Ask a trans person!

[theoddz]

Originally Posted by June

Congratulations on the BC!

This has come up for me personally out of the numerous conversations around privilege and identifying misogyny and misandry as well as sexism and Transphobia. I realized that I was not seeing some things in the same ways, so I am being introspective and dragging you all along for the ride. It seems like for me, as a Femme that there is inclusivity and we are welcoming, but that's my lens, and clearly there is something going on. I don't know if it's just a "People" thing, how we relate to one another, or if it is something more widespread and deep. Like, if someone posts something ass-hatish, is that systemic, or just an individual not being very highly evolved (Not Transfolk, but all of us).

YES Linus!!! I'm echoing June'y here and want to congratulate you on this milestone!!! Here Here!!!

I finally received my corrected BC from the State of Florida a couple of weeks ago, and I finally feel that it is mine (does that make sense??). I never before felt that my birth certificate was ever really mine before now, but it sure feels that way now. Both the name and gender marker was changed and with less fuss and muss than I had anticipated, given that we're talking about Florida here.

Now, to address June's comments/questions, I, personally, haven't really experienced any real negativity or "rejection", as it were, from the community at large here. I do feel welcomed here, though my filter is probably different from the other guys'. In fact, I feel more welcomed here than I felt at the other site because Jack and Dusa have made it a very strong and outward point that we do have an accepting community here, and we do have a place at this table. From the time this site was opened, that point was made crystal clear.

Now, that said, there are always going to be certain people who are just not going to accept trans folk, no matter what we do, or how hard we try to open their minds. That's okay. Mother taught me at a very young age that "you're not going to always like everyone, and everyone is not always going to like you". I've never thought that you (the generic "you") could legislate or change people's feelings if they didn't want to be changed, and you certainly can't be held responsible for everyone's feelings. Oh, I've witnessed the rows here as certain members have pounded their fists, called out certain obnoxious behaviors and demanded respect, while others just refused to give, and/or became defensive, then turned to attack. I think that's where the "drama spew" that Koop is referring to comes in. Those are the threads I tend to stay out of, unless I just can't help myself and want to drop a comment or two and dash out. Ultimately, I do tend to avoid the hot 'n nasty volatile threads for that reason. Life's too short, yanno, to spend energy trying to "educate" people who, for one reason or another, just won't get it. You can always tell the ones who are trying to understand a concept, versus those who are just trying to be "shit disturbers".

I take people one at a time, based on the individual and the behaviors. I think that, despite some of the nasty mean stuff I've seen, and the "heated" discussions, that this community is a good and welcoming place for me. It's been suggested, by some I hold very dear, that I need to "talk more" here. Thing is, I'm a quirky, strange and extremely introverted fellow and I like to hear/read the opinions of other people. That's how I learn....from listening. I found a great deal of support and encouragement here from other members and they probably don't even realize that they might have posted something here that may have been the only smile I got all day.

There have been things posted, here and there, that have been unkind, phobic or some other class of "ism", but we're all individuals, and you just simply cannot pick up and run with every.single.thing. that offends you, either in real time or online. That's life, and a lot of times, the difference in having a peaceful and respectful coexistence with other people and having a life full of hate, venom and negativity. It really is what you make of it.

Thank you, June'y, for your interest in this, and for all of your hard work to make this site a welcoming and accepting place for all of the plethora of varied personalities. I certainly feel welcomed here.

~Theo~

[Jet]

Originally Posted by June

Jet, I was thinking about this, and I know from a lot of your posts that you say "I'll never find someone" or "I don't have any expectations", but I think that because you do keep showing up and interacting, even if it's limited, you must be looking for some kind of connection to community, and I'm glad. You may not use this site like others do, but there must be something otherwise, you could go to an art site, kind of like I could go to a Shih Tzu site, you know?

Hang in there

It's an outlet for the art. And you're right, I don't have any expectations.

[little man]

Originally Posted by June

Hi, I have a question for the Trans folks in our community.

