school experiences for trans folks

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Softness,

Don't you think the school (teacher/admin) needs to talk to the parent(s) about this situation?

I think it is admirable that your daughter is acknowledging the child's gender; however, the parents need to be aware of this situation and (hopefully) be on board (as well as administration) with a reasonable, aware and compassionate approach to recognizing and affirming this child's gender.

I disagree that the parents need to be aware

I disagree that a big hoopla has to be made


I Took Enough Ass Beatings For Telling My Mother I Was A Boy...A Phone Call Home And A Stink From School Would Have Only Made It Worse,
Dylan

P.S. I'm sure the child has already informed the parents. If the parents were cool, they'd have already started the hoopla

P.P.S. We can agree to disagree though

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I disagree that the parents need to be aware

I disagree that a big hoopla has to be made


I Took Enough Ass Beatings For Telling My Mother I Was A Boy...A Phone Call Home And A Stink From School Would Have Only Made It Worse,
Dylan

P.S. I'm sure the child has already informed the parents. If the parents were cool, they'd have already started the hoopla

P.P.S. We can agree to disagree though

I'm not saying a hoopla needs to be made, but I think most parents would want to be informed (especially at this young age) that a plan of action (Softness' daughter has already taken steps) has been undertaken by a school to accommodate a child's preferred/actual gender.

A teacher can also put themselves at risk (this is Softness' daughter's first job from what I understand as a teacher) for making such decisions without informing the parents.

If a teacher or a school administration has agreed to accommodate and acknowledge the child's gender, without informing the parents (and this continues beyond Junior/Senior Kindergarten--even though, I do think this could even be asking for trouble legal-wise), this could create huge issues for the teacher if the parents are not informed and do not agree upon the school's action.

It just is.

ETA:
I just re-read the OP and the child is actually in second/third grade? At this grade level, where I live, there is no way that parents would not take action against our School Board if a teacher had been recognizing and taking solid steps to acknowledge a child's true gender without the parent(s)' explicit consent to do so.

That teacher and school board are really putting themselves at risk by embarking on a course of gender identity action without parental knowledge and it could be a huge liability for both teacher and employer. I am just being realistic--despite the good intentions of the teacher/principal (and whomever else is on board with acknowledging the child's gender).

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

I'm not saying a hoopla needs to be made, but I think most parents would want to be informed (especially at this young age) that a plan of action (Softness' daughter has already taken steps) has been undertaken by a school to accommodate a child's preferred/actual gender.

A teacher can also put themselves at risk (this is Softness' daughter's first job from what I understand as a teacher) for making such decisions without informing the parents.

If a teacher or a school administration has agreed to accommodate and acknowledge the child's gender, without informing the parents (and this continues beyond Junior/Senior Kindergarten--even though, I do think this could even be asking for trouble legal-wise), this could create huge issues for the teacher if the parents are not informed and do not agree upon the school's action.

It just is.

I understand what you're saying.

I'm just saying the parents already know. The kid didn't just pop up ONLY at school saying this. The kid has said this at home, probably for years. If the kid isn't talking about how the parents know about this, the parents aren't cool with it.

I got a ten spot says the parents don't handle the phone call well, and get pissed at the school, and nix the plan. This will also make it more difficult for the kid. When really, what's it matter what line the kid stands in?


Dylan

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I understand what you're saying.

I'm just saying the parents already know. The kid didn't just pop up ONLY at school saying this. The kid has said this at home, probably for years. If the kid isn't talking about how the parents know about this, the parents aren't cool with it.

I got a ten spot says the parents don't handle the phone call well, and get pissed at the school, and nix the plan. This will also make it more difficult for the kid. When really, what's it matter what line the kid stands in?


Dylan

Dylan,

I take no issue with the fact that the parents already know--and that the child has probably--explicitly--stated their gender to their parents.

However, it isn't just about the line--and whose standing in it--this issue will progress from the line, to the loo, to names (perhaps?), etc.

If one step is taken (to put them in the line they prefer), others will have to follow.

That child WILL come home and say that at SCHOOL they are allowed to be do this or that, be called this or that, (etc.). THAT is when the shit will hit the fan that the school has been making decisions WITHOUT the parent(s)' knowledge.

