Open Letter: Dear Femme

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

In reading e and Bit's posts I had a thought.

Is the expected demur and polite veneer used as a way to silence us?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Bit

.......unless, of course, they are people I care about. That's the rub, eh? Because I care about Butches and Transmen... it's one thing to stop being unnecessarily polite to strangers. It's another to stop caring about Butches and Transmen..............

..............you caught that, I'm sure. I caught it as the thought came out of my head. Since when does politeness equal caring? Am I required to be self-effacing enough to accept any kind of intrusion, simply to be seen as caring? Am I required to seat myself last at the table (I can hear half the world's Butches cringing, lol, can't you?) simply to be considered properly supportive?

Originally Posted by Bit

I say there is enough attention and recognition to go around. Both male and female identified Butches are valuable members of our community and deserve recognition--just as Transmen are valued and deserve recognition.

But what has happened is that in actual practice, no one hears me. From being a strong, deeply thoughtful, analytical, articulate, and valued ally of all three groups, I have been reduced to a caricature of unthinking prejudice--and so I am silenced.

Originally Posted by Bit

It is true that I will defer to any Butch, of any ID. I always check myself and my thoughts before I post to be certain I am not offending anyone, hitting any trigger phrases, pushing any hot buttons, forgetting to hedge myself about with obligatory disclaimers... lord love a duck, it gets tiring and I mostly just don't post, yanno? I mostly just don't post.

Cath, whom I adore, I've selected pieces from a few of your posts that speak to the same thing. Namely, how you see yourself deferring to butches and transmasculine others always. How you appear more concerned with their comfort than your own. How your need to do this has left you feeling silenced and misunderstood.

When reading these posts, what kept occurring to me was your need to speak of the masculine other in this thread, which is a Call to Femme, to You.

It is about You. It is about what is beautiful and powerful and autonomous in You.

I have seen the ways that we have disallowed ourselves.

Here, I want to see us naming and seeing ourselves. And one another.

Don't misunderstand, I also want to talk about the ways that we are met with masculine-centrism and how we have handled it, as much as how we might choose to handle it in the future, but if I see that you are focusing over-much on the masculine, I'm just going to remind you -gently- of You.

Because, you know, it's You who just fucking rocks my socks.

It's You whom I have admired most.

It's You who have been my unofficial mentors.

It's You I think of as my friends.

[evolveme]

Regarding my earlier mention of the Dread Pink Font.

I was owning that as a likely example of one of the ways I have bought and swallowed the misogyny. The frivolity reads, well, frivolous. (Watch me do it again here for free, folks!)

I suppose that on the other side of that, you won't find me enjoying anything overly stereotyped as male/masculine (read: neanderthal). All that belching business has me clicking out of a thread instantly.

Now, as Bit pointed out, some of our best femmes may be the pinkly fonted, virtually tea party hostesses. I am not judging them. I am just not reading them. What SuperFemme asked was 'how are we participating?.'

This was one of the ways I could name off-hand. I am not getting to know these femmes. By choice.

I thought it was a great question.

How else are we party to the masculine-centrism?

[Bit]

Originally Posted by evolveme

...Namely, how you see yourself deferring to butches and transmasculine others always. How you appear more concerned with their comfort than your own. How your need to do this has left you feeling silenced and misunderstood.

When reading these posts, what kept occurring to me was your need to speak of the masculine other in this thread...

{{{{{{{{{{{e}}}}}}}}}}}

I think you misunderstand my point. While it is true that I am always conscious of posting in a way that supports Butches and Transmen, and while I did have that epiphany about polite equalling caring--or not equalling it, as the case may be, lol--Adele had asked if we, as Femmes, enforce the male-centric viewpoint (or masculine-centric). That was my main point: yes, indeed we do; it has happened to me in a very negative way that has silenced me.

Butches have not silenced me.

Transmen have not silenced me.

Femmes have silenced me.

I'm sorry that I didn't make the point more effectively.

I don't want to leave you thinking that I'm backpedaling, or that I haven't said the things you quoted. It does seem to me, though, that you missed my emphasis and thought I was saying it was the Butches who left me feeling this way when I was trying to say it was Femmes who have had these judgmental interactions with me.

