Class, Privilege, and Social Markers

[Greyson]

Medusa, congratulations on your promotion. The class thing.... Initially as a child I thought much of what I saw as unfairness was more about race, ethnicity, not class. Honestly, I just did not see many poor white people where I lived. If you were poor, you most likely you were brown or black.

As I grew into my adulthood, I began to realize the big unspoken is class. Here in the USA there is the ethos of "Pull Yourself Up by the Bootstraps." This can be a hard one to live up to because one person's "boot straps" are anothers bare feet.

Something that impacted me greatly in the not so long ago past was when I took a position in the evenings and weekends as a security guard. During the day I have worked as an Planner for many years. This is a white collar profession. I have been in this profession since 89.

One day I was attending a meeting for my day job and at the other end of the table was an African American gentleman and graduate of Wheaton at this meeting. He came up to me during the break and asked me if I was not in fact the security guard that worked in the exclusive High Rise where he resided. I told him "Yes, it is me." He was clearly surprised. I tell you his interaction with me after that was very different. Subtle things. Now when he saw me at the security job, he would make a little small talk with me about my day ecetera. Previous to him realizing that the security job position was not my primary job, he never talked to me.

I am rambling a bit. The point that stayed with me is that here wan another "POC" and yet the perceived class differences did impact the nuances of our shared communication and I am sure our lives.

I just threw this out as an example. It is one incident but not exclusive to this one person or situation. "Class" is not something that has been openly acknowledged much in some cultures, but it is a marker that is defined and used in our institutions, decision making processes and so on.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Medusa, congratulations on your promotion. The class thing.... Initially as a child I thought much of what I saw as unfairness was more about race, ethnicity, not class. Honestly, I just did not see many poor white people where I lived. If you were poor, you most likely you were brown or black.

As I grew into my adulthood, I began to realize the big unspoken is class. Here in the USA there is the ethos of "Pull Yourself Up by the Bootstraps." This can be a hard one to live up to because one person's "boot straps" are anothers bare feet.

Something that impacted me greatly in the not so long ago past was when I took a position in the evenings and weekends as a security guard. During the day I have worked as an Planner for many years. This is a white collar profession. I have been in this profession since 89.

One day I was attending a meeting for my day job and at the other end of the table was an African American gentleman and graduate of Wheaton at this meeting. He came up to me during the break and asked me if I was not in fact the security guard that worked in the exclusive High Rise where he resided. I told him "Yes, it is me." He was clearly surprised. I tell you his interaction with me after that was very different. Subtle things. Now when he saw me at the security job, he would make a little small talk with me about my day ecetera. Previous to him realizing that the security job position was not my primary job, he never talked to me.

I am rambling a bit. The point that stayed with me is that here wan another "POC" and yet the perceived class differences did impact the nuances of our shared communication and I am sure our lives.

I just threw this out as an example. It is one incident but not exclusive to this one person or situation. "Class" is not something that has been openly acknowledged much in some cultures, but it is a marker that is defined and used in our institutions, decision making processes and so on.

Oooh Greyson! This is a GREAT example.

I actually had a rather similiar experience about 6 years ago.

Jack and I were trying to save up money to move in together and between the $400 - $500 a month cell bills and the $4500 it was going to take for the Penske and move, I took a second job at Office Depot.

During the day from 8am-5pm, I worked in a very corporate environment state job as a Project Manager with a $10million budget. At night from 6pm - 11pm, I sold office chairs, stocked pens and pencils, and worked a cash register. Ive never thought of myself as "too good" for any kind of work and I didnt even think to be embarrassed the night a colleague showed up at Office Depot with one of her children to buy school supplies.

She was clearly embarrassed on my behalf and assured me that she "wouldnt tell anyone" about my 2nd job. I assured her there was nothing to hide and that I had no issues with anyone knowing I was working a second job.
Imagine my surprise when my then boss called me in his office a few days later to discuss with me why I was working a second job and how it "looked bad" to have a high-level manager working a "menial" job.

