Poll: Should owners of dogs that kill people be prosecuted for murder?

AtLast · 07-24-2010, 10:12 PM

Great discussion! Getting a lot from other people's thinking about this. i knew there would be lots of ways to look at this. Thanks.

AtLast · 07-25-2010, 03:11 AM

About the SF dog mauling killing and second degree murder conviction (upheld) a few years back. Thye woman killed was Diane Whipple and she was mauled beyond recognition. The owner was found guilty of second degree murder.

http://articles.sfgate.com/2005-05-0...der-conviction

"The appeals court said the evidence showed Knoller had known that the 140- pound Presa Canario that killed Whipple was "a frightening and dangerous animal: huge, untrained and bred to fight."

Does anyone know if negligent homicide is used as a charge in any state?

I am a dog lover and owner and take great pains to socialize my pooches as well as observe leash laws and frankly, I have put down a dog in the past due to aggressive behavior (bit 3 people, one a pregnant woman. Dog was co-owned with a partner and I wanted to put him down after the second bite). Not easy, but, the writing was on the wall to me about him not being safe (100 lb German Shepherd). We did it at our vet's office and both were with him.

I take care of my dogs and take the time for training and well, I interact with them (now, only have one) as family, really. But, I will not keep or bring to a shelter (so that it becomes someone else's problem and remains a threat) an aggressive dog that could pose a danger to people. Unfortunately, some dogs are.

I don't agree with breed stereotypes that surround certain breeds like Pit bulls as I know some that are great dogs and have very responsible owners.

There was just another child mauled and killed here this past week and yesterday another little girl was mauled (she is in stable condition). both incidents were by Pit Bulls. I have certainly heard about maulings about other breeds.

When I see people do dumb things with dogs that can lead to a dog being aggressive, or just not being a responsible dog owner, it makes me mad. Dogs deserve to be nurtured and interacted with... loved and cared for.

I guess I look at this in terms of a dog owner being negligent. So, even though the Whipple case was horrifying and frankly, the dog's owners were a number one assholes and knew the lethality of the dog, I don't know that murder is the correct charge. But, I sure think that criminal charges with some severity in sentencing should be in play. what people are saying about intent makes sense to me. although, in CA intent is only part of the first degree murder charge.

The controversy that we in Northern CA during the Whipple case is going to go full tilt again and the Whipple case set precedent for a murder conviction. Although, the dog that killed the child this past week belonged to the step-father of the child. That might have bearing.

I have no patience at all with people that do not neuter and spay their dogs. Yes, breeders obviously need in-tact dogs. Although, reputable and responsible breeders I know do not let their dogs run all over anyway. These are usually show quality dogs and breeders do not want them to even get in fights at dog parks for fear of scaring, etc. I really don’t care for back-yard breeding. We have enough dogs that are neglected or in shelters.

I so wish that when people decide to get a dog they researched breeds and mixes to determine which ones fit their lifestyle. Also, realize it is a big commitment. I couldn’t live without a pooch, but they are just part of my life. And some people should not have dogs at all.

Blade · 07-25-2010, 08:00 AM

That is a great post above me ALH! When I was working with dogs I never sold working stock for family pets. Also as a responsible breeder, if people brought their children with them to pick out a dog or puppy if their children weren't well behaved I figured their adult dog wouldn't be either and the price of dogs just went up, or that litter is all sold or those are to young or something.

Once a guy called me out on it and I point blank told him. You have brought 5 kids with you out here and you don't have very good control over them, I can't in good faith sell you a dog that will grow to be 100 pounds or more and you have 5 kids under 12 that are this undisciplined. Yep he was pissed and left in a huff.

Apocalipstic · 07-25-2010, 08:38 AM

It breaks my heart that people train dogs to fight and fight them.

My dogs (and cats) are always very sweet and well behaved.

I think in TN negligent homicide is negligent manslaughter. Man 2 or 3.

I have been bitten by a chow and a teacup poodle. The poodle bit me in the face with no provocation. The chow just lunged at me for no reason too. I blame the parents.

