Gay Marriage until...a break up. Why Gays need to walk the walk.

SuperFemme · 07-27-2010, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Yes, I think if Gays marry we should have to get a real divorce.

But we don't know what is really happening? or do we? Personally?

In straight marriages almost no one get's alimony (I read 4%) any more and the court refused to give Tammy 25K beacause Melissa is paying all Tammy's bills according to court documents.

Melissa wants to share custody of the twins, Tammy wants 100% custody.

Next court date is in September.

I don't know what really happened, it should be interesting to see how the courts rule! I think comments on Melissa's character may be premature?

Intesting subject SF!

The line I bolded is what I want to talk about.

I don't know the particulars of the singers break up, nor do I want to. I was just using it as an example - of a visible queer that has advocated for Gay Marriage, and is not ending hers like everyone else who has been afforded that basic civil right.

Perhaps Melissa Etheridge was a bad example? I just read something about it and it made me start thinking, hence the subject in this thread.

Corkey · 07-27-2010, 04:59 PM

If Ami and I were to ever divorce one of us would have to live in Canada for 6 months to abide by the country's divorce laws. There are no easy solutions to divorce, just as entering into marriage is something of a serious act. I know those of us who are married here take our commitment very seriously. Divorce is serious as well, both for the financial and emotional aspects. A certain maturity is required to be married. That doesn't end when getting a divorce.
When I married Ami it was for the rest of my life, I made a conscious decision to work always on our marriage. I'm not a youngster who is still looking for the greener pastures. My life is full and wonderful.

SuperFemme · 07-27-2010, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corkey

If Ami and I were to ever divorce one of us would have to live in Canada for 6 months to abide by the country's divorce laws. There are no easy solutions to divorce, just as entering into marriage is something of a serious act. I know those of us who are married here take our commitment very seriously. Divorce is serious as well, both for the financial and emotional aspects. A certain maturity is required to be married. That doesn't end when getting a divorce.
When I married Ami it was for the rest of my life, I made a conscious decision to work always on our marriage. I'm not a youngster who is still looking for the greener pastures. My life is full and wonderful.

I agree with you about the entire concept of marriage. I also agree with whomever it was that pointed out that marriage is the beginning of a journey...not the end of one.

It takes work, hard work sometimes. It also means that we should be aware of the consequences on each other and our families should the marriage end. By divorce or by death....

I don't think I'll ever get divorced, but if I did, I would sure not shirk my responsibilities. I would allow my kids a relationship, rather than using them as a tool as so often happens. I would not cut anyone out of our family using anti-gay ideology. Of course, that is "me", my views and I am not trying to project them on anyone else.

Over the past five years, being an activist for Gay Marriage here in CA and being in the trenches...with that raw emotion? I think I maybe take it too personally when I see a gay person who has a track record of being an activist for the same thing, do something so opposite I suppose.

As I mentioned, our marriage license is a love hate thing. I love that we have it, and have no idea at the moment if we are going to keep it, or if the repeal of our civil rights will erase it forever. It hurts my heart to see people I love filling out DP papers, rather than getting a license. I almost feel like a traitor sometimes.

I know lots of people think the word marriage is disposable, and the sticking point. That if we just call it something else, they'll acquiesce. I don't want something else. I want equal rights.

And I am prepared (as are thousands of my peers) to take those rights seriously, just like I take my marriage seriously.

Corkey · 07-27-2010, 05:21 PM

I wish we did live in a state that recognized our marriage, but it isn't this one. We aren't able to even have domestic partnerships or civil unions. We still have our documents to help protect us at hospitals, but that doesn't give us any protections as far as banking or federal rights others have. We can't combine our incomes into one joint account because of my SSDI. That however doesn't prevent us from maintaining our household as one unit. If I should die, Ami still wouldn't be able to get surviving spousal payments from Soc Sec. We have a long fight ahead of us, one I doubt I'll see the fruition of in my lifetime.

SuperFemme · 07-27-2010, 05:25 PM

NOM is making a tour of hate. Today they were in Madison Wisconsin.
NOM supports = 54 (one sign read that the solution to gay marriage was..and it showed a picture of two nooses).
Equality Protesters = 466

Here is a video of the protesters on the Equality side.
It makes me so proud of how hard we work, and how much our community is coming together. Maybe this post is off topic, I don't know.

Soon · 07-27-2010, 05:30 PM

We're keeping track of that messed up NOM bus and plan on joining the protesters when they reach Tampa in mid-August.