He also advised me in the same conversation that it was "inappropriate" for me to be so friendly with our janitor. Miss Jay had been at that job on the same floor for 30-something years at that point and was a fucking BAD ASS woman who was raising 4 grandchildren and who also didnt take shit from anyone.

After his tsk-tsk'ing, I advised him that he could either give me a raise or shut his trap and that who I associated with was really none of his damn business. (Did I mentioned I was fired from that job about a month later?)

I applaud anyone who does what they need to do to get where they want to be, whether it be pushing papers or dumping trash bins.
Edited to add: pushing papers and dumping trash bins example was not meant to imply that these are "menial" tasks, rather than a reference to my own experience of working to make ends meet.

[Diva]

Both my parents grew up very poor....children of the depression.

But from the time my Dad got out of the army, he was a banker. Eventually, he was an Executive Vice President for a bank here in Austin when I was in elementary/jr high/high school. We had money, but nobody knew it. And my Mom made all of my clothes.

NOW, I'm very proud of that fact, but when I was in school, I was ashamed of that and was made fun of because my clothes weren't store-bought. "Things" became important to me.

Then I married a man from a family with lots of money, and, for a time, I became one of those snobby rich wives who thought they were better than those people who make their own clothes. When I look back on that time in my life, it makes me nearly sick to my stomach over what I became ~ like my mother-in-law. It disgusts me even as I write this. I'm not proud to admit it.

Well now, I have been without a job for over a year, and, even though I have some money, there are times when I am overdrawn with only rice and a cracker and maybe some applesauce in my cupboards.

But You know what? I am the happiest I have ever been. Pride died a slow death for me, but I sang at the funeral and kissed it goodbye. It's all good.

Granted, I'm 57, and I just really do not GIVE a rat's ass, but that's another thread.....I am rich with friends, a daughter who loves me and a puppy who gives me kisses.

[SuperFemme]

I struggled as working poor for twenty years.

I had left a bad marriage with two girls, and later had my son but the relationship didn't even last until his birth.

The cost of just being able to go to work was astronomical. In SoCal, even earning around 100k a year we were no more than one month ahead in savings, aand believe me I didn't earn that kind of salary until the last few years I worked. I had worked two and three jobs to feed, clothe, and house my family and gone to school at night. It took me almost 4 years to earn my B.A. Degree.

I can do 100 things to top ramen to make it a meal.

So then I became disabled through a car accident, and man. Talk about being poor, but now I had the added layer of being disabled. I felt like people refused to look at me or see me.

So then came the settlement. Can I just tell you that I was happier when we had just what we needed? Money makes people weird. I know that sounds silly to say, but from the perspective of being poor to suddenly not having to worry? Things changed in some pretty fucked up ways.

[Andrew, Jr.]

My beloved Grandparents grew up during the depression. They knew what it was to go hungry at night, not to have the things we all take for granite - like shoes, or clothes, even food. My Grandmother used to cook alot of eggs, and from that point, my Grandfather lost his teeth because of it. Not because he lack food intake, but the nuitrition part of it. Later on in life, his teeth were fixed.

My Grandparents both came from large families. My Grandfather's family owned a very large farm that was broken down, and each of his siblings and himself got a portion of it. My Grandmother and Grandfather hired only blacks to work on the farm. Why? In the words of my Grandmother, it was the right thing to do. They saw the discrimination. They saw what was being done politically, socially, economically, and so on. It shocked the family. But it opened their eyes. They were the only farm in town that would hire a family in need. To me, that showed me what it was to be a human being. Not blue colar, white colar, black, white, asian, whatever. Just showing others compassion and justice in their small world while everything was crumbling down around them.

[Apocalipstic]

Congratulations on the promotion Medusa and on this very interesting thread.

