Trans and Relationship's

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by June

Dylan -- Who is saying that? Did you read me as saying it? Or have you experienced others saying it? Your use of *most* is confusing to me. Was there a poll or survey I missed?

I read gayla as saying that

You said, you'd read a cis married woman as 'questioning'.

You also said it would be problematic to you if a there were a (straight) man on the site who was only into straight women

Comments have been made all over both sites throughout the years

Met said it in a thread not that long ago...can't remember the thread...maybe the expectations thread? I'll find it.

Seriously, it's been said in the past. Additionally, whenever the idea of hets on the site comes up, it *usually* (and honestly, I can only remember one exception, right now and that was OBB saying married women are not lesbians) turns into a conversation about how the site will be 'invaded' by straight men being pigs.

I don't know how One would poll it...I don't even know how to make a poll. Hell, I don't even know if my membership lets me make a poll. Too bad we couldn't do it now without unbiased answers based on this thread.


Dylan

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Dylan

What I think is funny (not ha ha) is that *most* people are ok with allowing a cis het woman who's married come on and stuff, and wouldn't have *too* much of an issue with it, but people *would* have an issue with a het guy coming onto the site.

Dylan

Just for the record... yep except it wasn't really about straight men, but a response to you're questions why does the community use the word "transman" instead of man when referring to men of trans experience and also why femmes may be attracted to transmen but not cis straight men.

Originally Posted by Me from the "expectations thread"

Who belongs here? Anyone who feels like they belong here and feel a connection to these things in what-ever way.

That said there aren't any men who aren't of a trans experience here (that I know of nor have I seen any before), not because it's law but because they don't feel any connection apparently. Perhaps this is part the reason a few femmes feel a connection to transmen and not other men. Maybe sometimes, it's really a lot simpler motive (rather than making a distinction of traits) or what-ever when people make the distinction of transman rather than man... even just that some peeps be making things clearer for their own personal reasons b/c some might wonder why there's a man of non-trans experience on the site if they never mention he's of trans experience?

Ok, that's outta the way...

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by June

I would stick my neck out (put the damn hatchett down!) and say that the VAST majority of Femme's who participate on this site are NOT interested in the attention of straight, cis men. Now, there may be some Bi Femmes who are, and that's fine, but this site is not geared towards Bi cis women hooking up with Bi cis men. Can we agree to that?

And I really need you (since no one else is questioning my intent) to understand what I am saying about men who have left our community in search of straight women, failed and came back after having loudly announcing they were only interested in STRAIGHT women. And yeah, I have seen it, and yeah, it pisses me the fuck off because it implies that Femme's are 2nd rate and less desireable, and that is not okay behavior to me. And I feel really strongly about this one piece, which is why I am taking the time to clarify.

Well, here's the thing, I would wonder why any straight ID'd person who wants nothing to do with the queer community would be here.

But why why why is it only assumed that very few femmes here would be interested? What about butches or transguys? Do they count? Or is it just about the assumption that femmes wouldn't be interested? Why is there NO assumption at all about what butches or transguys would be interested in?

And again, why is it assumed a man would only be interested in femmes? Perhaps that man is interested in butches?

I'm just curious about these repeated assumptions...in a queer community.

Also, why is it more acceptable if say a cis woman were to come here *questioning* her sexuality, but it's not ok if a man is here questioning *his* sexuality?

You said yourself if a cis woman married to a cis man were to come here, you're assumption would be (not that she IDs as queer, but) that she's 'questioning'. What if she made a few stupid comments while she were here *testing out the waters* or *questioning* her shit?

Now, I'm seriously NOT condoning anyone making stupid comments, and I've seen some of the comments re: straight women. I'm not condoning that. I am saying that I don't think One's queer ID has necessarily something to do with whom One is interested in partnering with.

I mean, frankly, I don't understand wanting to be on a queer site if you don't ID with the queer community. But again, I'm just really (truly) intrigued by some of the assumptions.


Dylan...I feel like we're starting to talk in circles.

