Communication 101: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

[Medusa]

I have long been interested in communication styles and how people choose to get their point across, choose to listen to someone else get their point across, and choose to agree to disagree.

I have learned so much about communication from my 13+years of being on the internet, even though it's probably a little cringe-worthy to admit it. I have lots of different styles of communication, things that work and things that don't work, and ways that people ingest information and regurgitate it back to the conversation and how, often, the biproducts look very different depending on who processed what was said.

I would like to start an open dialogue about communication and how we can ALL use healthy communication tactics. I am willing to provide examples of things that I see that are problematic in conversations (generalized, not personalized).

Example 1: Medusa posts a thread called "Cosmetic Tips for Femmes" and states that she would like other Femmes to come in and give their ideas and tips for make-up application.

The first post in the thread is June saying "I dont wear cosmetics because I feel that cosmetics are sexist and I dont need them due to my natural beauty."

Medusa reads that and immediately feels defensive because June says that she feels that cosmetics are sexist and Medusa doesnt want to be seen as engaging in a sexist activity so she feels the need to defend her right to wear cosmetics. She also wonders if June is passive-aggressively alluding to the idea that Medusa is really an ugly hag by saying that she doesnt need the cosmetics due to her natural beauty.

Medusa gets angry and posts a retort that says "Well, hell, if you dont wear cosmetics then why the hell are you in this thread? Its CLEARLY marked for people who wear cosmetics!!!"

What just happened?

What GOOD communication skills can be employed in the above scenario?
What BAD communication skills were employed in the above scenario?
Do you see the potential for the ugly there?

I think that people who engage in conversations all have a responsibility to one another if they want to truly have a meaningful conversation. I, personally, am not a fan of drive-bys for this reason (unless they are funny and add levity to the conversation when things are too serious). Im also not a fan of "opinion bombs" where someone comes in to a conversation and drops their bomb and then refuses to come back and talk about why they feel the way they do.

I am WAY guilty of having shitty communication skills in some conversations. I have done the drive-by, the opinion bomb, the snarky one-liner, and the repetitive "here is my opinion" on a repeat record. It never really helped anyone hear me better. Imagine that.

I do think that people process information through their own filters and I have been seeing an incredible amount of personalization going on in some of the threads lately and an over-abundance of personal attacks. Im pretty tired of it and think that the conversations around here would be much better suited for growth and actual productive exchange if we could all learn to take off our "me me me" glasses and see the scenario as a whole, not just through our own lens.
One of the ways that I have been learning to do that in my own world is by replaying the scenario in my head but changing the characters and seeing if I feel any differently. Sometimes I do and when that happens it tells me that Im over-personalizing things.

I hope we can have a good conversation here and am interested to see what folks have to say!

Let's talk about it!

[Andrew, Jr.]

Well, I suck at communication. I try my best. Sometimes what I say and what I mean are different. This is very frustrating for me. It is like my body. It fails me.

[Medusa]

...continuing this thought process.....


If I am Medusa in the above scenario, I might not feel good about trying to start a thread to commune with my Femme sisters (or even Butches who wear makeup) and having someone make a statement that feels like a value judgment.

If I am June in the above scenario, I might truly see wearing cosmetics as a problematic issue rooting from sexism and I might want my Femme sisters (or Butches who wear makeup) to look at what they are doing from another angle.

There could be a million explanations for the way that people feel the way they do but what would be a healthy way to look at it? When people give an opinion that is different than your own, do you internalize it? Does it matter if that opinion includes a value judgement (implied or overt)?

[Apocalipstic]

Maybe I would congratulate June on her natural beauty, but admit that I love cool makeup (when its not this hot out) and that for me cosmetics are about something I enjoy and continue on with the thread.

I think it is important to read carefully and equally important to think about cultural differences. Maybe in the Pacific Northwest makeup is viewed differently than it is in the South? Maybe the word "cosmetics" means something different. Maybe June has had a bad personal experience with cosmetics. Who knows.

I think not taking June's post personally is important. Yes, it night be insensitive of her to mention her natural beauty when we might need trowels of cover-up , but is it worth getting all bent out of shape?

Hell, June might just be having a bad day and not have meant anything at all by her comment.

(hoping we all know this is an example, not that I think June is insensitive )

[Medusa]

You immediately get 100 bonus points for the use of the word "trowels"!!!!

