Butch & Transmen Friendship: Mutual Support

[Liam]

When a person stumbles and falls next to me, I don't stop to figure out their gender, I don't ask them how they identify—I give them my hand, and help them up. Labels help us communicate who we are, to each other, they are not necessarily definitive, they are not always binding. Regardless of which label we use to describe ourselves, there is one thing we all have in common—we are all human beings. I am quite tired of divisive discussions; it doesn't feel good to feel isolated or estranged from others, I'm hungry to feel a sense of unity.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Liam

When a person stumbles and falls next to me, I don't stop to figure out their gender, I don't ask them how they identify—I give them my hand, and help them up. Labels help us communicate who we are, to each other, they are not necessarily definitive, they are not always binding. Regardless of which label we use to describe ourselves, there is one thing we all have in common—we are all human beings. I am quite tired of divisive discussions; it doesn't feel good to feel isolated or estranged from others, I'm hungry to feel a sense of unity.

Yes! This is so much of what was behind starting the thread- just letting gender identification be as it is for each person and get to unification of our friendships. Try to see all of the sides that get involved as friends. Close friends matter, yet, I know we hiurt each other sometimes, but in this context, I don't think it is about gender at all.

For example, from the context of my last post, I can talk about my own feelings of hurt, but I also know the alienation on the other side from trans friends that confide in me. So, if we can tell each other about these things, our unity is stronger.

[TenderKnight]

AtLast,

Great thread! Thank you for starting it..

A little about my past.. When I found out about Butch people( on a side note, when refering to people on this site as a group, I'm using "people" it saves time and my poor fingers from typing..), I was a little shocked and very thrilled.. I can't tell you how many pictures of k.d. lang I grabbed off the internet and had posted around my room.. This was someone that I could identify with! Then I found a butch/femme site and was like, "holy crap! More poeple that I can Identify with!" I was all about it.. Reading online threads, going into chat, and meeting people locally helped me find and identify who i was and who i am now..

I am thankful for the Butches and Transmen that have posted thier thoughts and feelings for me to read and learn from, either in a good way or a bad way.. I am grateful for the folks that took time out to talk to a baby butch and then a questioning TG Butch and then finally to the transgender person tthat I am now (and have always been)..

With out my friendships and relationships with Butches here and in r/t, my journey could have been MUCH harder.. It's also nice to have people to talk to that get it.. and that you don't have to explain things every other sentance.. They just *get* it..

I started a thread about respecting women's space (and got some flack for using "women" instead of a more inclusive term).. I guess that I am kind of stuck on binary in a lot of ways.. and I am reading what people have been writting and I am learning more about the other side. It is hard for me to relate to some Butches, because they are coming from such a diffrent place then where I am.. I am trying to relearn and process through some of my assumtions and binary thinking.. I just hope that with the support of my Butch brothers and sisters, as well as my trans brothers and sisters, I can continue to grow as a person within this community. I too hope that this thread can be a good starting place.

Disclaimer: I in no way intend to drag anything here that doesn't need to be here.. I refrenced the thread I started as an example of where i just don't get it, or didn't get that the title would irk or offend some people. /Disclaimer

Thank you,
Tony

[atomiczombie]

I have a hard time figuring out why there has been on this site, a seeming juxtaposition and dualism between butches and transguys that is reactionary - like someone is encroaching on someone else's territory. Yes, butches and transguys are different, but that difference doesn't have to mean that there should be a hierarchy or a mutual exclusivity. My queer sisters and brothers are family to me. One of my very best friends is a butch. We understand things about each other that most people don't. But we recognize the differences as well and celebrate those in each other. I have a great respect for butches and their courage to walk in a world that can sometimes be harsh and judgmental, and ignorant. Let's stop the in-fighting and unite to support each other!

[Liam]

So, other than using the correct pronoun, how may I be supportive of everyone here?

[Jett]

Interesting quote though from an odd source (forgive me if I don't get it perfectly it's been a while):

"Sometimes I think it should be a rule of war that you have to stand face to face with your enemy and get to know him before you can shoot him."
M*A*S*H, Colonel Potter

I've thought of that quote often in these "gender wars", we're so much more than our IDs. The idea that we could sum up anyone or their ideas by them isn't realistic, they're so personally subjective anyway who'd even know what the mean but to the one owning them. Sure you can tell a little by ID, but like, you can know my ID but it won't tell you that I'm a very compassionate person, don't hold a grudge long or hell, that I love fried peanut butter and banana sandwiches.