I grew up in a weird situation in which my parents grew up poor due to the Depression but ended up being very well educated and in the clergy. My father had his PHD in Classical Greek and my mother was an English teacher and Principal until "God called them" to be Missionaries. As a missionary everything is paid for and in Argentina of the 60's and 70's US dollars went a long way. All types of church members entertained us from people with dirt floors to people with private helicopters and mansions. I feel pretty comfortable in any setting. My parents did not make much money, but everything including our schooling, insurance, home, car, utilities, vacation etc was paid for, so I grew up with zero idea of the value of money.

In college I worked and since school was paid for I always had money to blow. After college came the realization that I had no idea about money and my parents plan to marry me off to a preacher to take care of me was not gonna happen....and I majored in theater.

I ended up very poor, and in some terrible situations. (I also am quite creative with Ramen noodles!) I charged up cards and was a financial disaster. Since then, I have worked in Grocery stores, ski lifts, hotel management, kitchens, sports catering and now for a production company.

My G/F Cynthia's family has always had a good income. She was until recently a 3rd generation General Motors blue collar worker, making 3 times as much as I or my parents have ever made.

Now I have a good job and she is in school. I do have to have a stash of food and money and it makes me sick to my stomach to owe any money. All we owe is the house. We renovate little bits as we can pay cash. I will not finance anything but medical stuff. I have nightmares of collections people calling me if I owe anything.

I have no idea what class I am, nor do I really care. But it burns my ass up when people act better than others based on what they do for a living, or what class they are perceived to be. It makes me feel sick when I see it.

If someone cleans your House, it is because they are a cleaning professional and enjoy working alone, not because they are not as good as you are. *rant*

We have decided we like to travel rather than have a fancy big house, and live in Nashville because the cost of living is great.
Great great subject Medusa, I look forward to the discussion!

[Gayla]

This has always been a hard thing for me.

My family is very blue collar. My mother and I lived with my grandparents after she and my father divorced when I was very young. My mother worked at a bank. My grandfather was a finish carpenter and my grandmother was a seamstress, doing alterations at, what I always thought, was, a fancy clothing store in downtown Austin. My Grandma and my Mom made all my clothes and taught me to sew. Grandpa bought me honey buns off the roach coach and left them on the dashboard of his truck so they were warm and gooey when he brought them home for me after work. He taught me to fish out of stock tanks and how to correctly run a plane over a piece of wood. We lived in a rural area. Ate something from the garden for supper every night. I rode my bike through fields, down long country roads, played in the creek with my friends and had no idea that money was anything more then the quarter Grandpa would give me on the weekends so I could go across the street and get a Big Red soda water from the Creedmoor store. I also had no idea that everyone in the world didn't live this way because in my, very limited, world, they all did.

Then my mother remarried. The man that I refer to as my father, built houses for a living. We moved around quite a bit until he decided to go into business for himself. He was very good at it. We lived in an upper class area of a mid sized border town. My last name was plastered on billboards all over town. We had "live in help". My first car was a classic. We vacationed out of the country. We had a "cabin" in the mountains. I went to the right schools. Etc, etc, ect.

At the very core, I am privilege. It affects everything I say, think and do. I carry a huge amount of shame for having grown up with money because it's been often seen as "bad" in my community. I've had to fight my own -ism's and be even extra vigilant about how they influence the things I do.

I know that here, on the planet, there are threads I avoid and discussions I side step because I honestly don't know if I'm capable of participating without letting my privilege show. I'd like to think that the work I've done over the last 25+ years has left me in a position that I can but I think I will always question it and fight against it and will never truly know.

[Nat]

Class for me was always a mixed bag. We were poor, but my extended family wasn't. My dad was absent and there was no child support, and my mom was a secretary. My clothes, my shoes often had holes. My mom would bring me clothes her coworkers' kids had outgrown, we ate cheaply, blah blah blah. But I was surrounded by books and art and music. My grandparents paid for my cello lessons from the age of 6. They didn't want to help my mother too much because they "didn't want to discourage her from finding a husband."