Knowing that there are a lot of acceptance issues for everyone involved, do you think it is more difficult to be accepted or welcomed into the on and off line BF communities as a FTM or MTF?

i think it likely depends on where you're at and who you're with. this site, in particular, has been extremely welcoming to all from the get go. i think for folks like thinker, koop, theo and myself...we were readily accepted here because of relationship and history nurtured on the dash. with that groundwork laid, i think it's likely more welcoming to new guys here. i suspect the same is true for MtF folks who have migrated here. (i can't really speak to it with any authority, though).

so far as r/t communities go...well, i'm not all that socially adept (as you know, june). like theo, i'm fairly introverted and don't really do groups well. i've lived in different parts of the country and have noticed some places are more open/accepting of B-F dynamics than others. being back in the midwest, i do recall feeling like a bit of a pariah for being "so butch" prior to transition. people who knew me didn't care so much about that and just took it as a part of who i was. i haven't really run into many folks i've known here since transitioning. the few i have seen have been very welcoming and accepting (read as not surprised). i haven't really been out to any queer social space since coming back here. i'm not sure how i'd be taken there. the way i've seen MtFs treated in r/t in this area has been 'tolerated'. i think it also comes down to knowing that person as an individual.

so far as disparity between levels of acceptance between MtF and Ftm? i suspect we guys have an easier time of it in general. i think that's based on appearance and ability to blend in rather than stand out. i suspect that MtFs who don't pass easily or well fall into the drag queen category for many folks. i stand by previous statements about people being lazy and not looking to expand their understanding of anything or anyone outside their little worlds.

how to remedy this? awareness, of course. but, how do you make people interested enough in things outside their realm of experience to effect change? (speaking to r/t rather than this site.



Where do you see the differences/disparities occurring? Why do you think that is? How can we help make that better?

Thank you, and feel free to ask me for clarification.

June

is this helpful at all? or did i just sidestep your whole point? i do ramble....

[little man]

Originally Posted by theoddz

There have been things posted, here and there, that have been unkind, phobic or some other class of "ism", but we're all individuals, and you just simply cannot pick up and run with every.single.thing. that offends you, either in real time or online. That's life, and a lot of times, the difference in having a peaceful and respectful coexistence with other people and having a life full of hate, venom and negativity. It really is what you make of it.



~Theo~

theo, i wanted to snip this part of your post and just say thank you. i've not been able to articulate this exact thought process to save my life.

i, too, would like to see you post more here (or anywhere). you are thoughtful and articulate and manage to say what i think/feel ... and do so more eloquently than i could. no pressure, though...seeing a post from you is always a treat.

[atomiczombie]

June, as I think about this more, I am feeling somewhat weird about this discussion because Dylan isn't here participating. He is the most vocal person on the site who calls attention to transphobia. Of course this is an issue about all of us and not just about Dylan. The fact remains, his voice is absent and I feel that absence.

I saw what happened in the misogyny thread and some nasty things were said by many people. When AJ and Dylan expressed different points of view on a particular issue regarding transphobia, several people jumped in and decided to take that opportunity to jump on Dylan. Dylan did what he often does, which is strongly defend himself and attack back. I saw people complain that it had become the Dylan thread, which I think is bullshit because if certain people hadn't jumped all over him it wouldn't be. And what bothered me even more, June, was that you said that every thread where Dylan participates becomes the Dylan thread. That was really messed up because it was a personal dig at him and not speaking to the issues.

Yes, it was in the red zone so it's not moderated. That doesn't mean that it's ok to treat a member like that, no matter how you perceive that person as treating you. The way that whole thing went down seemed really unfair and I don't blame anyone who saw transphobia going on there. There were a lot of elements to what was going on, but dumping on the guy who is the most vocal about calling out transphobia, whether you agree with him or not, has an impact, on me as a transguy that feels icky. I say feels and not felt because I still feel icky about it. And now he isn't here at the moment, and I suspect that the whole episode in that thread has a lot to do with that. So June, I think your participation in the Dylan bashing, as not only a member but also a moderator (and I know you weren't moderating him or anyone in that post, just speaking as a member) just adds to the stink of it all.