I always hate to think based on them anyone wouldn't feel welcome here in these spaces, it's shitty, and I know I've felt that way at times myself. It doesn't feel good to not feel welcome in a community you care about. I think if anybody goes away un-welcomed that's feels to me like a big fail on our part.

I don't know how to fix the shit except on my part to try to be aware of what I say and do. And yeah Atlast, I do have hope... real life I've never had issues with other identities, I just think something (maybe the face to face human factor) gets lost in translation here.

Peace,
Metro

[Andrew, Jr.]

AtomicZombie & Metro,

I agree with what you both posted. I try my best to avoid drama. Sometimes I get caught up with the words or phrases that people say. Or if I post my feelings/opinions I get flamed by the same ones. I am tired. I feel very much silenced and I question if I belong here.

I used to think that this was my community too. I get rejected by society because I am slow. If I ask a question or post my feelings or opinions there is someone to beat me down. It is worse than high school.

I do care about the many people who I do love and who I consider my family. But I am tired. I have a limited short term memory, and long term memory is at zero. I am tired of having to share personal information to every Tom, Dick, and Harry to understand me. When I post that I am not good with words, trust me. When I post I am not computer savvy. Don't ask me to post pics in the gallery. I have no clue as to how too. Make sense? If I smoke a Nub cigar, trust me I am smoking a Nub cigar.

Sorry for my rant. I just have to let it out.

Andrew

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by TenderKnight

AtLast,

Great thread! Thank you for starting it..

A little about my past.. When I found out about Butch people( on a side note, when refering to people on this site as a group, I'm using "people" it saves time and my poor fingers from typing..), I was a little shocked and very thrilled.. I can't tell you how many pictures of k.d. lang I grabbed off the internet and had posted around my room.. This was someone that I could identify with! Then I found a butch/femme site and was like, "holy crap! More poeple that I can Identify with!" I was all about it.. Reading online threads, going into chat, and meeting people locally helped me find and identify who i was and who i am now..

I am thankful for the Butches and Transmen that have posted thier thoughts and feelings for me to read and learn from, either in a good way or a bad way.. I am grateful for the folks that took time out to talk to a baby butch and then a questioning TG Butch and then finally to the transgender person tthat I am now (and have always been)..

With out my friendships and relationships with Butches here and in r/t, my journey could have been MUCH harder.. It's also nice to have people to talk to that get it.. and that you don't have to explain things every other sentance.. They just *get* it..

I started a thread about respecting women's space (and got some flack for using "women" instead of a more inclusive term).. I guess that I am kind of stuck on binary in a lot of ways.. and I am reading what people have been writting and I am learning more about the other side. It is hard for me to relate to some Butches, because they are coming from such a diffrent place then where I am.. I am trying to relearn and process through some of my assumtions and binary thinking.. I just hope that with the support of my Butch brothers and sisters, as well as my trans brothers and sisters, I can continue to grow as a person within this community. I too hope that this thread can be a good starting place.

Disclaimer: I in no way intend to drag anything here that doesn't need to be here.. I refrenced the thread I started as an example of where i just don't get it, or didn't get that the title would irk or offend some people. /Disclaimer

Thank you,
Tony

WOW, you and have closely related histories with our butch identity! But, I was much older before I developed a personal comfort zone. Dammit! And my history with transpeople is different than most here. Which is why I sometimes have thought, WTF? A friend pointed out to me that I have been in a state and geographical too long that trans is just part of everyday life. Plus, there has been a Tran gendered person around me or related to my relationships for 40 years, now. Not so for many people. However, I feel like my experiences is limited in many ways because it really is a different world evolving around gender these days.

I remember the woman's space thread and was glad you started it, but knew some flack would fly. But, also, that a whole lot of positive could come along, too.

Yup, a good starting place for you! Can't promise we won't get tangled up somewhere, but, so far, so good! I know that some folks have just had negative experiences on both sides (or should I say within all of the sides!), so, they will have to see how it goes before posting anything.