I was expected to graduate from college. A bachelor's degree was the minimum requirement to be a legitimate member of the family - it seemed. But my family did not contribute by either offering to house me or help pay for my education. I lived off an older boyfriend and student loans before I finally dropped out and became a graveyard-shift security guard at the age of 19.

I enjoyed my job. I read many books I otherwise never would have read and have now almost entirely forgotten (like Anna Karenina). I wandered through large, empty buildings. I attended the firings of volatile employees. I woke up homeless drunk men every morning in the parking garage before my boss got to work. The amount of sexual harrassment I received and the amount of people who talked to me like I was a POS or who ignored me completely was a big shock to me at the time - it was so different than I was treated by teachers, peers and family members in my old life.

It was very interesting seeing how differently people treated me depending on my perceived class.

I married into a wealthy family, I finished my degree (I still took out loans - which I will be paying off forever, but no longer qualified for financially based grants due to my marriage). He always seemed to translate me to his family as though I was a little too alien for them. We bought houses. I got to spend a summer at Oxford. But on a weekend trip to London, two classmates and I went to our first lesbian bar - the Candy Bar. When I walked into that beautiful, loud, shining, packed place, it felt like home. By the next summer, I had left him.

And I began eeking out my little life. I have had better salaries and worse salaries during my adult life. I'm currently on the "worse" side of things, but hopefully not forever. I'm alright though. I'm so thankful to have a job. I'm so thankful to have my degree. I'll be paying it off forever. I have lots of feelings about class and money. I know I have privilege. I also know that I am not polished, and that I feel awkward and unkempt and a bit vulgar among people who are more well-heeled.

I don't fit distinctly into a single class and I never have.

[Boots13]

The U. S. Department of Labor describes the working poor as

“individuals who have spent at least twenty-seven weeks in the labor force, but whose income fell below the official poverty threshold.

According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the poverty threshold is $14,763 for a family of four.

So we are labeled and assigned a social class by our own government, no matter how fluid social class has become. I'm pushing 50 and cant remember a time (in my lifetime) the economy has been so unstable. All the biggies are affected..Tech, Pharm, Oil, Wall Street, Banking, Real Estate, Insurance...nothing seems stable.

Our economy is so unstable that my ideas of Social Class (re: money, assets, income, futures) are rapidly changing as well. Is the instability changing (or at least lending compassion) to our social structures? I hope so.
I don't know where I'm going with this, other than to reiterate that my perception of economic social class in North America is undergoing a huge shift. White Collar is no longer bastardizing our economy, that Blue Collar feels honest to me, and that the Working Poor with its broader base, is no longer thought of as a lazy population. Poverty and deficit has nested in places its never been in my lifetime (Wall Street, Real Estate, Tech, Oil) . Poverty and financial oblivion is a place that any of us are headed, at any time. And as our country continues to corkscrew itself further into economic distress I can tell you that the economic "markers" and expectations (old stereotypes) of social class seem to be changing.

[Melissa]

Originally Posted by Boots13

The U. S. Department of Labor describes the working poor as

“individuals who have spent at least twenty-seven weeks in the labor force, but whose income fell below the official poverty threshold.

According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the poverty threshold is $14,763 for a family of four.

So we are labeled and assigned a social class by our own government, no matter how fluid social class has become. I'm pushing 50 and cant remember a time (in my lifetime) the economy has been so unstable. All the biggies are affected..Tech, Pharm, Oil, Wall Street, Banking, Real Estate, Insurance...nothing seems stable.

Our economy is so unstable that my ideas of Social Class (re: money, assets, income, futures) are rapidly changing as well. Is the instability changing (or at least lending compassion) to our social structures? I hope so.
I don't know where I'm going with this, other than to reiterate that my perception of economic social class in North America is undergoing a huge shift. White Collar is no longer bastardizing our economy, that Blue Collar feels honest to me, and that the Working Poor with its broader base, is no longer thought of as a lazy population. Poverty and deficit has nested in places its never been in my lifetime (Wall Street, Real Estate, Tech, Oil) . Poverty and financial oblivion is a place that any of us are headed, at any time. And as our country continues to corkscrew itself further into economic distress I can tell you that the economic "markers" and expectations (old stereotypes) of social class seem to be changing.

