Bravehearts: FTMs who cannot or choose not to medically transition

[Words]

One of the reasons why Blue is my hero is that Hy has chosen to not transition in spite of the obvious advantages of doing so. Yes, Hy is on T, yes, Hy hopes to eventually have top surgery, in both cases, because Hy wants to 'masculinize'. BUT, Hy has no intention of ever IDing as male because Hy isn't male and is happy to live forever in TG (third gendered) land, even if doing that means constantly having to 'explain' Hymself.

That, to me, takes a lot of courage and I am extremely proud of Hym.

Words

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Linus

It's hard in this world to transition but can be even harder when you're not allowed to or choose not to transition. And want to be seen as the gender you truly are and heard as such. Since I know a few FTMs who have been stopped from medically transitioning (and one that has chosen not to medically transition), a support thread for those here on the BFP would be a good thing.

And I called it Bravehearts. I'm not a huge fan of Mel Gibson but to me, it takes a lot of heart and bravery to continue to move forward to present as male when the world has a narrow definition of gender.

Linus, I doubt you initiated this thread to suggest that non-medically transitioned FTMs have a harder road than any other marginalized group. I'm simply responding with the thoughts that popped into my head as a result of your post, hope you don't mind.

It takes a lot of heart and bravery to do/be many things, including, but not exclusively, "to move forward to present as male."

It takes a lot of fortitude to simply be an out homosexual/queer of any stripe.

It takes a lot of spine to be a masculine presenting female - butch - in a world with narrowly defined parameters of what it means to be female.

It takes a lot of energy to be a male identified butch, or non-medically transitioned FTM and have to endure the tossing under the bus (of male privilege) by other butches.

It takes a lot of strength to be femme in a community that is constantly talking about butch, FTM and other masculine identities, which repeatedly places femme in merely a supporting role, and which questions their inclusion in this community when they choose male id'ed or FTM as partners.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Linus, I doubt you initiated this thread to suggest that non-medically transitioned FTMs have a harder road than any other marginalized group. I'm simply responding with the thoughts that popped into my head as a result of your post, hope you don't mind.

That wasn't the intent. It was simply to give those that cannot or choose not to transition a place to feel welcomed, safe and able to discuss their issues, dreams, challenges without infringing on others. All marginalized groups have challenges. No way does this lessen that.

I appreciate the thoughts and do recognize the challenges that other groups have but perhaps that discussion might serve better in another thread?

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Words

One of the reasons why Blue is my hero is that Hy has chosen to not transition in spite of the obvious advantages of doing so. Yes, Hy is on T, yes, Hy hopes to eventually have top surgery, in both cases, because Hy wants to 'masculinize'. BUT, Hy has no intention of ever IDing as male because Hy isn't male and is happy to live forever in TG (third gendered) land, even if doing that means constantly having to 'explain' Hymself.

That, to me, takes a lot of courage and I am extremely proud of Hym.

Words

It does take courage, and huge heart, to live in the middle like that. I'd be really proud of him, too, darlin.

I'm always proud of Butches and Transmen, however they choose to live, whether they're making the best of barriers they simply cannot cross or whether they're blazing trails into new territory. I think life is sometimes so much more difficult than it should be for those whose very existence calls society's shallow gender norms into question, because when you shine the light through the surface and expose the deeper implications of easy gender IDs, most people seem to get really uncomfortable.

I think that's a big part of the pain so many guys have when they need to transition, need to be in all ways men, and are kept from it for whatever reason. Society insists on forcing them (even kicking and screaming!) back into that tiny shoebox labeled "woman, feminine" and I think it does violence to their souls to be erased so completely, rendered so deliberately invisible.

[Julien]

Originally Posted by Linus

That wasn't the intent. It was simply to give those that cannot or choose not to transition a place to feel welcomed, safe and able to discuss their issues, dreams, challenges without infringing on others. All marginalized groups have challenges. No way does this lessen that.

Thank you Linus for starting the thread. I appreciate the time and space to discuss our decisions about our Trans status. I for one identify as TG and do not plan on the full transition physically that is. Although I do want top surgery. I do not want to take T and I skate the fine line of male/female. While I do get mistaken for a man, what I remember the most is the confusion on the person's face. I am not confused about who I am and present myself as male, even though I do get taken as a woman too, it is not the most comfortable for me. My gender expression is male. It is just this in between status that is so difficult. Yet I know that I am who I am suppose to be and am happy in that. I must say this who know what the future might bring to me, but I'm getting prepared for it. I think this status in TG is more genderblending than anything else at least as I see it. We work with what we have and make the best of our circumstances.

[bigbutchmistie]

I love reading this thread.

[Jet]

I am not FTM. I am transgendered and a straight man in a "part-womanly" body. When I transition I will be FTM, literally. Until then, TG only. That's my definition I won't bend on it. I do not ID as lesbian, I have never have been one. I cannot be with a woman as a woman or identify with women as a woman. I've danced around this thing all my life and I am taking necessary steps to compliment who I am on the inside. I'm not sure how i will live my life after being on T. I do not require top surgery, and i don't know how i feel about bottom surgery. Oddly, the most accepting people so far are straight and bisexual women. Lesbians have not been accepting of me and neither have gay men.