I suggest that everyone goes to prop8trialtracker.com to see when their bus of hate rolls into your town, so you can get out there and REPRESENT for equality!

SuperFemme · 07-27-2010, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

We're keeping track of that messed up NOM bus and plan on joining the protesters when they reach Tampa in mid-August.

I suggest that everyone goes to prop8trialtracker.com to see when their bus of hate rolls into your town, so you can get out there and REPRESENT for equality!

Yay for this post.

Soon · 07-27-2010, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Yay for this post.

thanks

one more thing: to get the list of cities that the tour of hate are going to next, go to the prop8trialtracker site then click on left tab for nomtourtracker

or just click on this: haha!
http://prop8trialtracker.com/category/nom-tour-tracker/

i LOVE how equality represented in far greater numbers than them and would like to keep seeing that this summer!

imperfect_cupcake · 07-27-2010, 05:41 PM

sorry I'm a bit confused. Of course if you get married you have to go through the same legal ritual of divorce if you end it. It's a legal contract involving notice to the gov't about your status. If that should change, you have to declare it. like if you job changes. or you move and you still wish to vote.

So I'm kinda lost. it's all exactly the same. You have to undo what was done. after falling out. which makes things hellish.

I can't imagine the kind of hoop jumping inki and I have been doing for a year through four different countries to get it *undone* but with extremely sore feelings and deep feelings of hurt and rejection at the same time, rather than a sense of joy and certainty. dear god that sounds like hell on earth to me.

I hope, if it ever happens I can be as civil as my parents were. They screwed up. But they didn't fight over the kids, they never fought in front of us, they shared one lawyer between them to save costs.

and there was a *lot* of serious wounding between the two of them. Both felt completely betrayed, ignored, disliked and belittled.

But they got over it and are good friends now.

I think that shows a different kind of commitment, especially as they did it initially (trying to get along through a divorce) because of the kids. My hat off to them.

Hack · 07-27-2010, 06:05 PM

I'm not a fan of marriage for myself, personally. I have no problem with what others want to do for themselves, of course. I think I hold myself to a higher standard because if I were to ever marry, it would be a one-time only, limited offer kind of thing. Call me old-fashioned in that Catholic-married-for-life kind of way. There's been exactly one woman who even stirred those thoughts in my little pointy head. And I think a big part of me considers that those feelings have come and now have gone. And probably won't be back. And I'm ok with that.

And, honestly, I find it hard to generate sympathy for yet another celebrity marriage -- gay, straight or otherwise -- that has fallen apart. Money, fame, celebrity does funny things to people that we can only pretend to understand.

Jake

Puplove · 07-27-2010, 06:58 PM

I agree that we should have the same responsibilities of a legally binding contract if we have the same rights, and public perception that someone fighting for gay marriage can turn around and say "never mind, that wasn't real" hurts us all. (That may not be the real situation with M.E., but it's a good thinking point.)

Even in a painful breakup, I believe that decent people won't manipulate loopholes and the non-legal situation to get out of doing what's right in divvying up possessions, child custody, etc. (although it can take time to get past the initial hurt and knee jerk anger to get to that point). Non-decent people will find a way to screw over the person they had promised to love and cherish, even if they have to pay more to do it legally.

I feel, straight or queer: if you don't want to fully commit and be willing to embrace ALL responsibilities, then don't call it a marriage (whether or not there's legal paper involved). Then, you leave yourself an out and can easily walk away when it's over.

Here is where I think the higher standard idea comes in:
The contrast between fighting to have queer relationships recognized as "just as real" as heterosexual marriages, then seeing couples walk away from each other when things get tough, because...well, there's no legally binding document requiring a negotiated contract dissolution. Straight people do it too - all the time. But, no one has to work to validate straight relationships, so they can crap all over their privileges without affecting an entire community.

It sucks, but it's there. As SF said, this is where it comes in that gays need to walk the walk.

Point to ponder: When straight people run into an old friend they haven't seen for a couple years and they catch up on mutual friends, it's rare that you hear them ask about married couples "Are John and Phyllis still together? Wow, that's great they are!!"

When queers run into old friends and they catch up, the standard questions are "Are Adam and Steve still together?" and it's a surprise when they are. How many times have you and your friends asked "are they still together" when catching up on long-term queer couple friends. Who even realizes the root of that question?