I suppose this is another area where I haven't been clear enough---after a while I start to feel like I'm beating the subject into the ground and so I do use shorthand references, my apologies--anyhow, when I posted the last one you quoted, about always being careful not to hit the hot buttons or use the trigger phrases, and being discouraged enough to just not post? That has come about because of the silencing. It didn't used to be that way for me. I've always been conscious about posting respectfully, not just about Butches and Transmen but about all of us, but I didn't used to feel so hopelessly discouraged.

And now I really do feel like I'm beating the subject into the ground. *wry smile* Time for me to go offline; if I'm not back tomorrow I'll be back Monday.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Bit

Butches have not silenced me.

Transmen have not silenced me.

Femmes have silenced me.

{{{Bit}}}

I think this is a great place to talk about the ways in which that has happened. And why are we silencing one another? What does it mean that we do this?

Are we, as a friend suggested (thanks hudson), playing out the evolutionary battle in a competition for resources (butch/masculine people)? Is this what that competition begins to look like when it becomes so fiercely ingrained?

And is this why our masculine counterparts seem to be in their own power-struggle? Or does it truly, at baseline, have to do with misogyny?

Is misogyny the result of that struggle?

These questions aren't really for this thread, I suppose, so forgive my tangential mind. But I do wonder about the ways that we silence one another. And at least about the more topical reasons as to why.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by evolveme

{{{Bit}}}

I think this is a great place to talk about the ways in which that has happened. And why are we silencing one another? What does it mean that we do this?

Are we, as a friend suggested (thanks hudson), playing out the evolutionary battle in a competition for resources (butch/masculine people)? Is this what that competition begins to look like when it becomes so fiercely ingrained?

And is this why our masculine counterparts seem to be in their own power-struggle? Or does it truly, at baseline, have to do with misogyny?

Is misogyny the result of that struggle?

These questions aren't really for this thread, I suppose, so forgive my tangential mind. But I do wonder about the ways that we silence one another. And at least about the more topical reasons as to why.

I think it may be that the competition is fear-based. Not just fear of butch as resource but fear of not being enough.

We throw ourselves into our lives so thoroughly. When someone else comes along who may take up space in our lives that we are not willing to yield, we want to scream :shutup:.

Instead of screaming, we turn into those catty, nasty women none of us seem to like or want to be. We gather with our friends to be reminded of how fabulous WE are and how fabulouse THEY aren't.

This, to me, has nothing to do with butch-femme and everything to do with SuperId, Id, and Ego.

And, for what it's worth, I think this is very apropos to the dynamic and evolution of this thread.

[hippieflowergirl]

Originally Posted by bit

{{{{{{{{{{{e}}}}}}}}}}}

i think you misunderstand my point. While it is true that i am always conscious of posting in a way that supports butches and transmen, and while i did have that epiphany about polite equalling caring--or not equalling it, as the case may be, lol--adele had asked if we, as femmes, enforce the male-centric viewpoint (or masculine-centric). That was my main point: Yes, indeed we do; it has happened to me in a very negative way that has silenced me.

butches have not silenced me.

Transmen have not silenced me.

Femmes have silenced me.

i'm sorry that i didn't make the point more effectively.

I don't want to leave you thinking that i'm backpedaling, or that i haven't said the things you quoted. It does seem to me, though, that you missed my emphasis and thought i was saying it was the butches who left me feeling this way when i was trying to say it was femmes who have had these judgmental interactions with me.

I suppose this is another area where i haven't been clear enough---after a while i start to feel like i'm beating the subject into the ground and so i do use shorthand references, my apologies--anyhow, when i posted the last one you quoted, about always being careful not to hit the hot buttons or use the trigger phrases, and being discouraged enough to just not post? That has come about because of the silencing. It didn't used to be that way for me. I've always been conscious about posting respectfully, not just about butches and transmen but about all of us, but i didn't used to feel so hopelessly discouraged.

And now i really do feel like i'm beating the subject into the ground. *wry smile* time for me to go offline; if i'm not back tomorrow i'll be back monday.