It seems to me that the government is defining an economic threshold here, not a social class.

Melissa

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Melissa

It seems to me that the government is defining an economic threshold here, not a social class.

Melissa

How do you define Social Class?

It is very difficult to put a finger in it in the US.

[Melissa]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

How do you define Social Class?

It is very difficult to put a finger in it in the US.

Well, social class, I default back to English definitions which aren't related to income. Plus the English class system has no meaning or equivalent in the US. This is why many people emigrated here, to free themselves from a rigid class system.

For me, in the US, there are no social classes, just income brackets. An individual can move through various income brackets in the course of his or her lifetime. I think people in the US make assumptions and create stereotypes about other people based on what they perceive they own or earn. In England I'm working class because that was the class I was born into. In the US I think I am considered middle class because of my income bracket and education level. I default back to working class because I don't know of any other way to think of myself. However, I guess people would look at me strangely in the US because by US definitions I am middle class. But since I work 60+hours a week I call that "working" class lol. But I do get confused when I see people saying they hate it when the middle classes approripate the identity of the working class. I can't wrap my brain around this statement. What does that mean? I think I am coming at this thread from a totally different angle so I am just going to keep reading.



Melissa

[Waldo]

While I agree that talking about how much money one has, spends or earns is often tacky - particularly so outside of one's closest friends. I also think that this "we mustn't discuss" attitude is part of the problem that lead to this most recent financial downturn.

Our inability to say "I don't have the money to do X" is often fueled by a misunderstanding about what other people really have.

My experience of those who have money is spot on with the adage that they rarely talk about it. Due to the industry I work in I would venture to say that I am on a first name basis with more millionaires than the average person and with most of them you would never know it. Not just because they don't talk about it, but they don't spend like it. They don't drive the latest cars, wear the flashiest clothes, take the most expensive trips.

Their wealth will likely last their lifetime and they'll have a nice large estate to pass down to their heirs.

I also know a good number of very rich folks who will likely wind up with nothing in relatively short order because of bad decisions and a lack of restraint. They DO drive the latest, and often multiple, cars. They wear designer clothing and exensive jewelry and they travel first class all the time. They consume constantly.

How interesting a world it would be if one's salary and net worth were publicly available. I wonder if that would change how we view money, things, wealth. Just a thought.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Melissa

Well, social class, I default back to English definitions which aren't related to income. Plus the English class system has no meaning or equivalent in the US. This is why many people emigrated here, to free themselves from a rigid class system.

For me, in the US, there are no social classes, just income brackets. An individual can move through various income brackets in the course of his or her lifetime. I think people in the US make assumptions and create stereotypes about other people based on what they perceive they own or earn. In England I'm working class because that was the class I was born into. In the US I think I am considered middle class because of my income bracket and education level. I default back to working class because I don't know of any other way to think of myself. However, I guess people would look at me strangely in the US because by US definitions I am middle class. But since I work 60+hours a week I call that "working" class lol. But I do get confused when I see people saying they hate it when the middle classes approripate the identity of the working class. I can't wrap my brain around this statement. What does that mean? I think I am coming at this thread from a totally different angle so I am just going to keep reading.



Melissa

Makes sense

I think in the US they wanted to be different from England in the beginning and not have the whole "Nobility" thing. So class is more based on money, education and what one does for a living, than on one's ancestral heritage. The US wanted to be a nation where anyone could make it rich and be "accepted" and a part of the "Upper Class".

I agree that it is very confusing and the more I read and study about it, the more I do not get where the lines are.

I do think it is insane that the poverty line in the US is less than $15,000 for a family of 4. I think one person would have severe difficulty with that amount, let alone four.

[Boots13]

Originally Posted by Melissa

It seems to me that the government is defining an economic threshold here, not a social class.