Stearns · 07-25-2010, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

<snip>
Does anyone know if negligent homicide is used as a charge in any state?

Negligent homicide is called involuntary manslaughter in many states. The person did not intend the death, nor was the action they took a crime, but it was something that most reasonable people would not do. Such as, playing with a loaded gun when others are in the room. It seems like most states have a dangerous dog statute and that involuntary manslaughter is most often used only after the dog had previously been declared dangerous.

I agree with others on here. If the owner ordered the dog to attack, then they should be charged with murder. If the owner knew the dog was dangerous, but did not intend the dog to attack, then I'd go with involuntary manslaughter.

Rockinonahigh · 07-25-2010, 10:03 AM

I have only been bitten once and it was by a greman shepard guarding her pups newly born,I had no idea they were in the barn,she belonged to a friend of mine and had all her shots.She could have easly took a big hold of my leg and done some real damage but only gave me a warning and riped a new air of levis,a little later that day she came out of the stall sat at my knee then appologised as much as a dog could..she even sniffed my knee to see if I was hurt ,infact thats the one and only time she ever bit anyone.
One other thing I have found disterbing is something I saw at the vets one day..a couple brought in two pit bull pups about eight weeks old,they were as playfull as any pups....then they brought in momma who cleard the room,she was muzzled choke collard and all she also lookd like she had a fue fights in her day from the scars on her.These ppl lived in an appartment complex with many ppl around,I know pit bulls are bred to guard and are used to fight (wich im totaly against any dog fighting)..I wondered if those pups were heaed for the ring or would be nice dogs to be around as they grew up.I know many large dogs get a bum rap about being mean and biteing ppl but it shure makes me wary around any large dog cause of this.I know small dogs can be just as bad.

Apocalipstic · 07-25-2010, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockinonahigh

I have only been bitten once and it was by a greman shepard guarding her pups newly born,I had no idea they were in the barn,she belonged to a friend of mine and had all her shots.She could have easly took a big hold of my leg and done some real damage but only gave me a warning and riped a new air of levis,a little later that day she came out of the stall sat at my knee then appologised as much as a dog could..she even sniffed my knee to see if I was hurt ,infact thats the one and only time she ever bit anyone.
One other thing I have found disterbing is something I saw at the vets one day..a couple brought in two pit bull pups about eight weeks old,they were as playfull as any pups....then they brought in momma who cleard the room,she was muzzled choke collard and all she also lookd like she had a fue fights in her day from the scars on her.These ppl lived in an appartment complex with many ppl around,I know pit bulls are bred to guard and are used to fight (wich im totaly against any dog fighting)..I wondered if those pups were heaed for the ring or would be nice dogs to be around as they grew up.I know many large dogs get a bum rap about being mean and biteing ppl but it shure makes me wary around any large dog cause of this.I know small dogs can be just as bad.

That is so sad about thw puppies. I wonder what happened to them.

Amen on little dogs acting bad...people think it's cute.

Nat · 07-25-2010, 10:46 AM

In the case of Marjorie Knoller, I have no issue with her being convicted of murder.

Quote:

(San Francisco, California) A woman whose dogs viciously attacked and killed her neighbor in the hallway of their apartment building seven years ago was sentenced Monday to 15 years to life in prison.

Marjorie Knoller was convicted of second-degree murder in the 2001 mauling death of Dianne Whipple, but a judge later reduced the charge to involuntary manslaughter and sentenced her in 2002 to a four-year prison ...

The case is the California’s first murder conviction connected to a dog mauling, prosecutors say.

The case turned into a tabloid sensation because of the viciousness of the attack – the dogs tore all of Whipple’s clothing from her body and left her with more than 70 bites – and the seemingly cavalier attitudes of Knoller and her law partner and husband, Robert Noel, who blamed Whipple for the attack.

...
In denying Knoller’s plea for probation, Woolard noted that Knoller didn’t call 911 or otherwise try to help Whipple during the 10-minute attack. The judge said Knoller knew the dogs were dangerous, ignored numerous warnings to train them and hasn’t expressed remorse for the attack.