~ a-fucking-men ~
~ halle-fucking-lujah ~
~ and holla back ~
(as we trash-a-licious types here in the ghettoplex say)

[apretty]

Originally Posted by hippieflowergirl

~ a-fucking-men ~
~ halle-fucking-lujah ~
~ and holla back ~
(as we trash-a-licious types here in the ghettoplex say)

how and in what ways have you allowed yourself to be silenced by femmes? sorry, i do feel like this is blaming the "femme", and as the "femme" i'm feeling curious about what this means, because so so so often i've heard women described as gossiping, catty, skank bitches--by MEN, so i would just like to make absolute sure that we're not perpetuating false stereotypes.

so i would love to look at specifics or maybe we could say, 'my expectations were xyz, and a femme friend did this....' or 'one time a femme did.....' because i truly believe this is painting femme with broad negative brush strokes when we say 'femmes did...' and don'tchaknow that keeps us all down in the misogyny muck(ery)

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by apretty

how and in what ways have you allowed yourself to be silenced by femmes? sorry, i do feel like this is blaming the "femme", and as the "femme" i'm feeling curious about what this means, because so so so often i've heard women described as gossiping, catty, skank bitches--by MEN, so i would just like to make absolute sure that we're not perpetuating false stereotypes.

so i would love to look at specifics or maybe we could say, 'my expectations were xyz, and a femme friend did this....' or 'one time a femme did.....' because i truly believe this is painting femme with broad negative brush strokes when we say 'femmes did...' and don'tchaknow that keeps us all down in the misogyny muck(ery)

I love what you're saying here, and it's important to me too. I don't want to get caught in the trap of negative stereotyping, especially not of other feminine people.

But I posted earlier about how female and feminine people are socialized to "be good" (so that they are more easily controlled and thus more palatable to male/masculine others) and how this is so overwhelming that it forces natural tendencies to aggression into what is termed relational aggression.

You can witness these types of behaviors as early as kindergarten, even pre-school.

Girls will gather and isolate. They will shun and gossip. They will punish one another by way of social mechanisms (you can even see these behaviors displayed among certain gay male groups). It takes a strong sensibility and a compassionate heart to avoid these behaviors, because they too are heavily socialized.

ETA: I think it's much more useful to understand it than to rage about the tendency.

[blush]

Originally Posted by evolveme

I love what you're saying here, and it's important to me too. I don't want to get caught in the trap of negative stereotyping, especially not of other feminine people.

But I posted earlier about how female and feminine people are socialized to "be good" (so that they are more easily controlled and thus more palatable to male/masculine others) and how this is so overwhelming that it forces natural tendencies to aggression into what is termed relational aggression.

You can witness these types of behaviors as early as kindergarten, even pre-school.

Girls will gather and isolate. They will shun and gossip. They will punish one another by way of social mechanisms (you can even see these behaviors displayed among certain gay male groups). It takes a strong sensibility and a compassionate heart to avoid these behaviors, because they too are heavily socialized.

ETA: I think it's much more useful to understand it than to rage about the tendency.

I'm not sure what you mean by pointing out that gay male groups do this as well?

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by blush

I'm not sure what you mean by pointing out that gay male groups do this as well?

I think that just as women encompass masculine traits, men emcompass feminine traits. That was my read on it.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by evolveme

You can witness these types of behaviors as early as kindergarten, even pre-school.

i fought 'believing' you or acknowledging this truth until i got to the part about seeing it in little girls... while i am childless, i am hugely involved in my nieces' life and this struggle-for-power, sadly rings true.

and while i do (reluctantly) acknowledge this behavior, i cannot help but wonder where it stems from (because i want to take the root cause of this 'round back!) and while i do think that we've ALL (to some degree) experienced this 'good girl' conditioning, i can't help thinking about this *struggle* as a form of competition, not unlike a 'beauty pageant', where there can be just one (crowned) winner. girls are conditioned to 'be good', i mean that's an obvious part of it--but i think sadly, more so they're conditioned to 'win' in ways that defeat other girls/women. for some reason it would seem that there can be just *one* female 'top' position (which they can never really attain, just struggle for!) while men are conditioned to work/play/win *together*. (not to mention that this is celebrated as a 'masculine' trait)

i think also, that little girls are taught to not trust *female*, bombarded with messages of 'less-than' and weakness and quite possibly, if grown women are searching to pin-point how and why they've been 'silenced' we find ourselves looking for ways in which 'femmes' have 'silenced' us because we *still* believe that female, specifically femme = EVIL (due to our heavy and as yet, very UNpacked knapsack), not to mention, i strongly believe that we all find what we're looking for...