Melissa

Hi Melissa - sorry I missed your response to my reply. I agree partly with you, in that the Government is defining an economic threshold...but I feel that with that definition comes a determination of class. And in this case, economic class.

But what rips me about our government are the inequalities that come with that determination (or threshold). Even though class is a fluid hierarchy in our society, it is full of inequalities, inconsistencies and contradictions (taxing middle America vs tax loops for big business, big money, old money, etc)

I think North America's class distinctions are complicated because they are fluid (we are not born and forever labeled by a Caste system) but still come with a stigma that my be detrimental to those being labeled. I have that bias as evidenced in my prior post (middle class is hard working, upper class are crooks..etc).

just my opinion on a touchy and complicated subject.

[Martina]

Class is very real. It's not just in our heads. It's who you know, who your parents know. It's the assumptions and categories you were taught as a child. There are things they know exist in the world for them, realities they accept as stable, that i have a hard time even believing in.

There are some things they don't have that my African American friend from Flint, Michigan has. My friend's family never ever disowns or cuts out a family member. They may be in jail. They may be queer (which is not approved of), but they are always welcome home. Their behavior is less important than the fact that they are family. They do not have to prove anything to anyone to be accepted. i have not found that to be true sometimes for people raised in the upper middle classes.

We enact class all the time. It's impossible to think outside of class without doing lots and lots of work. And we injure ourselves and others with assumptions and fears about class. Not necessarily brutally. i know lots of proud working class people. i think that if people are not desperately poor and they fit in with the people around them, they are as likely to be happy as anyone else.

Class does not determine happiness or satisfaction with life. But it is ever-present. It is relentless. Much harder to see outside of than racism, sexism, and homophobia -- although those are tough.

Class is determinative in ways that people constantly underestimate. Two and three generations in the upper middle class does not really turn you into a member of the upper middle class. It takes a long time to learn and unlearn the way of looking at the world that your social class created in you.

My parents came from world that distrusted outsiders. Outsiders were likely to despise you. We were vigilant about that in ways that have much more to do with living in poverty among a less respected class of people than any reality i lived on a daily basis. In fact, i was very privileged in my home town. i lived in a small house in the nicest suburb. i had educated parents doing a job that gave them some recognition -- for a while my dad was the high school basketball coach -- the town's only high school. i was an only child and felt pretty safe. i wandered around the neighborhood and the woods freely (it was the sixties). i had a good good life.

But i have had to tame that reaction to other people "mugging" me that causes my inner city students to get in fights with one another all the time. i have a lot of those same assumptions in my bones -- about the world looking down on me and mine.

i know that my friend whose parents worked their way up to great security and wealth from relatively lower middle class roots -- that their family is riddled with anxiety about losing it all. The people she went to college with -- at an elite college -- were not raised that way.

Class is, IMO, the primary prism through which we see the world.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Martina

Class is determinative in ways that people constantly underestimate. Two and three generations in the upper middle class does not really turn you into a member of the upper middle class. It takes a long time to learn and unlearn the way of looking at the world that your social class created in you.


This so powerfully part of my experience and so much a part of the lens I look through. I sometimes have a good chuckle with the theory of upward mobility.

Often, I think of sayings like ... you can take the girl out of the country, but you can't take the country out of the girl....

Or, you can give the working-poor class immigrant garbage man's daughter an education and upward social mobility, but can't take the immigrant garbage man's working-poor class out of the daughter. I don't know if this always serves me well. I do know, I am stuck with it. Yet, there is more for my family generations to work through.


Class is, IMO, the primary prism through which we see the world.

Yup, the primary prism.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Martina

Class is very real. It's not just in our heads. It's who you know, who your parents know. It's the assumptions and categories you were taught as a child. There are things they know exist in the world for them, realities they accept as stable, that i have a hard time even believing in.

There are some things they don't have that my African American friend from Flint, Michigan has. My friend's family never ever disowns or cuts out a family member. They may be in jail. They may be queer (which is not approved of), but they are always welcome home. Their behavior is less important than the fact that they are family. They do not have to prove anything to anyone to be accepted. i have not found that to be true sometimes for people raised in the upper middle classes.

