when all of his posts are highly emotional and he's been very nasty to her, me, Cin, and Semantics - basically everyone who spoke out. What he did is not okay and showing kindness may sound nice but all that does is give him permission to think what he did was okay. Seems there is no solution other than to drop the matter and hope for the best that he doesn't do it again.

I am not the most patient person in the world and I am sure there are times when it would be a good idea to try to step back and see the situation from their point of view and show restraint. So I don't think your suggestions are without merit. However, in this situation, I don't think kindness is going to help at all. I think being very clear and straightforward is the best approach and I feel that is what people have done. In order for us all to learn from each other, everyone needs to be willing to learn. Probably best to go our separate ways.