I applaud you for coming in here and taking the time to ask questions and listen to us, and to try to learn from us. I just need to say that what I saw happen with Dylan doesn't leave me with warm fuzzy feelings about how transguys are treated here. For god's sake, he was calling out transphobia, and he got reamed for it by a handful of members, and then you made your comment. Can you see how that comes across?

[Jet]

(Above)
Precisely why I don't partake in many threads and why I don't feel that "sense of community." I don't like many topics or the way people treat each other.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

June, as I think about this more, I am feeling somewhat weird about this discussion because Dylan isn't here participating. He is the most vocal person on the site who calls attention to transphobia. Of course this is an issue about all of us and not just about Dylan. The fact remains, his voice is absent and I feel that absence.

I saw what happened in the misogyny thread and some nasty things were said by many people. When AJ and Dylan expressed different points of view on a particular issue regarding transphobia, several people jumped in and decided to take that opportunity to jump on Dylan. Dylan did what he often does, which is strongly defend himself and attack back. I saw people complain that it had become the Dylan thread, which I think is bullshit because if certain people hadn't jumped all over him it wouldn't be. And what bothered me even more, June, was that you said that every thread where Dylan participates becomes the Dylan thread. That was really messed up because it was a personal dig at him and not speaking to the issues.

So June,Yes, it was in the red zone so it's not moderated. That doesn't mean that it's ok to treat a member like that, no matter how you perceive that person as treating you. The way that whole thing went down seemed really unfair and I don't blame anyone who saw transphobia going on there. There were a lot of elements to what was going on, but dumping on the guy who is the most vocal about calling out transphobia, whether you agree with him or not, has an impact, on me as a transguy that feels icky. I say feels and not felt because I still feel icky about it. And now he isn't here at the moment, and I suspect that the whole episode in that thread has a lot to do with that. I think your participation in the Dylan bashing, as not only a member but also a moderator (and I know you weren't moderating him or anyone in that post, just speaking as a member) just adds to the stink of it all.

I applaud you for coming in here and taking the time to ask questions and listen to us, and to try to learn from us. I just need to say that what I saw happen with Dylan doesn't leave me with warm fuzzy feelings about how transguys are treated here. For god's sake, he was calling out transphobia, and he got reamed for it by a handful of members, and then you made your comment. Can you see how that comes across?

Because I have avoided posting for a while, I have forgotten how to "snip", however, the aspect of this post I would like to comment on was the "reason" I saw that Dylan was used as an example of sexism on a thread regarding sexism.

I believe it was BonneMaman who pointed out that the thread had veered off course from "sexism and misogyny" to "transphobia" and that she questioned why a male voice had taken over the conversation. That was what I got out of the post that was made that seemed to be the jumping point for what I think AZ sees as bashing Dylan. I don't always agree with Dylan, but I do try to hear him in his battle for trans rights and equality and/or just assisting folks see their own "isms".

Understand please, that at least for me, a discussion regarding sexism ( against women) is not at all the place for a man/male to come in and re-direct. It is seen as just more sexism. Does that make sense?

I have so many questions of a very personal nature that fall right into place with this current conversation, yet like Jet, it feels like sometimes if you have any thoughts/ questions other than those that flow along with the vocal majority , it is wrong to do so. I am trying to learn a new way of asking questions and it is very new and uncomfortable for me to do so. I am grateful to have found the patience and willingness to put myself out there again in order to perhaps gain more patience and tolerance and further understanding.

Frankly, I have not seen this site/ community being unwelcoming to transfolk. I believe very strongly that not unlike the brilliant article Linus posted recently, we all come here with our own set ideas and even when faced with new "facts" we are ( or can be) reluctant to change. It doesn't help when questions ( even asked out of confusion/ frustration) are met with accusations of an "ism". That just doesn't help. It may be "true" or informative, but it does nothing for community building.