It will not just stop at letting the child go into a certain gender line division. And, if Softness' daughter is referring to this child with female pronouns without the parent's consent? You think THAT is going to go over well? It isn't and Softness' daughter needs to be aware that she is putting her job in jeopardy by making these decisions without Administrative AND parental support.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Dylan,

I take no issue with the fact that the parents already know--and that the child has probably--explicitly--stated their gender to their parents.

However, it isn't just about the line--and whose standing in it--this issue will progress from the line, to the loo, to names (perhaps?), etc.

If one step is taken (to put them in the line they prefer), others will have to follow.

That child WILL come home and say that at SCHOOL they are allowed to be do this or that, be called this or that, (etc.). THAT is when the shit will hit the fan that the school has been making decisions WITHOUT the parent(s)' knowledge.

It will not just stop at letting the child go into a certain gender line division. And, if Softness' daughter is referring to this child with female pronouns without the parent's consent? You think THAT is going to go over well? It isn't and Softness' daughter needs to be aware that she is putting her job in jeopardy by making these decisions without Administrative AND parental support.

Again, I totally get your point.

Do you really think this kid is stupid enough to run home and say, "At school, I stand in the girls' line?" I'm sure my second grade teacher would hav e gotten in trouble for letting me sit on the boys' side...right after I got a major ass beating. Hence the reason I never told my mother what went on at school. By second grade, transkids know very well how to walk the tightrope with their parents.

The Teacher Can Avoid Pronouns Now, But What's She Going To Do When The Parents Say No Way And Demand She Treat Randy Like A Boy?,
Dylan

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Again, I totally get your point.

Do you really think this kid is stupid enough to run home and say, "At school, I stand in the girls' line?" I'm sure my second grade teacher would hav e gotten in trouble for letting me sit on the boys' side...right after I got a major ass beating. Hence the reason I never told my mother what went on at school. By second grade, transkids know very well how to walk the tightrope with their parents.

The Teacher Can Avoid Pronouns Now, But What's She Going To Do When The Parents Say No Way And Demand She Treat Randy Like A Boy?,
Dylan

I see your points as well, Dylan.

I just think that things have a way of making themselves known and, even if the child doesn't make the parents aware that the school is acknowledging her, other parents or teachers WILL make it known to the parents.

It is a no win situation for a teacher to acknowledge a child's gender without parental knowledge.

If I was teaching a teenager and referred to him as he (despite birth assigned sex); that teenager does NOT tell (due to their awareness of parental negative consequences) but I would have to KNOW that there are SO many other ways the parents WILL find out--a friend will tell, another parent, another teacher, meetings, church, GOSSIP. *Ms. so and so refers to your daughter as Sam!...did you know that ? *

If I don't get the principal AND school board backing and parental support (!)-- my job is in real jeopardy and this is in a country that has far more rights when it comes to these situations.

[Gayla]

I understand the legal stuff, I really do. Married to a teacher for a long time, etc. etc. so I totally get it.

I read that the child has a gender neutral name so I don't think the teacher has "changed" the child's name. I'm not sure if the teacher has changed pronouns or if the OP did that simple out of respect.

I think there are ways to be inclusive in a classroom environment without the risks. Yes, there are guidelines, but there is also quite a bit of freedom within each classroom. Things like mixing up the lines not on gender, etc. Just the fact that the teacher is at all aware gender issues like this even exist is going to give this student, and all of them really, an advantage.

And maybe, when any of these children get to the next grade level and with a new teacher they may say, "Ms. X didn't make us line up as boys and girls, we just got to line up as people."

I also have to say that I think the level of fear that we experience over doing something "wrong" often keeps very simple things from changing for the good. I would really hate to see her stop doing things that empower all the children in her classroom out of fear that how she interacts with one child may get her in "trouble".

[Soft*Silver]

I should point out that this is a SUMMER school..not associated with the public school system. It is at a child care center and offers higher grade classes (up to 5th grade) during the summer for working parents.