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by apretty

i think also, that little girls are taught to not trust *female*, bombarded with messages of 'less-than' and weakness and quite possibly, if grown women are searching to pin-point how and why they've been 'silenced' we find ourselves looking for ways in which 'femmes' have 'silenced' us because we *still* believe that female, specifically femme = EVIL (due to our heavy and as yet, very UNpacked knapsack), not to mention, i strongly believe that we all find what we're looking for...

When I asked the question do Femme's judge each other harshly, it was a myopic question related to the topic here, and the microcosm that is the B/F community.

In no way did I mean to imply that *only* Femmes judge. Or silence. Or anything.

I also wonder about the validity of being silenced by anything other than ones self. There must be some pretty heavy self imposed borders that allow a person to think this. To me, nobody has the power to take away our voices. We mute them as a willing participant.

I have to do a big ole think on feminine and/or Femme equaling = Evil. I have to think if those are the messages I have received.

If I am dating somebody and another Femme persues and ultimately ends up with said person? Is the Femme really the bad person? Or is it the person I was dating who has free will?

[christie]

Originally Posted by apretty

i think also, that little girls are taught to not trust *female*, bombarded with messages of 'less-than' and weakness and quite possibly, if grown women are searching to pin-point how and why they've been 'silenced' we find ourselves looking for ways in which 'femmes' have 'silenced' us because we *still* believe that female, specifically femme = EVIL (due to our heavy and as yet, very UNpacked knapsack), not to mention, i strongly believe that we all find what we're looking for... [/FONT]

Thank you for using these exact words. Until I came across this thread, I had been composing a thread titled "Living Less Than" to broach this very real issue.

One of the biggest struggles I have had in adapting to living with/caring for my precious motherinlaw is her very entrenched view of men/males and women/females.

I love my motherinlaw. I treat her as I would want one of my sisterinlaw's to treat my mother. And yet, she is the bane of my existence at times.

She is ENAMORED with men. Period. Doesn't matter the character of the man - if he was born with a penis, its her job/duty/obligation as a less than woman to cater to his every need. Nothing pisses me off more than watching her dote over the uneducated redneck who we have hired to perform some type of manual labor around the house. She sat, for over two hours, while the plumber worked on our well pump. Not did she sit there and distract a man with prattle while he was being paid by the hour, she also made sure he had ice water. The selfadmitted illiterate handyguy down the street for whom she cooks a full blown, southern Sunday dinner. I won't even get started on her view of her son, the unmedicated bipolar, raging alcoholic, unemployed idiot. Nothing is EVER a man's fault - its always "one of them whores".

In all my nearly 40 years have I ever, ever seen this level of kowtowing to males. Never have I felt the need to cook a meal for someone I was paying by the hour. Doubt I ever will.

Imagine how difficult it is to watch this play out, day after day. Yes, I was raised by a mother with a similar background and is in the same generation. However, I was taught that I could achieve anything I desired. I could be, do, have just the same as my brothers. I would like to think that it was my father's way of forming me into what I now call being a "grown ass woman."

This might have been a slight derail and for that, I apologize. I do think that as we talk about femme issues that this is relevant and how we overcome it, bypass it or defeat it is important.

I am tired of being told or it being inferred that I am less than because of my gender. It is very contradictory in what I see in the mirror, what I present to the world and how I move through the world.

My femme is not always wrapped in a nice pretty package with that disarming southern drawl. Sometimes she is. Sometimes she is that abrasive, bitchy tall redhead in lovely, lovely stilettoes that can be hurled at one's head in a nanosecond.

Either way, one thing is consistent... she is me... my truth... my strength... every day.

Christie