Also as a child growing up, there were days I walked home from school and found myself cornered by an aggressive-seeming, growling, salivating dog and I am still pissed at their owners. One time I had to go into somebody's screened-in porch to get away from somebody's doberman. I find it truly obnoxious when dog owners let their dogs loose and don't observe/control them. I find it criminal when they do so if their dogs are aggressive.

Rockinonahigh · 07-25-2010, 10:47 AM

Apocoliptic..Yeah sad about the pups cause I know if they are well cared for by responsable owners they would be ok.Hear dog fighting is outlawed but still is going on in deep dark corners,recently the city has put in a law about pit bulls and chows in residential areas being proberly contained and handled by the owner but im not hearing much about inforcememt.
Ya know I once beleaved that all animals were born with a clean slate and were taught to be mean...I have changed my mind greatly over the years.I know there is such a thing as inherited insanity in varing degrees as well as agressiveness.When I got fully involved in horse breeding I saw this many times in new born foals and thrue out the lives of many it was the same so these horses were hard to handle...those were the ones that had appointmenats with the vet to get gelded asap wich often helped some grew out of it most didnt..then I got into raiseing dogs...oh holy godess the inbreeding I found was out of this world.One dog had a litter of 8 pups one of them I swear was born growling and snarling,momma was ok the other pups were ok..but this one was as nasty minded as any thing I ever saw,as a pup after he got old enough to be able to boss the other pups around he did with a vengence..I weand him early,had him nutered ,did all i could to change his state of mind...nothing worked so finaly at four months old I had him put down.No I didnt like doin this but I felt it was a safty call cause all I could see was trouble becomeing worse as he got older.Crazy thing was I got offered so much money for him it was unreal by ppl who thought it was cute..

AtLast · 07-26-2010, 11:38 PM

How many of you are protective of your dog in terms of other people? Although my little guy has never displayed any behavior that he would bite, I am really cautious about things like kids petting him. I always get down next to him and hold his head for the kid to pet him. Also, he wiggles a lot, but I don't want him to jump on anyone (even if he is only 24 pounds) or do a dog smooch and have a kid move and a tooth (he's a bulldog- they stick out) land anywhere the wrong way.

I just don't want any problems. I know some of this is related to not wanting some dumb accidental thing to send a parent into a freak-out, even if they said it was OK for their kid to pet him. LOL, actually, I trust my dog more than people I don't know in terms of this!

Looks like criminal charges are being brought against the owner of one of the dogs here involved in the recent 2 dog maulings. I don't have all the facts yet.. will post when I do. One child was killed and another mauled in the face. Horrible.

View Poll Results: Murder should be one of the available charges for dog owners that own dogs that kill a person.
Yes, dog owners should be prosecuted on murder charges.	16	31.37%
No, dog owners should not be prosecuted on murder charges.	6	11.76%
The highest level of criminal charges should be manslaughter.	17	33.33%
Other. Post comments.	12	23.53%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll

07-25-2010, 08:00 AM	#3
Blade Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: TG Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: once in a while someone amazing comes along...and here I am! Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Down on the farm Posts: 5,501 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,855 Thanked 14,414 Times in 4,058 Posts Rep Power: 21474857	That is a great post above me ALH! When I was working with dogs I never sold working stock for family pets. Also as a responsible breeder, if people brought their children with them to pick out a dog or puppy if their children weren't well behaved I figured their adult dog wouldn't be either and the price of dogs just went up, or that litter is all sold or those are to young or something. Once a guy called me out on it and I point blank told him. You have brought 5 kids with you out here and you don't have very good control over them, I can't in good faith sell you a dog that will grow to be 100 pounds or more and you have 5 kids under 12 that are this undisciplined. Yep he was pissed and left in a huff. __________________ Yeah so what if I'm triple dipped in awesome sauce? The best way to predict the future, is to create it.