I am no longer sure how to ask questions without the risk of being taken wrong when I ask "why do_____" . I appreciate the very frank discussion I see going on here and would like to continue reading as like any other topic I get more out of many voices as opposed to a singular chorus singing the same tune.
Thank you all.
Jess

[Gentle Tiger]

I have been thinking about June's question and of course I don't have a hard and fast answer. I have to say that I think offline it is harder for my sisters (MTF) because their physical transition is harder, especially if they choose not to take or cannot afford hormonal therapy and surgery. I get flack from fellow transmen when I say this but our sisters cannot hide their height, hands, etc. And I watch how they are treated both within and outside of the lbtq (and the rest of the letters yet to come) community. And it irritates me.

That is not to say that guys don't have their share of challenges. I just love it when I am referred to as male because they know that is my preference only to discover that they really still see me as she because I wasn't born male or because I made the decision not to have lower surgery or because my voice isn't as deep as other guys, etc. etc. And I love it when I get into conversations where (for those who choose to be real and honest) say that it's like we (FTMs) have betrayed women by "choosing to become men".

As for online, I think in a setting where the sign on the site or thread door is clearly marked I think it can be challenging for both MTF and FTM at times. We make a choice coming into a butch femme forum if that is not how we identify. And if we make that choice we have to put on our big boy and big girl pants and accept the fact that not everyone is going to want to play with us. To me that's when we simply find folks who enjoy playing with us or create our own sandbox to play in and press on!

But I do get annoyed when a thread opens that is for say femmes, and an MTF participates. And folks have issues because she participates because they see her responding not as their fellow sister who identifies as femme but as an other or as an intruder. I have seen and heard this. They don't understand why a person born male would transition (however they choose) to female "only to be with a woman". And rather than educate themselves, ask questions in the appropriate setting and respectfully, they make the decision she does not belong. And the responses are clearly express their feelings on the subject.

But I also get annoyed with my brothers who identify as male, and even straight male who insist on being in a say "For Women Only" space. If the sign clearly says "Girls only - No Boys/Men Allowed" then we need to respect their wishes and keep our happy selves out of their space. This site was not presented to me as woman only space. Therefore, I look around and find or create a sandbox to play in or tree to sit under. If it were a "whatever only" space and I am not that, you will not see me. Why? I respect the sign. So there are certain threads that I don't post in. If the thread is for hearing from Femmes on a subject, you won't see me posting. I am not a femme so my voice does not need to be heard there. I'm not going to rant about not being welcome. I will be a mature human being, remember it's not all about me and go post in the Questions thread or something. I know I'm welcome based on the description of the site. Anyone having problems with my being here can just go sit down somewhere and take a nap! Same with a thread calling for say those who are white to post. I am not white. So, guess what! I will not be posting. But if the thread is for anyone, I or my sister should be able to post without dealing with someone's ignorance.

But I go back to a point I made earlier. We know we're going to have to deal with ignorance because that is life! This site is no different. So you teach where you can, and you shake the dust off your feet and keep moving when they are not receptive or when you quite frankly just don't feel like being the teacher that day.

I think this a long enough essay for June. *smirk*

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by Jess

Because I have avoided posting for a while, I have forgotten how to "snip", however, the aspect of this post I would like to comment on was the "reason" I saw that Dylan was used as an example of sexism on a thread regarding sexism.

I believe it was BonneMaman who pointed out that the thread had veered off course from "sexism and misogyny" to "transphobia" and that she questioned why a male voice had taken over the conversation. That was what I got out of the post that was made that seemed to be the jumping point for what I think AZ sees as bashing Dylan. I don't always agree with Dylan, but I do try to hear him in his battle for trans rights and equality and/or just assisting folks see their own "isms".