We enact class all the time. It's impossible to think outside of class without doing lots and lots of work. And we injure ourselves and others with assumptions and fears about class. Not necessarily brutally. i know lots of proud working class people. i think that if people are not desperately poor and they fit in with the people around them, they are as likely to be happy as anyone else.

Class does not determine happiness or satisfaction with life. But it is ever-present. It is relentless. Much harder to see outside of than racism, sexism, and homophobia -- although those are tough.

Class is determinative in ways that people constantly underestimate. Two and three generations in the upper middle class does not really turn you into a member of the upper middle class. It takes a long time to learn and unlearn the way of looking at the world that your social class created in you.

My parents came from world that distrusted outsiders. Outsiders were likely to despise you. We were vigilant about that in ways that have much more to do with living in poverty among a less respected class of people than any reality i lived on a daily basis. In fact, i was very privileged in my home town. i lived in a small house in the nicest suburb. i had educated parents doing a job that gave them some recognition -- for a while my dad was the high school basketball coach -- the town's only high school. i was an only child and felt pretty safe. i wandered around the neighborhood and the woods freely (it was the sixties). i had a good good life.

But i have had to tame that reaction to other people "mugging" me that causes my inner city students to get in fights with one another all the time. i have a lot of those same assumptions in my bones -- about the world looking down on me and mine.

i know that my friend whose parents worked their way up to great security and wealth from relatively lower middle class roots -- that their family is riddled with anxiety about losing it all. The people she went to college with -- at an elite college -- were not raised that way.

Class is, IMO, the primary prism through which we see the world.

As much as I might wish that what you say isn't true...I am inclined to agree with you.

I grew up somewhere below working class. We were that "deserving poor" family that was the recipient of the basket of food from the PTA ladies at Thanksgiving. Yes, my mother worked but haphazardly...because she was more focused on other enterprises that were important to her, but that left us unsupervised and dependent on the salvation army for clothes and the kindness of the parents of friends for normal "kid things" like trips to the movies or other outings.

I lived most of my childhood in a one-bedroom apartment...we lived 6 months without any living room furniture (until we found a rather startling orange couch at the curb one evening)...we were evicted a few times. We didn't own a TV. I never owned new clothes until I could buy them myself. My mother was also "too proud" (her words) to accept the "charity" of food stamps or welfare...so we just did without. Friends whose mothers collected welfare lived much better than we did. I don't say this as a "pity me"...just to illustrate the root of my perspective.

What I did learn, very young, was to work. To work hard, and to work long hours. I got my first babysitting jobs at age 10, my first "real" job at 15. I had a full time job by the time I was 16...and have worked ever since. I have always supported myself (and then my son), without assistance...even from husbands.

I also figured out that education was the only pathway that I could see out of poverty. I worked full time and went to college... getting a BA. That helped. I kept working. Other stuff intervened...and it was 20 years before I could go back to school for my masters. I got my MBA and things changed again, for the better.

I am now a little cog in a medium-sized corporate wheel and I love it. I like my work. I like the appreciation of my boss. I like my teammates. I love that I work from home.

But...here's the deal. I may have advanced degrees and all of the technical credentials for the job, but I will still never be senior mangement. I don't come from the same place those folks come from. I don't see the world the same way. I don't know the things and the people they do. They appreciate my creativity and my work...but they know I am not one of them, just as I know it.

Technically, I am middle class. My income puts me in that quartile. I have a college education. I live in a relatively affluent suburb in a top-rated school district. I drive a newer car. We go on a vacation every year.

I don't feel middle class though. I feel like a poor person with some money.

I tried to find the post and couldn't....but someone posted here about their food issues. Empty cupboards or a bare refrigerator will send me into an emotional tail spin. I will and can budget anywhere...except at the grocery store. I buy the expensive stuff there....fresh berries, dry-aged beef, the really good olive oil. These are the things that hold my old poverty mentality at bay. Doesn't make sense...but it's what's real for me.