[Gayla]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Dylan...I feel like we're starting to talk in circles.

I kinda feel like we are, too. I also am starting to feel a little schizophrenic because I'm having a number of conversations about this in different places. I would encourage those of you PM'ing me to post here because I think it would lead to some good conversations. (Not to mention, make me look a less crazy.)

At the core, I think we all have certain assumptions about what b-f community is and who is a part of it. My assumption is that the active members of this site will primarily be butch or femme and that their primary attractions will be to butches or femmes. I also assume that there are a number of people here that may not currently ID as butch or femme but have had some type of history with the community, or history of a b-f identity, to feel a sense of belonging here.

I do not assume that there are a significant number of heterosexual cis men actively participating here or that they are here in search of heterosexual cis women to partner with. I guess I'm trying to figure out if you're saying that we should assume that or that we should just not have assumptions about anything ever here.

[Jett]

I want to make clear I responding to why a cis het man would "be more suspect" than a cis het female or responded to perhaps differently. Not whether they should be welcomed on the site.

*Sam... not to be completely derailing... to you're OP. I personally don't have any issues with transmen who feel a connection to this community dating within it but yeah I'm sure some do.

To me it should be obvious that in that connection is the reason for their being here and belonging here just as much as anyone else with that connection.

I hate the "who belongs here" conversations (not in this context Sam ) because I think that's for the individual to decide for themselves whether the feel a part of it, it's a personal thing and not up for anyone else to say what anyone is or feels.

Sorry you've had that experience.

Metro

[Sam]

Originally Posted by June

Inquisitive June thinks you might be looking for someone to say "Because the Butch/Femme dynamic as presented/repreresented in communities like this historically pertain to female bodied people" so we can play AHA! I think it's deeper than that with so many of our members now not IDing as female anything. So, while it may have started out that way, it is no longer true and we (as in all of us who engage on some level) are involved in the evolution of this community. And for me, as a Femme and a human, it is often a painful to watch and engage in.

Great Post!!!!

this is a great dialog because you are NOT narrow minded. I truly wish there were more people out there that actually could stop and think about ID's.

We all ID as someone, be it trans, male, butch, femme, queer and SO ON...

But the community has a foundation, and we all need to connect in the way our minds want to connect.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Well, here's the thing, I would wonder why any straight ID'd person who wants nothing to do with the queer community would be here.

But why why why is it only assumed that very few femmes here would be interested? What about butches or transguys? Do they count? Or is it just about the assumption that femmes wouldn't be interested? Why is there NO assumption at all about what butches or transguys would be interested in?

And again, why is it assumed a man would only be interested in femmes? Perhaps that man is interested in butches?

I'm just curious about these repeated assumptions...in a queer community.

Also, why is it more acceptable if say a cis woman were to come here *questioning* her sexuality, but it's not ok if a man is here questioning *his* sexuality?

You said yourself if a cis woman married to a cis man were to come here, you're assumption would be (not that she IDs as queer, but) that she's 'questioning'. What if she made a few stupid comments while she were here *testing out the waters* or *questioning* her shit?

Now, I'm seriously NOT condoning anyone making stupid comments, and I've seen some of the comments re: straight women. I'm not condoning that. I am saying that I don't think One's queer ID has necessarily something to do with whom One is interested in partnering with.

I mean, frankly, I don't understand wanting to be on a queer site if you don't ID with the queer community. But again, I'm just really (truly) intrigued by some of the assumptions.


Dylan...I feel like we're starting to talk in circles.

To me this is a no-brainer-

Why do people do anything we don't understand? I don't understand certain relationship dynamics and choose not to participate in them, but not much surprises me these days. This is not to be obnoxious, I promise... I am not into the diaper fetish-not my cup of tea, but I've poked around on some sites because over the years because I'm oddly intrigued by what the "draw" is...