Understand please, that at least for me, a discussion regarding sexism ( against women) is not at all the place for a man/male to come in and re-direct. It is seen as just more sexism. Does that make sense?

It does make sense. But I think there are 2 ways of looking at it. Dylan saw someone post something that appeared to him to be transphobic. He went into that thread to point that out. Some people saw his pointing that out as him being sexist. He defended himself. And we know what transpired after that. It is a difficult thing for a transguy like me to figure out; should I respect the OP and only address the main topic? What do I do when I see someone say something in a thread about misogyny that appears to me to be transphobic? Do I have to just say nothing for fear that my saying something might be read as "re-directing" or taking over the thread? My point here is that some times there is a no-win situation.

And by the way, you said for a "man/male to come in and re-direct". I hope you know that Linus started that thread, and that men were welcome to post there too.

A few months ago there was a thread all about femmes for femmes. I never posted there because it was expressly for femmes only. I had at the time and still have no issue with that. What made me uneasy was when I read some posts that appeared (and I always say appeared because I allow for the possibility that what I perceive may be wrong) to me to be a bit over-generalizing about masculine people acting in very sexist and disgusting ways. I read these posts and thought, hey, not all guys are like that! I am not like that! It seemed very unfair how we were being characterized as all under the same tent. Instead of posting in the thread I just sat on my feelings and felt icky. I stopped reading it and kind of disappeared from the site for a while because my anxiety was getting worse again. My point in sharing this experience is that I don't blame Dylan for going into the misogyny thread and saying something when he saw something that seemed unfair to him. Was he trying to take over the thread and re-direct it? I didn't see that as his intent. I can see how some others might see it that way, but there's at least 2 sides to everything. I just don't see that it's all so cut and dried.

My only point in bringing up what happened to Dylan is that for me, as a fellow transguy, it does make an impression on me about some of the people on this site. It does in no way change my perception of Jack and Dusa. I still feel welcome by them and that does give me that warm fuzzy feeling.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

It does make sense. But I think there are 2 ways of looking at it. Dylan saw someone post something that appeared to him to be transphobic. He went into that thread to point that out. Some people saw his pointing that out as him being sexist. He defended himself. And we know what transpired after that. It is a difficult thing for a transguy like me to figure out; should I respect the OP and only address the main topic? What do I do when I see someone say something in a thread about misogyny that appears to me to be transphobic? Do I have to just say nothing for fear that my saying something might be read as "re-directing" or taking over the thread? My point here is that some times there is a no-win situation.

And by the way, you said for a "man/male to come in and re-direct". I hope you know that Linus started that thread, and that men were welcome to post there too.

A few months ago there was a thread all about femmes for femmes. I never posted there because it was expressly for femmes only. I had at the time and still have no issue with that. What made me uneasy was when I read some posts that appeared (and I always say appeared because I allow for the possibility that what I perceive may be wrong) to me to be a bit over-generalizing about masculine people acting in very sexist and disgusting ways. I read these posts and thought, hey, not all guys are like that! I am not like that! It seemed very unfair how we were being characterized as all under the same tent. Instead of posting in the thread I just sat on my feelings and felt icky. I stopped reading it and kind of disappeared from the site for a while because my anxiety was getting worse again. My point in sharing this experience is that I don't blame Dylan for going into the misogyny thread and saying something when he saw something that seemed unfair to him. Was he trying to take over the thread and re-direct it? I didn't see that as his intent. I can see how some others might see it that way, but there's at least 2 sides to everything. I just don't see that it's all so cut and dried.

My only point in bringing up what happened to Dylan is that for me, as a fellow transguy, it does make an impression on me about some of the people on this site. It does in no way change my perception of Jack and Dusa. I still feel welcome by them and that does give me that warm fuzzy feeling.

AZ, I do get what you are saying about not knowing whether or not to go in and say something in a thread if you see an active "ism" happening. I really do, because I get the same "icky" feelings when I see certain things also.