[Andrew, Jr.]

Medusa,

I apologise for not answering your question the way you meant for it to be.

I just think we all should celebrate each other. Life is hard enough. Why not just love and embrace each other as we are. It should be as simple as that.

Love,
Andrew

[DapperButch]

*Bump*

Ok, so I have nothing to say at the moment, but I didn't want this thread to get lost in the shuffle...

I am thinking if some noticed this thread, they would want to post, so I thought I would bump it up.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Medusa

What GOOD communication skills can be employed in the above scenario?
What BAD communication skills were employed in the above scenario?
Do you see the potential for the ugly there?

I think that people who engage in conversations all have a responsibility to one another if they want to truly have a meaningful conversation. I, personally, am not a fan of drive-bys for this reason (unless they are funny and add levity to the conversation when things are too serious). Im also not a fan of "opinion bombs" where someone comes in to a conversation and drops their bomb and then refuses to come back and talk about why they feel the way they do.

I am WAY guilty of having shitty communication skills in some conversations. I have done the drive-by, the opinion bomb, the snarky one-liner, and the repetitive "here is my opinion" on a repeat record. It never really helped anyone hear me better. Imagine that.

I do think that people process information through their own filters and I have been seeing an incredible amount of personalization going on in some of the threads lately and an over-abundance of personal attacks. Im pretty tired of it and think that the conversations around here would be much better suited for growth and actual productive exchange if we could all learn to take off our "me me me" glasses and see the scenario as a whole, not just through our own lens.
One of the ways that I have been learning to do that in my own world is by replaying the scenario in my head but changing the characters and seeing if I feel any differently. Sometimes I do and when that happens it tells me that Im over-personalizing things.

I hope we can have a good conversation here and am interested to see what folks have to say!

Let's talk about it!

The sections I bolded are what I often see. Too often we look at threads and think to ourselves how this affects just OUR (aka ME! ME! ME! -- think gulls from Finding Nemo) point of view. Part of that, I believe, is that we really do want to be part of the community/conversation and can only really speak on our own experience and how it relates. But I think part of it is how the Internet has evolved and changed communication skills within society as a whole.

I certainly have done it but try to avoid it and try to actively listen. This means, to me, trying to envision someone's else's point of view as well as "actively listening" (e.g., asking for further clarification of their POV, asking them questions that might develop the question/thought/idea more, etc.)

Originally Posted by Medusa

...continuing this thought process.....


If I am Medusa in the above scenario, I might not feel good about trying to start a thread to commune with my Femme sisters (or even Butches who wear makeup) and having someone make a statement that feels like a value judgment.

If I am June in the above scenario, I might truly see wearing cosmetics as a problematic issue rooting from sexism and I might want my Femme sisters (or Butches who wear makeup) to look at what they are doing from another angle.

There could be a million explanations for the way that people feel the way they do but what would be a healthy way to look at it? When people give an opinion that is different than your own, do you internalize it? Does it matter if that opinion includes a value judgement (implied or overt)?

I try to acknowledge, internally, that not everyone has the kind of day I do. Most of my days are relatively happy -- although I do have my frustration days. I tend to post passively. This means, to me, that I write like I talk in the mood that I am (not always good since sometimes I think faster than I write and I forget to ask myself what I had said). Since I cannot read someone's body language over the internet (unless I do a video conference) I can only assume that they post neutrally unless it's obvious to me (e.g., June says "I'M STAMPING MY FEET NOW AT YOU FOR NOT GIVING ME A PRETTY POODLE EMOTICON! POUT!").

But if someone does respond in a way that is unexpected (at least in response to a post I put up) I step back and give it time before I reply. I try to avoid "reactionary" posts and will even avoid logging in for that purpose. After giving myself 24 hours (or more) to think about it, I may reply or not. I don't need the last word in. Sometimes, it's better not to.

As I learned in my support group we need to recognize the concept of "step up, step back" (i.e., if you haven't spoken, then speak up; if you've talked a lot, then step back to let others speak) as well as "check in, check out" (ask the original poster first before changing the topic and when the topic is done, let others know -- I may find a Question/Answer mod where people can ask questions and mark it as Answered when they get the answer that helps them).

I may have more thoughts on this but will step back for now.