I have been taken to task (outside of the site, as in real-time people) by some female-identified butches because I want to talk about this stuff. They see me as a traitor. These are not really friends to me, more like acquaintances, so, I'm just letting that go. Yup, the ignorance factor rides again! But, I can't change them.

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I have a hard time figuring out why there has been on this site, a seeming juxtaposition and dualism between butches and transguys that is reactionary - like someone is encroaching on someone else's territory. Yes, butches and transguys are different, but that difference doesn't have to mean that there should be a hierarchy or a mutual exclusivity. My queer sisters and brothers are family to me. One of my very best friends is a butch. We understand things about each other that most people don't. But we recognize the differences as well and celebrate those in each other. I have a great respect for butches and their courage to walk in a world that can sometimes be harsh and judgmental, and ignorant. Let's stop the in-fighting and unite to support each other!

atomiczombie-

Thank you so much for this. The part I underlined is so much at the center of how I hope this conversation goes. I don't get the dualism either. Sure, we can all have different political and philosophical views, and thoughts about gender (in and of itself), but I don't want to waste time fighting. I want unity, too. Not that we can't and won't disagree, but I'd much rather have disagreement and walk away with knowing someone better due to it.

Yes, let's celebrate!



Sometimes, I think that

[princessbelle]

If i may......

Just wanted to pop my femme head in here, since AtLast invited everyone (thanks for that)....

I want to just say how wonderful this thread is to read and how happy I am to see it. In my life as a femme, I have wittnessed the sometimes anamosity that can go on. It has always saddened me.

What a wonderful idea, Atlast, to bring the positive, upbeat, informative and "shaking hands" comradery that this has started.

*curtsies to all here and

Thank you for the breath of fresh air and sunlight that leads our community into strength and togetherness and overpowers the negative and bias who's shadows grow larger in the dark.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I have to ask just for clarification because I really need it right now..

Was I wrong to assume this was Butch and Transmen space? or was everyone allowed?

Thank you for your time.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

If i may......

Just wanted to pop my femme head in here, since AtLast invited everyone (thanks for that)....

I want to just say how wonderful this thread is to read and how happy I am to see it. In my life as a femme, I have wittnessed the sometimes anamosity that can go on. It has always saddened me.

What a wonderful idea, Atlast, to bring the positive, upbeat, informative and "shaking hands" comradery that this has started.

*curtsies to all here and

Thank you for the breath of fresh air and sunlight that leads our community into strength and togetherness and overpowers the negative and bias who's shadows grow larger in the dark.

Yup... everyone is welcome!!! I put it in the general topic area about relationships, etc. and community because I wanted it to really be about friendship struggles, understanding, misunderstanding, how feelings get hurt and how we deal with this, sharing what is common, what is not.... how we all interact in real-time and here... and anyone can add other stuff to the list! I would think femmes have some perspectives to share, too! Maybe MtFs might want to say a few things....

What is kewl is that quite a few members have just come in and posted!

[Sam]

I'm thinking they will let ANYONE in this thread eh?

So many thanks to ya'll this is a great thread. i have been reading along.

[Strappie]

Hey Guys,

Please take my words not always literally for I am not the best at putting words into writing like some of you so eloquently do.

I am asking this from my heart and not being an ass in anyway shape or form. I'm not so "up" on my trans knowledge so please bare with me while I come up with words that do not offend anyone. And please believe me when I say this is from my heart because one of my best buds is Post-Op (he says he thinks we were separated at birth) lol

ok so here it goes....

Over at the Dash site I started a thread pertaining to the Olivia Cruise: in regards of Trans folks not being welcome on a Olivia Cruise. I wanted to ask the question but I stopped before because my previous questions stirred up some not so happy comments from folks including the owner.

My question is this, How are they to know if some random Joe Blow who has never been through a transition get on the Cruise? For real.. I'm not trying to stir up shit trust me. Can't any male just hop on the ship? How are they to know who transitioned and who hasn't? I want all my friends gay-lesbian-trans-tg-ect... to be able to enjoy the things I enjoy not because of who I am or who they are. I want equal rights for ALL.

They would have to let "everyone" on the ship? No? How could they not, are they really going to ask me if I'm really gay? Will they ask you what you are? I don't know ... I think I should make a phone call.