While trying not to use Dylan as a specific example, I have seen quite a few folks get "bashed" or as some folks have called it "dog piled" for expressing feelings other than what were of the general tone of those conversations. I think it is really important for me to try to exercise an old cliche' of "principles over personalities" in these situations. Meaning, I ( for example in That conversation in That thread) cannot assume that Dylan was being the spokesperson for every transman or male on this site and cannot base my opinion of the trans experience or lens that transfolk view the world through based upon the statements or actions of ONE person. No more than I can see one person being the spokesperson for lesbians, people of color, differently abled, etc. Does that make sense? I personally have to remember to look at the topic and not at the person(s) posting.

I think what I need to do when I see something icky happening is to assess exactly what it is that is icky about it and perhaps try to address THAT instead of necessarily addressing the person who made the statement. By that, I mean not to engage in the back and forth bantering that has a tendency to end up being name calling and very hurt feelings and usually someone getting banned/ timed out or left feeling ostracized.

Like you , when I see a thread that is "for____ only", I have to figure out if I do have a place in that convo and will engage or not based on that. It is my choice to read it and sit on my feelings or read it and perhaps discuss those feelings with someone if they are really bugging me. I do not feel like I need to monitor those threads for something they "might" say that is anti-"me". That said, I do realize that the sexism/misogyny thread was open to all, as was/is the sexism/misandry thread. I think they are very important conversations to have with everyone because like so many have pointed out, all too often the sexism is often so entrenched in us that it becomes invisible ( unless it isn't there).

I think THIS conversation, that June started is important for everyone to be able to read also, because of the very open nature of responses happening. It really helps me understand the very different and intimate places that transmen are coming from in viewing their particular place in this community. Which to date ( I hate admitting this) has been something I have struggled understanding. I think it is just as important for someone like me who sometimes "gets it" and sometimes doesn't, to be able to ask questions and listen and take part without the fear of being judged or attacked, because frankly, there are quite a few folks like me who need this very type of engagement.

I appreciate your responding in the way you did, by giving examples of your feelings and checking to see if I am indeed hearing you. I hope that I am likewise showing that yes, I do hear you. Your response wasn't snarky or defensive and I really do appreciate that you took the time to read and hear me.

Will return to listening.
Thanks, Jess

[Jet]

I don;t know why it is so hard for people to wrap their minds around transgender. It's very simple: I'm male and in the wrong body. I hate being in the wrong body. That's all. There's really nothing else to get in my book.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by Jet

I don;t know why it is so hard for people to wrap their minds around transgender. It's very simple: I'm male and in the wrong body. I hate being in the wrong body. That's all. There's really nothing else to get in my book.

I think it is difficult for some, because they have always been comfortable in the bodies they were born with.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Jet

I don;t know why it is so hard for people to wrap their minds around transgender. It's very simple: I'm male and in the wrong body. I hate being in the wrong body. That's all. There's really nothing else to get in my book.

There are still plenty of people who consider this kind of thinking indicative of mental illness. There is nothing in their experience that can help them relate to, or in anyway understand, the reality of our situation. Never has there been a day in which they hated their anatomy in the way that transgendered/sexed people might.

Most people are incapable of thinking outside their own experience, so I understand and accept that it's hard for them to "wrap their minds around" it. What I don't understand, and won't accept, is their intolerance and continued choice to remain ignorant.

I choose, also, to accept that the burden is on me to help them get past where they are in their thinking. That it is not helpful for me to show them anger, fear or their own hatred in return.

[Jet]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

There are still plenty of people who consider this kind of thinking indicative of mental illness. There is nothing in their experience that can help them relate to, or in anyway understand, the reality of our situation. Never has there been a day in which they hated their anatomy in the way that transgendered/sexed people might.

Most people are incapable of thinking outside their own experience, so I understand and accept that it's hard for them to "wrap their minds around" it. What I don't understand, and won't accept, is their intolerance and continued choice to remain ignorant.