[sharkchomp]

About 20 years ago I got off of work early in the morning (I worked third shift) and went home to change clothes before heading back out with my pals. I told my Mom that I was going to change my clothes. I assumed she knew I was going back out with my friends. She assumed that I was changing into my pj's and going to bed. Imagine her surprise when she got a phone call a few hours later about me being in the emergency room!!!

The keys word there was assumed. I see alot of people assume they understand a posters intent or what they actually mean and then they respond quickly. I'm sure we've all seen huge communication issues resolved simply because someone asked for clarification first. There are times when people just disagree and I think issues from that fall out can carry over into other threads.

I know for myself it can be hard to see beyond the ME ME ME type of thinking to see the whole picture. I think it can be difficult to do that sometimes.

~~~shark~~~~~~

[Chancie]

Example 1: Medusa posts a thread called "Cosmetic Tips for Femmes" and states that she would like other Femmes to come in and give their ideas and tips for make-up application.

The first post in the thread is June saying "I dont wear cosmetics because I feel that cosmetics are sexist and I dont need them due to my natural beauty."

I think June'y should mind her own beeswax and start a different thread about how the use of makeup and foot binding and girdles serve to control women in a patriarchal society.

Because if I want to read a thread about makeup, it's irritating to me when other members attempt to micromanage what they think we should all be discussing.

[Gayla]

Originally Posted by Chancie

Because if I want to read a thread about makeup, it's irritating to me when other members attempt to micromanage what they think we should all be discussing.

I typed out a whole long thing and then came back to see that you had said it all in one line. Well, two lines, I guess depending on screen size.

Yeah, a lot of threads start off as one thing and end up going off in tangents but there's usually something redeeming in the mix of it all. It almost never fails that someone comes in and tells us what we should be talking about rather then just contributing something to the conversation we're actually having. So yeah, I get kinda tired of being told we're doing it wrong.

I also think I often try so hard to not take things personally that I go so far in the opposite direction as to be really irritating. I know it often comes across as if I'm speaking for other people or absolutely everyone when it's really just me trying to understand without internalizing. I also find myself posting from a theoretical level more often then a personal level so I've been trying to change that yet find some type of balance. I also find myself so very conscious of wording things in ways so as not to be offensive to someone that my posts often end up water down to say not much of anything. Or, they end up with so many qualifiers that the point gets lost.

[violaine]

[QUOTE=Medusa;130975]Example 1: Medusa posts a thread called "Cosmetic Tips for Femmes" and states that she would like other Femmes to come in and give their ideas and tips for make-up application.

The first post in the thread is June saying "I dont wear cosmetics because I feel that cosmetics are sexist and I dont need them due to my natural beauty."

Medusa reads that and immediately feels defensive because June says that she feels that cosmetics are sexist and Medusa doesnt want to be seen as engaging in a sexist activity so she feels the need to defend her right to wear cosmetics. She also wonders if June is passive-aggressively alluding to the idea that Medusa is really an ugly hag by saying that she doesnt need the cosmetics due to her natural beauty.

Medusa gets angry and posts a retort that says "Well, hell, if you dont wear cosmetics then why the hell are you in this thread? Its CLEARLY marked for people who wear cosmetics!!!"

What just happened?

if i were to start a thread on cosmetics, i would invite all sorts of opinion. i am not sure that i see anything 'wrong' with june's comments in this example, and if anything, i would consider a sense of playfulness with 'natural beauty' - and/or an appreciation. wondering if the person was being passive-aggressive, and then becoming defensive [based on perception], seems a short route to engaging conversation.

What GOOD communication skills can be employed in the above scenario?

maybe asking questions prior to making unsavoury immediate connections to you could be helpful, and if responses differ from your own, with any strong/negative emotions following - wonder on presence of expectations?

What BAD communication skills were employed in the above scenario?

opposing views and seriousness are not the same as negative/bad communication to me- and unless a person is typing in lots of caps, and/or a moderator comes in to smooth things over, i may not even notice - be looking for- the 'worst'. if 'clearly' was not capitalised, and a question asked on 'sexism', the topic may have easily taken another turn.

Do you see the potential for the ugly there?

only because of the set-up, in other words, the mention of 'defensive/defensiveness/passive-aggressive'.

[Gemme]

Kindness isn't translated well over the internet. For me, it goes beyond body language and intent.