Many factors way too big to talk about (history, culture, bias, etc etc etc) have taught us to believe that long-term queer relationships are the exception, not the norm. Although more than 50% of straight marriages end in divorce, we - the "all of society" we - do not believe that long-term straight relationships are the exception.

SuperFemme · 07-27-2010, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puplove

I agree that we should have the same responsibilities of a legally binding contract if we have the same rights, and public perception that someone fighting for gay marriage can turn around and say "never mind, that wasn't real" hurts us all. (That may not be the real situation with M.E., but it's a good thinking point.)

Even in a painful breakup, I believe that decent people won't manipulate loopholes and the non-legal situation to get out of doing what's right in divvying up possessions, child custody, etc. (although it can take time to get past the initial hurt and knee jerk anger to get to that point). Non-decent people will find a way to screw over the person they had promised to love and cherish, even if they have to pay more to do it legally.

I feel, straight or queer: if you don't want to fully commit and be willing to embrace ALL responsibilities, then don't call it a marriage (whether or not there's legal paper involved). Then, you leave yourself an out and can easily walk away when it's over.

Here is where I think the higher standard idea comes in:
The contrast between fighting to have queer relationships recognized as "just as real" as heterosexual marriages, then seeing couples walk away from each other when things get tough, because...well, there's no legally binding document requiring a negotiated contract dissolution. Straight people do it too - all the time. But, no one has to work to validate straight relationships, so they can crap all over their privileges without affecting an entire community.

It sucks, but it's there. As SF said, this is where it comes in that gays need to walk the walk.

Point to ponder: When straight people run into an old friend they haven't seen for a couple years and they catch up on mutual friends, it's rare that you hear them ask about married couples "Are John and Phyllis still together? Wow, that's great they are!!"

When queers run into old friends and they catch up, the standard questions are "Are Adam and Steve still together?" and it's a surprise when they are. How many times have you and your friends asked "are they still together" when catching up on long-term queer couple friends. Who even realizes the root of that question?

Many factors way too big to talk about (history, culture, bias, etc etc etc) have taught us to believe that long-term queer relationships are the exception, not the norm. Although more than 50% of straight marriages end in divorce, we - the "all of society" we - do not believe that long-term straight relationships are the exception.

Thank you for so eloquently saying what I've been trying to say.

You bring up a fascinating point with the "is so-n-so still together" question. I remember clear as day being at a function last year and someone came up to say hello that I hadn't seen in a while. They asked if I was still seeing Cal and I swear to God they almost spit their drink out when I said yes. It was weird to me, that the follow up comment was something along the lines of how lucky I was, and how so many of "us" don't stay together.

You're absolutely right about there being tons of reasons for that, and one of those reasons is that a lot of people think we are just perverts, and that being gay is solely about sex.

That is why it is so important that we are visible as your everyday average folks next door...not a blurb on the five o'clock news from a pride parade.

Puplove · 07-27-2010, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Thank you for so eloquently saying what I've been trying to say.

You bring up a fascinating point with the "is so-n-so still together" question. I remember clear as day being at a function last year and someone came up to say hello that I hadn't seen in a while. They asked if I was still seeing Cal and I swear to God they almost spit their drink out when I said yes. It was weird to me, that the follow up comment was something along the lines of how lucky I was, and how so many of "us" don't stay together.

You're absolutely right about there being tons of reasons for that, and one of those reasons is that a lot of people think we are just perverts, and that being gay is solely about sex.

That is why it is so important that we are visible as your everyday average folks next door...not a blurb on the five o'clock news from a pride parade.

You said it! And in a super way. Thanks for starting thoughtful discussion on a really important topic.

MsTinkerbelly · 07-27-2010, 07:46 PM

So many here have said it better than I can...but I will put in my 2 cents.

I (like Superfemme and Plato) was married during California's Summer of love. I too rejoice in my marriage, and am saddened for our friends who cannot enjoy the same right.

I was married for 12 years to my daughter's Father, and I struggled with ending our marriage because I feel that marriage is for life. I did not marry my Kasey until 6 years after we began our relationship, because I was not ready to ever make that kind of promise again, and I especially thought my Kasey was not my forever person.

Through my struggles in finding myself, my Kasey was there. She is my rock, my heart, and my home. Only when I found me, was I able to see the person who felt the same way I did about forever. For better or worse, for richer or poorer....words worth fighting for everyone to have.