Its actually the perfect first job for my daughter as a new teacher. She is getting her feet wet in a classroom of her own, with a small number of students in a much more informal setting that a public school. She has daily meetings with the principal and a few of the other teachers (some are teachers from public schools who work there during the summer) have taken her under their wings.

I also have thought about Randy and her apparent comfortableness about her gender ID. She isnt at all fearful of talking about it or asking for her needs to be met. And she is accepting of what my daughter can and cant do for her. So I am thinking she must have some source of acceptance being given to her at home.


I will tell you more when I get to talk to my daughter again...

and again, thank you for all the feedback, suggestions and reps!

[Andrew, Jr.]

For me, it is very hard to relate to a kind teacher. I just remember the teachers I had confided in, and laughed in my face, or would not let me use the boys bathroom, or play kickball or dodgeball with the boys.

In summer school, remember I went to summer school all grades, each and every summer because of my learning disabilities and failing in school. It was a requirement in order to get me thru to the next grade. In other words, I was just passed along for someone else to deal with.

When I confided in teachers with my heart and soul. I thought I was doing the right thing. I never would have thought that it would have blown up in my face as it did. I never would have opened my mouth had I had known that.

If you saw the movie "Blind Side", I am like the simple Michael Oher. But I am not gifted with forgetting the past as he is. I wish I had that.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by softness

I also have thought about Randy and her apparent comfortableness about her gender ID. She isnt at all fearful of talking about it or asking for her needs to be met. And she is accepting of what my daughter can and cant do for her. So I am thinking she must have some source of acceptance being given to her at home.

I don't agree with where you say Randy 'must have some sort of acceptance ...at home'

I talked to my second grade teacher, because she A) listened and B) seemed to understand (or let me say, she didn't judge, call me names, or 'correct me'). I could be 'matter of fact about it', because she was cool. It was the first time anyone bothered to take me seriously, and I had a lot to say. I could also just ask for what I wanted/needed, because I was in second grade, and when you're in second grade you don't really care about asking for what you want/need. I mean, if Mrs. Clifford said 'no', then ok who cares? This could very well be the first time ANY adult has been cool with Randy, and she may just be testing the waters. It's not like eight year olds have the best sense of boundaries, and Randy may truly have no idea what she's 'allowed' to do in this new sense of acceptance. Hell trans adults don't know what the hell they're 'allowed' to do either sometimes. So, I really wouldn't assume that just because Randy is being vocal and expressing herself that she has some sort of acceptance at home. This may very well be the first time anyone has bothered to take her seriously. Trust me, there was absolutely NO acceptance at my home, and I very much pushed Mrs. Clifford's boundaries and was quite vocal in her class because I knew I was safe from harrassment of other kids and gender roles. A phone call home would have ruined all of that...anyone talking to my parents would have fucked it all up.


Dylan

[Soft*Silver]

no, she isnt. She told the child she will keep calling him he, because thats what you do in school, but she knows he believes he is a girl. She seemed very happy with that, from what my kid said. It doesnt take alot to please a kid. Acknowledgement is usually what they need. And for someone to be present with them in their reality...

again, I am pretty sure she talked to the principal. I cant imagine my kid not going to her leader/mentor.

And this principal also knows her/us. My kid went to preschool there for 3 years. They know I am a lesbian and they know Liz and I are quite liberal. The principal didnt care back then and she certainly doesnt care now. She is (from my daughter's account) mentoring her....and my kid is absorbing as much as she can....

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Dylan,
It will not just stop at letting the child go into a certain gender line division. And, if Softness' daughter is referring to this child with female pronouns without the parent's consent? You think THAT is going to go over well? It isn't and Softness' daughter needs to be aware that she is putting her job in jeopardy by making these decisions without Administrative AND parental support.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by softness

no, she isnt. She told the child she will keep calling him he, because thats what you do in school, but she knows he believes he is a girl. She seemed very happy with that, from what my kid said. It doesnt take alot to please a kid. Acknowledgement is usually what they need. And for someone to be present with them in their reality...

again, I am pretty sure she talked to the principal. I cant imagine my kid not going to her leader/mentor.