If someone...let's pick on Juney some more, shall we?...if Juney says to me that she finds make up sexist and (not connected, but still something that she noticed) that, with my current made up face I look like a cross between a hooker and a circus clown pandering for approval from strangers, I would be okay with that. Honestly.

Because I see her kindness in not wanting me to look like someone who is seeking approval outside of myself. But not everyone knows how kind June can be. So, they might view the exchange through their filter and their filter comes customized with years of violent verbal and physical abuse, so they begin trip, trip, tripping down memory lane....all because of Juney being kind enough to not want someone to look like a horny clown and me being heavy-handed in the makeup department.

Listening online...in the "right" ways...is comprised of the same components that listening in the "right" ways in person is. Person A speaks. Person B hears what Person A said and repeats back what Person B thought s/he heard Person A said. Person A either confirms or denies and corrects what Person B heard. Rinse, lather, repeat.

My thoughts are kind of helter skelter right now, so forgive me if I'm not making sense.

The potential for ugly is always there. It's a tightrope we walk every day (Obviously, I'm having some sort of fascination with the circus right now....it's probably jealousy that a coworker got to go see Kooza this weekend and I didn't but I'm trying to let it go....no, really....).

You know what cures a lot of things and is really, really simple and free? Air! If we all took one or twelve or five hundred and thirty-two deep breaths before posting (especially on the more heated threads), I think we'd be able to practice better communication skills more often (or pass out from hyperventilating, but yanno...).

If it worked for Drew Barrymore in Ever After, it can work for me. I. Just. Breathe.

[Chancie]

Originally Posted by a Corvus brachyrhynchos

Miss V, it's hard for me to quote the quotes within the quotes so I snipped a lot of what you wrote, but I want to respond to it.

With much respect, if Medusa posted a thread asking for ideas and feelings about makeup to help her figure out what topics are of interest, and I don't mean in her role as Administrator, just as a member interested in what other community members think, and she encourages us to scaffold from her thread and start our own threads, then it makes sense to me that the topics may be wide and varied. But if she posts a thread about makeup tips, than it feels disrespectful to me when members mutiny the thread with their own agenda.

In a way, this isn't a good example, because it is possible to talk about brands of makeup and retail choices, as well as the deeper social, political and cultural underpinnings of body adornment and modification.

I am not discounting the many different ways we all learn and think and process, goodness knows, but for me, someone who is easily distracted, who is old and has bad eyes, someone who needs a break from a demanding job and lately, some serious health issues, my ability to participate in the discourse is compromised by some members' rigidity and by other members desire that we all get along, kumbaya.

[violaine]

chancie,

i was responding to the scenario provided. i thought the thread was open to multidimensional discussion dialogue? for people who process things differently/different ideas?

medusa wrote "let's talk about it!"

to me, that meant anyone reading the thread who wishes to respond.

[suebee]

One thing is for sure: there's always the possibility that two people will read the same words and hear a completely different message. I remember one time I was hopping mad because of what I considered a snide comment directed at me, and nobody else saw what I saw. So I did the only possible thing there was to do - I apologized. It seems like a simple thing, but as we all know, it ain't always so.

Now on one day or another I'll have no self-control, or I'll be feeling shitty, or the cat just got run over by a car or some such tragedy, and I'll let the person have it with both barrels. But I try to disengage if I feel myself getting tense and know I'm headed for a confrontation, and I try my best not to be baited. And even though we all hope that that type of behavior has been left behind us, we all came to this site with our own baggage. Mine was ordered from Sears by Mommy and Daddy and given to me as a graduation present, so I've had it for quite a while.

I taught crisis intervention to human service professionals for a number of years, and the biggest yet simplest lesson I learned from that was something Medusa mentioned: ask the person what they mean before assuming you know what they're saying. It's worth the time it takes. Believe it or not, 80% of the professionals I taught ASSUMED that if a person in crisis asked questions, they were challenging the authority of the (nurse, teacher, counsellor, etc.) in question. So anyone who finds they do this on occasion - you're in good company.

Great thread Medusa. I'm sure it'll be interesting.

[Chancie]

Yes!

Violaine, that is exactly what I thought Medusa was asking.

Perhaps I am focusing too closely on the example she used.

I tend to be a close thinker, and

I know that is not everyone's style.

[violaine]

i am thinking about 'mutiny' and 'own agenda', and wanted to share some confusion i've caused / been caused on the site, which may have been viewed, though i doubt harshly, along the lines of those terms.