Divorce although not an option for us, should be handled with the same maturity and promise that you made to love and honor that person. Life happens, love happens, and yes sometimes divorce happens. Straight or Gay, there is no difference to the responcibilties we have taken on, and we should honor even the end with dignity.

07-27-2010, 04:59 PM	#2
Corkey Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Human Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Very Married Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Where I want to be Posts: 8,155 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 47,491 Thanked 29,270 Times in 6,637 Posts Rep Power: 21474859	If Ami and I were to ever divorce one of us would have to live in Canada for 6 months to abide by the country's divorce laws. There are no easy solutions to divorce, just as entering into marriage is something of a serious act. I know those of us who are married here take our commitment very seriously. Divorce is serious as well, both for the financial and emotional aspects. A certain maturity is required to be married. That doesn't end when getting a divorce. When I married Ami it was for the rest of my life, I made a conscious decision to work always on our marriage. I'm not a youngster who is still looking for the greener pastures. My life is full and wonderful. __________________ "Many proposals have been made to us to adopt your laws, your religion, your manners and your customs. We would be better pleased with beholding the good effects of these doctrines in your own practices, than with hearing you talk about them". ~Old Tassel, Chief of the Tsalagi (Cherokee)

07-27-2010, 05:21 PM	#4
Corkey Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Human Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Very Married Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Where I want to be Posts: 8,155 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 47,491 Thanked 29,270 Times in 6,637 Posts Rep Power: 21474859	I wish we did live in a state that recognized our marriage, but it isn't this one. We aren't able to even have domestic partnerships or civil unions. We still have our documents to help protect us at hospitals, but that doesn't give us any protections as far as banking or federal rights others have. We can't combine our incomes into one joint account because of my SSDI. That however doesn't prevent us from maintaining our household as one unit. If I should die, Ami still wouldn't be able to get surviving spousal payments from Soc Sec. We have a long fight ahead of us, one I doubt I'll see the fruition of in my lifetime. __________________ "Many proposals have been made to us to adopt your laws, your religion, your manners and your customs. We would be better pleased with beholding the good effects of these doctrines in your own practices, than with hearing you talk about them". ~Old Tassel, Chief of the Tsalagi (Cherokee)

07-27-2010, 06:58 PM	#11
Puplove Member How Do You Identify?: Femme Preferred Pronoun?: She Relationship Status: Single Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Austin TX Posts: 904 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 879 Thanked 3,215 Times in 705 Posts Rep Power: 21474852	I agree that we should have the same responsibilities of a legally binding contract if we have the same rights, and public perception that someone fighting for gay marriage can turn around and say "never mind, that wasn't real" hurts us all. (That may not be the real situation with M.E., but it's a good thinking point.) Even in a painful breakup, I believe that decent people won't manipulate loopholes and the non-legal situation to get out of doing what's right in divvying up possessions, child custody, etc. (although it can take time to get past the initial hurt and knee jerk anger to get to that point). Non-decent people will find a way to screw over the person they had promised to love and cherish, even if they have to pay more to do it legally. I feel, straight or queer: if you don't want to fully commit and be willing to embrace ALL responsibilities, then don't call it a marriage (whether or not there's legal paper involved). Then, you leave yourself an out and can easily walk away when it's over. Here is where I think the higher standard idea comes in: The contrast between fighting to have queer relationships recognized as "just as real" as heterosexual marriages, then seeing couples walk away from each other when things get tough, because...well, there's no legally binding document requiring a negotiated contract dissolution. Straight people do it too - all the time. But, no one has to work to validate straight relationships, so they can crap all over their privileges without affecting an entire community. It sucks, but it's there. As SF said, this is where it comes in that gays need to walk the walk. Point to ponder: When straight people run into an old friend they haven't seen for a couple years and they catch up on mutual friends, it's rare that you hear them ask about married couples "Are John and Phyllis still together? Wow, that's great they are!!" When queers run into old friends and they catch up, the standard questions are "Are Adam and Steve still together?" and it's a surprise when they are. How many times have you and your friends asked "are they still together" when catching up on long-term queer couple friends. Who even realizes the root of that question? Many factors way too big to talk about (history, culture, bias, etc etc etc) have taught us to believe that long-term queer relationships are the exception, not the norm. Although more than 50% of straight marriages end in divorce, we - the "all of society" we - do not believe that long-term straight relationships are the exception. __________________ Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things." "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "...Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."