I choose, also, to accept that the burden is on me to help them get past where they are in their thinking. That it is not helpful for me to show them anger, fear or their own hatred in return.

I don't need to help anybody understand anything. The last time I did that I ended up in a fist fight with a bio man. I'm done with others' intolerance and explaining and holding somebody's hand gently trying to "guide" them through reasoning that they'll NEVER get. And for the record, that SOB, my own family member who punched and slapped the hell out of me, can kiss my ass. This is what it has been like as transgendered. No one, and I mean no one, gets close to me.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Jet

I don't need to help anybody understand anything. The last time I did that I ended up in a fist fight with a bio man. I'm done with others' intolerance and explaining and holding somebody's hand gently trying to "guide" them through reasoning that they'll NEVER get. And for the record, that SOB, my own family member who punched and slapped the hell out of me, can kiss my ass. This is what it has been like as transgendered. No one, and I mean no one, gets close to me.

I'm not advocating trying to help by explaining, or hand holding. It's in the way I live my life. It's in the way I comport myself among my co-workers, my clients, my neighbors. I've survived and thrived this way in the most urban and most rural environments, and everything in between.

Being angry, resentful, closed off isn't a viable option for a healthy, balanced, full life for me. I don't try to explain myself to anyone, I feel no need for that. I am first and foremost a human and relate to others solely from that perspective. I know I am a fantastic and beautiful creature, others either see it or don't; I have no expectation of their "getting it," as much as I might wish to live in a world in which they would.

I believe that if you confront the world with anger, it will greet you in turn.

[Jet]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

I'm not advocating trying to help by explaining, or hand holding. It's in the way I live my life. It's in the way I comport myself among my co-workers, my clients, my neighbors. I've survived and thrived this way in the most urban and most rural environments, and everything in between.

Being angry, resentful, closed off isn't a viable option for a healthy, balanced, full life for me. I don't try to explain myself to anyone, I feel no need for that. I am first and foremost a human and relate to others solely from that perspective. I know I am a fantastic and beautiful creature, others either see it or don't; I have no expectation of their "getting it," as much as I might wish to live in a world in which they would.

I believe that if you confront the world with anger, it will greet you in turn.

Well....this is you. It's not me. Honestly, I don't even want to be here. I have to because I'm a Catholic.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Jet

Well....this is you. It's not me. Honestly, I don't even want to be here. I have to because I'm a Catholic.

I did a lot of work to get to this place, Jet. I'd be lying if I said I lived with no anger, or if I never had to turn to a friend or lover to help me remain on track.

I can't tell you how to live your life, I can only share what works for me, and hope that maybe somewhere in there you can find something that might serve you.

I understand feeling isolated, alone, misunderstood, unseen. I think most here do.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by June

I don't see transitioning as a betrayal. I will admit to being perplexed by it sometimes. When I came out, I knew about Transwomen, and that made sense to me -- "Who doesn't want to be a woman?" And I understood, as much as I was able to about feeling you didn't fit the body you were in and needing to change the exterior to match the interior. When I first became aware of Transmen, initially, that was harder because "I" didn't feel male at all. See, and this is how "I" and I suspect others feel because "We" don't feel male. But it is not about "Us", it is about "You". When I was finally able to ascribe the same internal logic I used for Transwomen, I was able to move forward a bit. One of the things I know is Transphobic behavior for me, is the worry and judgement I feel when I see so many people doing it. I worry that they haven't gotten the counseling or medical attention needed or that they may not be aware of the long term effects of Testosterone on their bodies. I know that it is not for me, June to worry about, my responsibility is to open my mind and heart to people, regardless of how they identify and let them worry about themselves and hope they have a good support system.

June, can I ask something: do you think your transphobia is based more in misandry than transphobia itself? It seems that you are ok with the path that MTFs take but uncomfortable with that of FTMs and it makes me wonder if it's a bit more of misandry than transphobia at work here.