07-25-2010, 08:38 AM	#4
Apocalipstic Pink Confection How Do You Identify?: Femme Preferred Pronoun?: She, Her, Ma'am Relationship Status: Dating Myself Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Nashville Posts: 4,266 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 17,195 Thanked 11,362 Times in 2,838 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	It breaks my heart that people train dogs to fight and fight them. My dogs (and cats) are always very sweet and well behaved. I think in TN negligent homicide is negligent manslaughter. Man 2 or 3. I have been bitten by a chow and a teacup poodle. The poodle bit me in the face with no provocation. The chow just lunged at me for no reason too. I blame the parents. __________________

07-26-2010, 11:38 PM	#10
AtLast Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Woman Preferred Pronoun?: HER - SHE Relationship Status: Relating Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: CA & AZ I'm a Snowbird Posts: 5,408 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 11,826 Thanked 10,828 Times in 3,199 Posts Rep Power: 21474857	An aside... How many of you are protective of your dog in terms of other people? Although my little guy has never displayed any behavior that he would bite, I am really cautious about things like kids petting him. I always get down next to him and hold his head for the kid to pet him. Also, he wiggles a lot, but I don't want him to jump on anyone (even if he is only 24 pounds) or do a dog smooch and have a kid move and a tooth (he's a bulldog- they stick out) land anywhere the wrong way. I just don't want any problems. I know some of this is related to not wanting some dumb accidental thing to send a parent into a freak-out, even if they said it was OK for their kid to pet him. LOL, actually, I trust my dog more than people I don't know in terms of this! Looks like criminal charges are being brought against the owner of one of the dogs here involved in the recent 2 dog maulings. I don't have all the facts yet.. will post when I do. One child was killed and another mauled in the face. Horrible.

07-24-2010, 10:12 PM	#1
AtLast Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Woman Preferred Pronoun?: HER - SHE Relationship Status: Relating Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: CA & AZ I'm a Snowbird Posts: 5,408 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 11,826 Thanked 10,828 Times in 3,199 Posts Rep Power: 21474857	Great discussion! Getting a lot from other people's thinking about this. i knew there would be lots of ways to look at this. Thanks.

07-25-2010, 03:11 AM	#2
AtLast Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Woman Preferred Pronoun?: HER - SHE Relationship Status: Relating Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: CA & AZ I'm a Snowbird Posts: 5,408 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 11,826 Thanked 10,828 Times in 3,199 Posts Rep Power: 21474857	About the SF dog mauling killing and second degree murder conviction (upheld) a few years back. Thye woman killed was Diane Whipple and she was mauled beyond recognition. The owner was found guilty of second degree murder. http://articles.sfgate.com/2005-05-0...der-conviction "The appeals court said the evidence showed Knoller had known that the 140- pound Presa Canario that killed Whipple was "a frightening and dangerous animal: huge, untrained and bred to fight." Does anyone know if negligent homicide is used as a charge in any state? I am a dog lover and owner and take great pains to socialize my pooches as well as observe leash laws and frankly, I have put down a dog in the past due to aggressive behavior (bit 3 people, one a pregnant woman. Dog was co-owned with a partner and I wanted to put him down after the second bite). Not easy, but, the writing was on the wall to me about him not being safe (100 lb German Shepherd). We did it at our vet's office and both were with him. I take care of my dogs and take the time for training and well, I interact with them (now, only have one) as family, really. But, I will not keep or bring to a shelter (so that it becomes someone else's problem and remains a threat) an aggressive dog that could pose a danger to people. Unfortunately, some dogs are. I don't agree with breed stereotypes that surround certain breeds like Pit bulls as I know some that are great dogs and have very responsible owners. There was just another child mauled and killed here this past week and yesterday another little girl was mauled (she is in stable condition). both incidents were by Pit Bulls. I have certainly heard about maulings about other breeds. When I see people do dumb things with dogs that can lead to a dog being aggressive, or just not being a responsible dog owner, it makes me mad. Dogs deserve to be nurtured and interacted with... loved and cared for. I guess I look at this in terms of a dog owner being negligent. So, even though the Whipple case was horrifying and frankly, the dog's owners were a number one assholes and knew the lethality of the dog, I don't know that murder is the correct charge. But, I sure think that criminal charges with some severity in sentencing should be in play. what people are saying about intent makes sense to me. although, in CA intent is only part of the first degree murder charge. The controversy that we in Northern CA during the Whipple case is going to go full tilt again and the Whipple case set precedent for a murder conviction. Although, the dog that killed the child this past week belonged to the step-father of the child. That might have bearing. I have no patience at all with people that do not neuter and spay their dogs. Yes, breeders obviously need in-tact dogs. Although, reputable and responsible breeders I know do not let their dogs run all over anyway. These are usually show quality dogs and breeders do not want them to even get in fights at dog parks for fear of scaring, etc. I really don’t care for back-yard breeding. We have enough dogs that are neglected or in shelters. I so wish that when people decide to get a dog they researched breeds and mixes to determine which ones fit their lifestyle. Also, realize it is a big commitment. I couldn’t live without a pooch, but they are just part of my life. And some people should not have dogs at all.