07-27-2010, 05:25 PM	#5
SuperFemme Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Permanently Banned 10/24/2010 Preferred Pronoun?: She. Relationship Status: Married (one of 18,000) Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Atascadero, CA Posts: 4,933 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,309 Thanked 7,108 Times in 2,327 Posts Rep Power: 0	NOM is making a tour of hate. Today they were in Madison Wisconsin. NOM supports = 54 (one sign read that the solution to gay marriage was..and it showed a picture of two nooses). Equality Protesters = 466 Here is a video of the protesters on the Equality side. It makes me so proud of how hard we work, and how much our community is coming together. Maybe this post is off topic, I don't know.

07-27-2010, 05:30 PM	#6
Soon Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: femme Relationship Status: attached Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: . Posts: 6,896 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 29,046 Thanked 13,094 Times in 3,386 Posts Rep Power: 21474858	We're keeping track of that messed up NOM bus and plan on joining the protesters when they reach Tampa in mid-August. I suggest that everyone goes to prop8trialtracker.com to see when their bus of hate rolls into your town, so you can get out there and REPRESENT for equality!

07-27-2010, 05:41 PM	#9
imperfect_cupcake Senior Member How Do You Identify?: feminine dolly dyke Preferred Pronoun?: Your Grace Relationship Status: I put my own care first Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: In a gauze of mystery Posts: 1,776 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,426 Thanked 9,711 Times in 1,611 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	sorry I'm a bit confused. Of course if you get married you have to go through the same legal ritual of divorce if you end it. It's a legal contract involving notice to the gov't about your status. If that should change, you have to declare it. like if you job changes. or you move and you still wish to vote. So I'm kinda lost. it's all exactly the same. You have to undo what was done. after falling out. which makes things hellish. I can't imagine the kind of hoop jumping inki and I have been doing for a year through four different countries to get it undone but with extremely sore feelings and deep feelings of hurt and rejection at the same time, rather than a sense of joy and certainty. dear god that sounds like hell on earth to me. I hope, if it ever happens I can be as civil as my parents were. They screwed up. But they didn't fight over the kids, they never fought in front of us, they shared one lawyer between them to save costs. and there was a lot of serious wounding between the two of them. Both felt completely betrayed, ignored, disliked and belittled. But they got over it and are good friends now. I think that shows a different kind of commitment, especially as they did it initially (trying to get along through a divorce) because of the kids. My hat off to them.

07-27-2010, 06:05 PM	#10
Hack Just a guy. How Do You Identify?: Just a guy Preferred Pronoun?: male Relationship Status: Sparkle's consort Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: MA Posts: 1,458 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 807 Thanked 3,775 Times in 958 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	I'm not a fan of marriage for myself, personally. I have no problem with what others want to do for themselves, of course. I think I hold myself to a higher standard because if I were to ever marry, it would be a one-time only, limited offer kind of thing. Call me old-fashioned in that Catholic-married-for-life kind of way. There's been exactly one woman who even stirred those thoughts in my little pointy head. And I think a big part of me considers that those feelings have come and now have gone. And probably won't be back. And I'm ok with that. And, honestly, I find it hard to generate sympathy for yet another celebrity marriage -- gay, straight or otherwise -- that has fallen apart. Money, fame, celebrity does funny things to people that we can only pretend to understand. Jake

07-27-2010, 07:46 PM	#14
MsTinkerbelly Timed Out - TOS Drama How Do You Identify?: ... Preferred Pronoun?: ... Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: ... Posts: 6,573 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 30,737 Thanked 22,908 Times in 5,019 Posts Rep Power: 0	So many here have said it better than I can...but I will put in my 2 cents. I (like Superfemme and Plato) was married during California's Summer of love. I too rejoice in my marriage, and am saddened for our friends who cannot enjoy the same right. I was married for 12 years to my daughter's Father, and I struggled with ending our marriage because I feel that marriage is for life. I did not marry my Kasey until 6 years after we began our relationship, because I was not ready to ever make that kind of promise again, and I especially thought my Kasey was not my forever person. Through my struggles in finding myself, my Kasey was there. She is my rock, my heart, and my home. Only when I found me, was I able to see the person who felt the same way I did about forever. For better or worse, for richer or poorer....words worth fighting for everyone to have. Divorce although not an option for us, should be handled with the same maturity and promise that you made to love and honor that person. Life happens, love happens, and yes sometimes divorce happens. Straight or Gay, there is no difference to the responcibilties we have taken on, and we should honor even the end with dignity.