I think it's hard to describe to someone what it's like to be transsexual. It would be like you describing to me what it's like to be whole with one's gender. It's a foreign concept, I believe, for many of us.

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

There are still plenty of people who consider this kind of thinking indicative of mental illness. There is nothing in their experience that can help them relate to, or in anyway understand, the reality of our situation. Never has there been a day in which they hated their anatomy in the way that transgendered/sexed people might.

Most people are incapable of thinking outside their own experience, so I understand and accept that it's hard for them to "wrap their minds around" it. What I don't understand, and won't accept, is their intolerance and continued choice to remain ignorant.

I choose, also, to accept that the burden is on me to help them get past where they are in their thinking. That it is not helpful for me to show them anger, fear or their own hatred in return.

Mister Bent, agreed. I think the biggest issue with those that think this is a mental illness is that they use it against us, denying us medical attention, help, rights, etc. I also agree on the concept of the burden to help someone address it is by showing understanding, compassion for others. The idea of "treat others as you want to be treated", even if they cannot do it. By responding to someone in anger, it does nothing, IMO, other than get them more angry and less likely to listen.


To those just reading: this thread is for trans individuals who need support but also for non-trans individuals who want to understand and learn. Many of us are willing to answer whatever questions are asked for those that want to understand or be educated.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by Jet

I don't need to help anybody understand anything. The last time I did that I ended up in a fist fight with a bio man. I'm done with others' intolerance and explaining and holding somebody's hand gently trying to "guide" them through reasoning that they'll NEVER get. And for the record, that SOB, my own family member who punched and slapped the hell out of me, can kiss my ass. This is what it has been like as transgendered. No one, and I mean no one, gets close to me.

I totally get what you are saying here Parker, and understand your wanting to keep everyone at a distance. I think what happened to you with this family member has more elements besides transphobia. I would say that abuse was involved too. Getting slapped and punched, for any reason, is abuse. And you do have a right to separate yourself from him, and should do that.

As for transphobia, some people just won't get it and never will. They are unwilling and incapable of doing so and there is no point in engaging them further. It serves no purpose. But not everyone is like that, Parker. Some people are misinformed and having conversations with them does enlighten them because they are openminded. Figuring out who is openminded and who isn't is tricky. Figuring out when it is safe and appropriate to confront transphobia and when it isn't is tricky too.

Case in point, it took a while to explain it to my parents before they finally got it. They had to go through their own processing and out-growing of their close-mindedness before they could really get it. But eventually they got it and we have a good relationship now. You just have to figure out if someone is respectful and openminded enough to hear you and take you seriously. Sounds like you have family members who aren't and that is very sad and painful. Being here among us other transfolk and trans-allys can be healthy and healing for you and I hope you stick with us.

[Jet]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I totally get what you are saying here Parker, and understand your wanting to keep everyone at a distance. I think what happened to you with this family member has more elements besides transphobia. I would say that abuse was involved too. Getting slapped and punched, for any reason, is abuse. And you do have a right to separate yourself from him, and should do that.

As for transphobia, some people just won't get it and never will. They are unwilling and incapable of doing so and there is no point in engaging them further. It serves no purpose. But not everyone is like that, Parker. Some people are misinformed and having conversations with them does enlighten them because they are openminded. Figuring out who is openminded and who isn't is tricky. Figuring out when it is safe and appropriate to confront transphobia and when it isn't is tricky too.

Case in point, it took a while to explain it to my parents before they finally got it. They had to go through their own processing and out-growing of their close-mindedness before they could really get it. But eventually they got it and we have a good relationship now. You just have to figure out if someone is respectful and openminded enough to hear you and take you seriously. Sounds like you have family members who aren't and that is very sad and painful. Being here among us other transfolk and trans-allys can be healthy and healing for you and I hope you stick with us.

transphobia, physical and verbal abuse: Doesn't matter. They're both shit. And I've had my share. As such, I won't get close to anyone.
Not femmes, not transguys, not family, no one. Thanks for the kind note AZ.