And this principal also knows her/us. My kid went to preschool there for 3 years. They know I am a lesbian and they know Liz and I are quite liberal. The principal didnt care back then and she certainly doesnt care now. She is (from my daughter's account) mentoring her....and my kid is absorbing as much as she can....

Got it about the pronouns--my mistake.

Glad to hear your daughter is in touch with her principal and, most importantly, trying to best make this child comfortable the time she has her in the classroom.

She sounds like a teacher who is open to making all students feel welcome and that is wonderful.

[Soft*Silver]

Soon, I thank you for bringing up points like this. This is exactly why I wanted to bring this to our forums. I need feedback not just from the trans folks, but also in regard to my daughter's role as the teacher. I see your point of view, Soon, as well as Dylan's. In fact, my kid and I have talked about how she has already felt concern about another child because it would mean talking to a parent who had already shown anger when they were called about their child. (not Randy, a different child with different issues)

I did long term subsituting in NY for a high school level vocational school. I had two classrooms...one for behaviorally challenged kids in a community work program, and another academic one for adolescent sexual predators. I was also a teacher's aide in NH for DD kids. I LOVED working with these kids, all of them. I wish I had been a teacher instead of a counselor now. (And I have too maimed to go back and get that degree) I commend the teachers of today...they have so many things to consider when they are working with their classrooms...

Originally Posted by Dylan

I disagree that the parents need to be aware

I disagree that a big hoopla has to be made


I Took Enough Ass Beatings For Telling My Mother I Was A Boy...A Phone Call Home And A Stink From School Would Have Only Made It Worse,
Dylan

P.S. I'm sure the child has already informed the parents. If the parents were cool, they'd have already started the hoopla

P.P.S. We can agree to disagree though

[Jesse]

Wishing I could be of assistance here but I was raised in the early 60's and one didn't talk about this sort of thing out loud to any adult where I was raised, back then for fear of being locked away in some rubber room. I tried telling my mom when I was around seven...it was not a pleasant experience to live through.

I do agree that both your daughter and the school need to make sure they are careful in their approach of this situation. Mixing up the lines is a quick solve to that situation and would also allow that child to not stick out like a sore thumb for harassment from the boys. I am also extremely concerned about that child having to use the boys restroom. Little boys do some mean things to other kids in the restroom, especially to those who don't quite fit in. Some schools will offer a separate bathroom for that child to use.

Also as much as I tend to agree that the parents likely already know if this child is this outspoken about their gender, I do feel your daughter may be jeopardizing her position if the parents preferences are not adhered to.

[Soft*Silver]

even before this became an issue, she was allowing one child at a time to go into the bathroom. Thats why they stood in line in the hallway....

[QUOTE=Tranzman;138110]
I am also extremely concerned about that child having to use the boys restroom. Little boys do some mean things to other kids in the restroom, especially to those who don't quite fit in. QUOTE]

[Jesse]

Thank you for pointing that out to me...my bad...it's late.

[quote=softness;138123]even before this became an issue, she was allowing one child at a time to go into the bathroom. Thats why they stood in line in the hallway....

Originally Posted by Tranzman

I am also extremely concerned about that child having to use the boys restroom. Little boys do some mean things to other kids in the restroom, especially to those who don't quite fit in. QUOTE]

[Soft*Silver]

what a wonderful set of responses I am getting! This is exactly the kind of stuff that will help her become a good teacher!

First, I am the one who changed pronouns in my post. She does not change pronouns in the classroom. I did so out of courtesy for our own trans community here...

I am not so much worried about how Randy is going to handle not getting the same positive regard in other classes. He is, after all, in 2 or 3 grade. He has had public education before. And he has certainly encountered the phobia of our culture somehow, in someway, at sometime in his life. I agree with Dylan,that one teacher being cool is better than no teacher being cool. But she must be cool and professional!