Also, I have some het friends who have asked me numerous questions over the years about me/my community/my identity. I have of course, dialogued with them...but I also have told them about the site(s) I participate in and who knows maybe they joined to educate themselves? I am taking the greater good side, here...and I am sure there are weirdos who join the site for some creepy fetish or to be an asshat.

Originally Posted by June

Sometimes, Dylan, all kidding aside, it feels like you are looking for answers to extreme hypothetical situations. So much of how I respond to individuals has to do with how they couch their involvement here. I can't say for sure what I would do/say or how I would feel if a cis man came here and started a thread claiming space for his own personal exploration into his sexuality. I have never seen that happen. Conversely, I have seen many cis women married to cis men come to these sites over the years and say "Hi, I think I might be a (insert ID here) and I want to talk about it". Many of them are still here with us, years later.

Inquisitive June thinks you might be looking for someone to say "Because the Butch/Femme dynamic as presented/repreresented in communities like this historically pertain to female bodied people" so we can play AHA! I think it's deeper than that with so many of our members now not IDing as female anything. So, while it may have started out that way, it is no longer true and we (as in all of us who engage on some level) are involved in the evolution of this community. And for me, as a Femme and a human, it is often a painful to watch and engage in.

Ditto this. Sometimes I feel like we go around and around doing the:

What if ________?
What about _________?

Of the 1200 members of the site, what if ONE person was offended by the word: PINK; are we going to ban the word PINK because one person might fly off the handle? When it is not a word that has ever been thought of as offensive? Or even the word Gay. Some don't like it, some might even feel it is offensive, but what does the MAJORITY feel? We get so much into the "one in a million" conversations that to me, it becomes pointless. I'm not saying we shouldn't be sensitive and recognize our behavior and language, but this "extreme case" kind of dialoguing is so laborious.

[Gayla]

As I've been thinking about this more over the last couple of days, I think for me it just gets back to that question of belonging. Looking back at the original post, it does kind of come down to that. "Do I belong here if..."

For so long, many of us, have felt excluded from so many different communities that there is a regular (if not constant) need for validation that I fit here and can claim this community as my own. I also think that we work so hard at being inclusive of every different ID that it starts to sound "bad" if we exclude anyone. The just plain truth of the matter is that, in my opinion, this site is not a place where straight, cis gendered men belong.

I'm not naive enough to think that they would never be here, whether that's just in passing, lurking or actually creating a user account and participating on some level. The anonymity of the Interwebs allows anyone to be anything and I'm sure there are some guys who come here thinking it's a porn site and decide it would be fun to stick around. The thought is a little creepy to me because I tend to think everyone is who they say they are but, again, I'm not naive enough to think it doesn't happen. I also think that if someone where to out themselves as a straight, cis gendered male that we would be respectful of whatever situation brought them here and, if nothing else, point them in directions that may more closely resemble what they were looking for in the first place.

But, I don't think I would go so far as to welcome them and try to convince everyone that we should be inclusive of them in some way. And I think that's perfectly ok.

[Jett]

I would be more suspect, even if the cis het man said he was exploring (questioning) his cis het male status and it would have zero to do with "who's welcome here" or not.

I don't like that it's that way but considering the history of online sexual predators of which the vast majority are male (I think it's like 99% but know it's like upper 90th percentile), coupled with men who find lesbianism, or female queers arousing, add the plethora of porn available depicting the rapes of lesbians and the history of violence against women by males... etc. etc. etc. I believe there's adequate well documented reasons for more concern as to why a cis het male would be cruising for these sites.

I think it would be a bad idea for us to just put our guard down and swing our arms open and hey, meet ya for coffee type interaction we more normally are able to enjoy with each other.

If he did say he was questioning I would absolutely be welcoming, but I would be have a good deal of caution in my mind whether I like it or not. The society we live in has shown extremely clearly over and over why we should be more cautious of men, as a female, than I would around other females.

It's unfortunate yes, especially if he's really questioning, It's not pretty but I don't think it's sexist, we're not responsible for that type of reaction to the situation. Other men who've perpetuated the violence and created that history and hence ingrained reaction are responsible.