The primary difference that I see is that the people I know who grew up middle or upper class appear to feel secure in their place in the world. They, at least appear, to have the sense that things will always be okay. If things go wrong for them, they have backup in family. It's not entitlement exactly....but just a feeling of mastery or rightness. Not sure if I'm putting that well...

What I feel is nothing like that. It comes from having lived on the edge for my entire youth...and of having only myself to depend on ever since. I feel like my survival (and my son's) is dependent on my education, my work, my vigilance. If I falter, we are screwed. I trust my own ability to survive almost anything (short of nuclear war) because I know how to work, how to get along, and how to make a living no matter what comes. That's a weird kind of security of its own....but it's different from the security that comes from growing up with enough.

[SassyLeo]

I'm white. My mother's parents came here from Turkey where they were very poor. My dad's grandparents had come from Ireland, and had lots of money until the depression hit.

When I was small, my mom didn’t work and stayed home with me until I was in 2nd or 3rd grade. She made my clothes until I started grammar school. We took the bus everywhere since she didn’t drive, plus we only had one car. My dad worked sometimes 2 jobs plus he became an expert “dumpster diver” and on the weekends we would have yard sales or sell at the flea market.

Most of the kids at my grammar school were white, with a few Hispanic and Asian kids. It was a range of poor to lower middle class kids. I don’t remember many of the kids having name brand clothes or nice toys, etc.

Our house had bad mold issues and crappy carpet. We had used everything; furniture, clothing, house wares, etc. We shopped at the local co-op, using the same bags and containers over and over…my mom made everything from scratch. We didn’t have a TV for years and then when we did, we rarely watched it.

My dad eventually finished his degree and got a well paying job. Then my mom went back to work. We moved into a more affluent neighborhood and I started Middle School in an upper middle class area. I was now attending classes with kids who had gone to a rich grammar school.

So here is where it got tricky for me. We now have 2 incomes and my dad was making good money…suddenly I am going from wearing 2nd hand and clothes from Kmart type places to Macy’s. I went to Summer Camp. I got a stereo for my birthday. We took a trip to the east coast.

Then my parents split and my mom and I moved to a duplex and attempted to pare down, but we had now grown accustomed to a “nicer” lifestyle. And slowly but surely she ended up in big debt.

My dad went on to be fairly successful, working as an executive for "big oil" (and then saw the fucked up crap going on) He consulted and now he has a successful eBay business. He’s been smart with investments and such, but he and his partner also like to travel and own some nicer things. However they are also very frugal. My dad constantly says “we are on a budget” “we need to be cost conscious” “no trips for us” even though they do take trips and never live hand to mouth…it’s so different than how I lived as a child.

When I left CA, I left a well paying job where I was responsible for $1M annual revenues. I was successful (trips, nice dinners, clothes, etc) but stressed out all the time. I moved to Portland to change and grow. I purposely did not take 2 job offers in my industry because I needed change. So for a few months I didn’t work and I started freaking out about money...so I took a temp job and it quickly turned into an opportunity for regular employment. However, it pays less and has less of a “title” than I was used to having. I used to be a Branch Manager for a huge staffing corporation with an Admin and now I am an Executive Admin. I know I made this choice on purpose, but I still struggle with my own internal crap about what I should be doing and making, etc.

I make enough to live on with a bit leftover that I put in savings, but not enough to take nice trips or buy “nicer” things…and don’t get me wrong, I am so grateful to be employed with a great company in this economy…but I still get stuck on the “I should be doing and making more” I still shop 2nd hand, clip coupons, shop sales, etc.

I feel like my relationship with class/jobs/money has been a roller coaster ...and my thoughts are ALL over the place, clearly.

I don’t feel like I had privilege until I was in Middle School, but others might say because I didn’t like on powdered milk, that I had it all my life. Can privilege be subjective?