07-25-2010, 10:03 AM	#6
Rockinonahigh Senior Member How Do You Identify?: stone butch Preferred Pronoun?: makes no diffrence,I know who I am. Relationship Status: single,maybe looking if the right person comes along. Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: shreveport,Louisiana Posts: 4,907 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 4,682 Thanked 14,933 Times in 3,938 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	I have only been bitten once and it was by a greman shepard guarding her pups newly born,I had no idea they were in the barn,she belonged to a friend of mine and had all her shots.She could have easly took a big hold of my leg and done some real damage but only gave me a warning and riped a new air of levis,a little later that day she came out of the stall sat at my knee then appologised as much as a dog could..she even sniffed my knee to see if I was hurt ,infact thats the one and only time she ever bit anyone. One other thing I have found disterbing is something I saw at the vets one day..a couple brought in two pit bull pups about eight weeks old,they were as playfull as any pups....then they brought in momma who cleard the room,she was muzzled choke collard and all she also lookd like she had a fue fights in her day from the scars on her.These ppl lived in an appartment complex with many ppl around,I know pit bulls are bred to guard and are used to fight (wich im totaly against any dog fighting)..I wondered if those pups were heaed for the ring or would be nice dogs to be around as they grew up.I know many large dogs get a bum rap about being mean and biteing ppl but it shure makes me wary around any large dog cause of this.I know small dogs can be just as bad.

07-25-2010, 10:47 AM	#9
Rockinonahigh Senior Member How Do You Identify?: stone butch Preferred Pronoun?: makes no diffrence,I know who I am. Relationship Status: single,maybe looking if the right person comes along. Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: shreveport,Louisiana Posts: 4,907 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 4,682 Thanked 14,933 Times in 3,938 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	Apocoliptic..Yeah sad about the pups cause I know if they are well cared for by responsable owners they would be ok.Hear dog fighting is outlawed but still is going on in deep dark corners,recently the city has put in a law about pit bulls and chows in residential areas being proberly contained and handled by the owner but im not hearing much about inforcememt. Ya know I once beleaved that all animals were born with a clean slate and were taught to be mean...I have changed my mind greatly over the years.I know there is such a thing as inherited insanity in varing degrees as well as agressiveness.When I got fully involved in horse breeding I saw this many times in new born foals and thrue out the lives of many it was the same so these horses were hard to handle...those were the ones that had appointmenats with the vet to get gelded asap wich often helped some grew out of it most didnt..then I got into raiseing dogs...oh holy godess the inbreeding I found was out of this world.One dog had a litter of 8 pups one of them I swear was born growling and snarling,momma was ok the other pups were ok..but this one was as nasty minded as any thing I ever saw,as a pup after he got old enough to be able to boss the other pups around he did with a vengence..I weand him early,had him nutered ,did all i could to change his state of mind...nothing worked so finaly at four months old I had him put down.No I didnt like doin this but I felt it was a safty call cause all I could see was trouble becomeing worse as he got older.Crazy thing was I got offered so much money for him it was unreal by ppl who thought it was cute..