a thread here on word expressions. for the life of me, i could not seem to get it right! a nice person messaged me after a while, to let me know the rules, which i was sure of, because i was posting in the thread- and said so. probably important to note here that i continued [and continued] to post - and i'm not fond of considering it 'wrong' because it was just 'different'

the posts i submitted were word connections, but not the common phrases/expressions called for in the game. i'm sure it took me a bit of time to sort it out, silly as it may read, better connecting hemispherically.

small example of communication differences, and i let the person know when i finally 'got' the thing everyone else readily grasped.

[Daywalker]

I think it's important to keep certain things at the forefront of
your mind when engaging in Communities such as this one.


For me, one of those things is to always remember is that while I am
celebrating and basking in the company of this vast variety of folks here
(and am grateful to be privy to), I've also developed a 'custom' set of
filters, as this vast variety factor can also mean that shit can
get hella icky in the blink of a cursor.


I always keep a mental post-it in front of my mind when reading/replying
to threads ~ one that reminds me that my opinion can and will vary from
others, and mine is not the only one that matters. Like, for example...not
everyone likes Koolaid, I love the stuff but that doesn't mean
people who don't like it are wrong.


It means I've just been exposed to another side of things,
a different perspective n what have you.



It's not always a 'right' or 'wrong'.

It's not always a 'us' vs 'them' or 'me' vs 'you'.


When we're growing up we are curious, and observant of other peoples
likes, dislikes, opinions, reactions, moods...all that stuff, it's how we
'grew up' ~ it's how we gained our knowledge. Somewhere along
the line, probably in our know-it-all years...this ritual of observation
got lost on a lot of folks. Learning about people and how to communicate
is the same for adults as kids. I hope that made sense. I guess we get
caught up in our own passions and opinions developed over the years
and cling to them as if...well, as if they are the 'right' way, the only way.




I knew I shoulda waited to fire up this doobie,
now I've lost mah train of thought.






Oh, yeah...also wanted to say that the style of delivery can be everything.


However...it can be daunting to folks who have no prior knowledge of
particular styles of delivery and communication that some of the long time
members possess; for example if Chancie were to tell someone to 'Sit up
straight', those of us who know her also know how endearing the intent
of that phrase is, those who do not...might respond defensively or whatever.

Anyway, now I've rambled and I blame Medusa.

And Juney. Just because.

[Nat]

I was listening to a podcast about add/adhd the other day, and the hosts were talking about social/communication problems we have. I know I can't be the only affected member, so I thought I would go ahead and post them here.

We aren't always aware when we are communicating too much or too little. We can make ourselves a pest when we are communicating too much. We can hurt people's feelings by forgetting about them for long periods of time. Time is experienced very differently for many of us, and we tend to get entirely involved in the thing that is right in front of us. We can have poor impulse control. We forget to close loops in conversation - so we often don't complete a conversation the same way others might. We have trouble categorizing or differentiating "important" details from minutia. We have a lot of trouble with follow-up and follow-through. Our minds don't stay on topic, and we may often veer or pingpong from one topic to another. A third of us display some OCD tendencies, and many of us struggle with depression, anxiety or are bipolar. We can be very inattentive listeners and readers. I myself am a very slow reader and often I will impulsively respond to something half-way through reading it.

We are generally accepting and liking of others, though more formal and rigid rules of friendship are often impossible for us to understand or maintain. Through years of living with add/adhd, many of us have developed a learned helplessness in response to the negative results of our unintended behaviors. We reach overwhelm quickly and many of us carry around shame regarding the results of our neurological differences. Many of us grew up being told we were lazy, that we just needed to apply ourselves, that we should understand how to follow the rules, that we need to listen better, that we need to stop talking or daydreaming and pay attention, that we need to organize our whatevers.

Anyway, I thought I would put this here because it's a neurological difference that leads to different communication approaches and styles, and it's a relatively large amount of people who have it.

Oh, and we often forget things, which can really irritate people too.

One thing I really like about this site is the existence of the reps and thank you buttons an visitor messages. Having a brain that's always telling me to respond respond respond respond, these multiple options give me more access to being able to respond without disrupting or derailing a thread, and the thank you button has especially helped me be a better listener/reader.