Someone asked what other things my daughter does re gender in the classroom. She doesnt assign tasks based on gender. Girls dont always clean up and boys dont always do physical stuff. When teams are needed, she includes all genders in each team. She does not allow the word Gay to be used as a slang term. (Especially at that age!) I know it means something very different now, but its still a crudely masked hate term. And yes, a child said it in her class and that lecture was given. There are no girl areas and boy areas..like the pegs that hold their coats and the bins that hold their lunches and show and tell items.


one more thing about my child. When she was in preschool there, they went for a walk one day. The teacher said they were going to go visit father's house. My daughter came home and told me the teacher tried to take her to visit her father (who had abandoned her right after our divorce) but he wasnt home. But they were going to try tomorrow. I was confused...and when I dropped her off the next day I asked the teacher about it. I remember her looking at me like I had said babjfiahsnalal....and then she remembered what this was about...

see, this school sits on a church's property. It use to be their old Sunday School classrooms. The teacher was taking them to see the priest at his house that also sat on the property.

This taught my child (and me) a valuable lesson. Sometimes the most innocent situations can cause major problems.

She isnt trying to be a hero to this kid. She just wants him to feel comfortable in her classroom. Her most significant action has been to just talk to him, one on one, and see what he is thinking and explain to him that she has to do things to accomodate everyone. But she is aware of and acknowledges who "she" is.

I have this story to tell about different classrooms

when she was little, she stayed at my mother's alot. And at my sister's sometimes. And eventually with her father and his new wife after he came back into her life. I had rules...my parents broke all those rules. I broke some of my exes rules. He broke some of mine...it was chaos for a very short time because we all wised up about how crazy we were making her and I had a little talk with her. I said, "different rules for different houses" In other words, when in Rome, do as the Romans do.

When she was with me, she lived under my rules, with her dad, his rules, and with my family, their rules. I kinda think kids think like this in general...but we adults had to sit down and figure it all out...

[Soft*Silver]

Soon, you bring up valid points...(scary ones for me, re my daughter)...as i said, I am pretty sure she talked to her principal about Randy.

the point of my thread, tho, is to get feedback from the trans folks, about their time in school, and how it affected them and what they wish a teacher would have done for them...

but please do (and anyone else too) jump in and offer the other side, the legalese side...I need to be able to bring that to her too...

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

I'm not saying a hoopla needs to be made, but I think most parents would want to be informed (especially at this young age) that a plan of action (Softness' daughter has already taken steps) has been undertaken by a school to accommodate a child's preferred/actual gender.

A teacher can also put themselves at risk (this is Softness' daughter's first job from what I understand as a teacher) for making such decisions without informing the parents.

If a teacher or a school administration has agreed to accommodate and acknowledge the child's gender, without informing the parents (and this continues beyond Junior/Senior Kindergarten--even though, I do think this could even be asking for trouble legal-wise), this could create huge issues for the teacher if the parents are not informed and do not agree upon the school's action.

It just is.

ETA:
I just re-read the OP and the child is actually in second/third grade? At this grade level, where I live, there is no way that parents would not take action against our School Board if a teacher had been recognizing and taking solid steps to acknowledge a child's true gender without the parent(s)' explicit consent to do so.

That teacher and school board are really putting themselves at risk by embarking on a course of gender identity action without parental knowledge and it could be a huge liability for both teacher and employer. I am just being realistic--despite the good intentions of the teacher/principal (and whomever else is on board with acknowledging the child's gender).

[Soon]

Originally Posted by softness

Soon, you bring up valid points...(scary ones for me, re my daughter)...as i said, I am pretty sure she talked to her principal about Randy.

the point of my thread, tho, is to get feedback from the trans folks, about their time in school, and how it affected them and what they wish a teacher would have done for them...

but please do (and anyone else too) jump in and offer the other side, the legalese side...I need to be able to bring that to her too...

I will back out of the thread now, Softness.

I have no legal expertise except for being in education for over ten years and know what would occur in my Board if this was happening without parents' knowledge and consent. (and this is Canada)

Good luck to your daughter and kudos to her on striving to build and maintain an inclusive teaching environment--I hope she gets the support she needs in this matter.

[Dylan]

So, besides standing in a girl's line, what else is your daughter doing, Softness?

Because, I do see what HSIN is saying, but what is your daughter going to do when the parents are irate and refuse to allow the child's gender to be acknowledged?

I mean, can't your daughter just avoid pronouns with Randy? Let Randi stand in girl lines or do the girl things and avoid the parent teacher freak out altogether?


Dylan