[froggy674u]

Jet I couldn't have said it better myself. I have never felt like a lesbian.I hate when my mother tells people I am one.I perfectly happy wearing my binder,and dont feel the need for top surgery.I do feel the need for T tho so the outside can match the inside,and for my own personal happiness.I have always dressed in mens clothing.I own nothing that resembles anything like a woman.I finally have my parents calling me Kel insted of my full name which is androgynous anyways.I just want to look like my dad.I already act like him which is a good thing.Hes taught me everything I know about life.My parents are happily married now for 50 yrs.Thats all I want from life as well.Is that to much to ask for?

[Words]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Linus, I doubt you initiated this thread to suggest that non-medically transitioned FTMs have a harder road than any other marginalized group. I'm simply responding with the thoughts that popped into my head as a result of your post, hope you don't mind.

It takes a lot of heart and bravery to do/be many things, including, but not exclusively, "to move forward to present as male."

It takes a lot of fortitude to simply be an out homosexual/queer of any stripe.

It takes a lot of spine to be a masculine presenting female - butch - in a world with narrowly defined parameters of what it means to be female.

It takes a lot of energy to be a male identified butch, or non-medically transitioned FTM and have to endure the tossing under the bus (of male privilege) by other butches.

It takes a lot of strength to be femme in a community that is constantly talking about butch, FTM and other masculine identities, which repeatedly places femme in merely a supporting role, and which questions their inclusion in this community when they choose male id'ed or FTM as partners.

I'm sorry for interjecting with my femme voice again in a thread that's aimed at FtMs but I have to say this.

Although I agree with everything you've said here, I also fully understand why Linus has started this thread and see it not as an attempt to negate the suffering of other groups but to lend support to a particular group. A group that's, after all, as deserving of support and a 'safe space' of their own as any other.

Right?

Words

[T D]

Lets face it, life IS hard at times!!

I've ID'd as male for years now. I know that I'm NOT male, but in my heart of hearts there's something that makes me feel that I'm more male than female. So far I have not transitioned because while I'd like some of the male characteristics to be more pronounced in myself, I don't particularly want others. It's a very difficult decision and a fine line between accepting ourselves as we are, and remaking ourselves into what we think we are, want to be, or invision ourself as, etc.

Right now I'm on a huge weight loss kick, and may or may not have top surgery after losing the weight I want to lose. Bascially it all depends on finances honestly. I would most definitely like to be a breastless butch, no doubt about it. Whether or not its feasible is an entirely different story though.

I continue to call myself a butch because visually that's what I am, and even though I feel more male or masculine than not, I'm still a butch at this point. It really feels like a mixed up, jumbled up group of IDs at times, but it's who I am, and well, take me or leave me

Just my 2 cents at the moment

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Linus

That wasn't the intent. It was simply to give those that cannot or choose not to transition a place to feel welcomed, safe and able to discuss their issues, dreams, challenges without infringing on others. All marginalized groups have challenges. No way does this lessen that.

I appreciate the thoughts and do recognize the challenges that other groups have but perhaps that discussion might serve better in another thread?

Originally Posted by Words

I'm sorry for interjecting with my femme voice again in a thread that's aimed at FtMs but I have to say this.

Although I agree with everything you've said here, I also fully understand why Linus has started this thread and see it not as an attempt to negate the suffering of other groups but to lend support to a particular group. A group that's, after all, as deserving of support and a 'safe space' of their own as any other.

Right?

Words

Right. See first sentence.

I unequivocally, and intentionally, stated that I believed Linus was making no attempt to negate the "suffering" (though I take umbrage at that word) of other groups.

Nor was my intent to engage in any further discussion on the matter, merely to state my thoughts as inspired by Linus' words. Thinking inclusively sometimes helps us from becoming myopic.

As an aside, Words, it's my opinion that you and your femme voice, are not "interjecting," but participating.

[violaine]

good afternoon.

interesting thread, thank you

i was thinking of a scenario. if a person lives on an island, and cannot not find a physician to write a prescription, because the one and only local doctor does not support/understand/respect someone's need/desire to transition- and there exist no support groups for like mindedness, that individual will have limited options unless moving off the island is a possibility. for the sake of this entry, let's say the person is financially unable to move, and cannot afford surgery. is the individual not really who they maintain to be then ?

[T D]

Originally Posted by violaine

good afternoon.

interesting thread, thank you

i was thinking of a scenario. if a person lives on an island, and cannot not find a physician to write a prescription, because the one and only local doctor does not support/understand/respect someone's need/desire to transition- and there exist no support groups for like mindedness, that individual will have limited options unless moving off the island is a possibility. for the sake of this entry, let's say the person is financially unable to move, and cannot afford surgery. is the individual not really who they maintain to be then ?

Just my opinion, but everyone is who they believe they are. That is their truth and their reality. That's my take.

[DJ4321]

for me, that would be when the braveheart would step in and I'd just be me

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Words

One of the reasons why Blue is my hero is that Hy has chosen to not transition in spite of the obvious advantages of doing so. Yes, Hy is on T, yes, Hy hopes to eventually have top surgery, in both cases, because Hy wants to 'masculinize'. BUT, Hy has no intention of ever IDing as male because Hy isn't male and is happy to live forever in TG (third gendered) land, even if doing that means constantly having to 'explain' Hymself.

That, to me, takes a lot of courage and I am extremely proud of Hym.

Words

I appreciate this post as it gets to areas that I feel just get side-lined in terms of female masculinity. I also feel that the 3rd Gendered get lumped into transgendered identities. Third-genered individuals are not transgendered and going to transition out of a specific gender composite that is just fine as it is and not on (or desiring to be) on T, not interested in any gendered surgical procedures (although, as Words points out, many desire top surgery). Third- gendered people embrace the female gender identification (may or may not use hy, hym, etc. and are comfortable with themselves as is). Their sexuality may be or not be lesbian. And they are not inter-gendered.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that transgendered theory and studies have advanced acceptance of the full spectrum of gender identities. However, the 3rd-gendered really don't belong within the classification of transgendered and remain proudly female. Yet, are constantly shoved into trans status.

Diversity within diversity can be a lonely and misunderstood place to be.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I appreciate this post as it gets to areas that I feel just get side-lined in terms of female masculinity. I also feel that the 3rd Gendered get lumped into transgendered identities. Third-genered individuals are not transgendered and going to transition out of a specific gender composite that is just fine as it is and not on (or desiring to be) on T, not interested in any gendered surgical procedures (although, as Words points out, many desire top surgery). Third- gendered people embrace the female gender identification (may or may not use hy, hym, etc. and are comfortable with themselves as is). Their sexuality may be or not be lesbian. And they are not inter-gendered.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that transgendered theory and studies have advanced acceptance of the full spectrum of gender identities. However, the 3rd-gendered really don't belong within the classification of transgendered and remain proudly female. Yet, are constantly shoved into trans status.

Diversity within diversity can be a lonely and misunderstood place to be.

AtLast, the part of your post that I underlined, I am confused or perhaps it is just a disagreement. In my understanding I thought to be transgender means you transgress gender lines. I consider myself to be a third gender. I do see myself as Transgender but not Transsexual. Yes, I think I hold ideas very similar to Blue but I am taking the step to legally change my gender. I know I was born into the body of a female and without T or surgery represented as masculine. I too like you do not believe masculinity is strictly the pervue of men.

I think many of us here share similar ideas but we just go down different paths to come to the same or similar beliefs, ideas. I hope you take this post in the spirit of which it is meant to be. Only a difference of opinion. Not a mean spirited calling out.

[Greyson]

( I tried to add this to my above post but the thought came to me after the 30 minute period of time to edit.)

In my thinking one does not have to take T or have surgeries to be Transgender. If you challenge, trangress, break out of the box of what the dominate culture says is how a particular gender is expressed then you come under the umbrella of Transgender. To be Trangender does not necessarily imply you are no longer a woman. To me it implies you are not restricting your expression of your gender to the assigned box. This sort of thinking does stretch or break the belief in the binary.

Sorry if I am not articulating this in a comprehensive and linear manner. I am thinking with my finger tips on the keyboard.

[Soon]

At Last,

Your post was in reference to Word's post who stated that Blue identifies as third-gendered.

You stated: "Third-genered (sic) individuals are not transgendered and going to transition out of a specific gender composite that is just fine as it is and not on (or desiring to be) on T"


You also stated that third gendered people are "not interested in any gendered surgical procedures (although you do say some desire top surgery--but this IS a major surgical procedure that is considered a gendered one)....and are "comfortable with themselves as is."

[Bold Emphasis mine]


-----------------------------
However, Word's post regarding Blue--who identifies as third-gendered--seems to contradict your definition and perception of this term.

Blue is taking T, is desirous of top surgery and refers to hymself in a way other than with female pronouns seems to undercut what YOUR definition of being third gendered is--there does seem steps of transition taken to, as Word's puts it, "masculinize" -- despite Blue not identifying as male.

Isn't the example of Blue a bit at odds with what your definition of third-gendered is?

I have no issue with Blue's identification at all; however, it doesn't appear that Blue even falls under what your interpretation of third-gendered is.


I also don't understand how you get to decide that being third gendered is not also considered transgendered -- for some (not to mention the medical establishment).

Finally, I don't understand you positing that all people who consider themselves transgendered DO take steps to transition. Many don't and some may take some steps but not others.

[Apocalipstic]

Is it possible that the definitions are different for each person?

[Soon]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Is it possible that the definitions are different for each person?

I agree--what is third-gendered or transgendered for one may be different for another. (in terms of pronouns, steps to transition or not, and male or female identification--or neither).

That is why I was a bit put off by At Last's post who seemed to have the parameters laid out for the definition of both third gendered and transgendered.