Lesbian Cougar Video--funny or not?

[Heart]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

If this is a satire, and I have good reason to believe it is, it is not attempting to strip women of their dignity (therefore, it is not about me making light of women or men's dignities). In fact, it is attempting to do the exact contrary by highlighting the existence of this tendency (of stripping women of their dignity) in society....

the stereotypes surrounding them that are commonly used in popular culture. It "makes light of" in order to make people aware of what they themselves may very well be perpetuating.

Ender - my question is -- does it work? I don't think it does. Because of the point I made earlier: You cannot successfully satirize something if you are basically ignorant about it on a social, cultural, and political level. That's what satire is after all - knowledgeable ironic commentary. This clip does not achieve satire - and if satire misses -- it easily becomes offensive. That's the risk of satire.

Actually the offensive part to me is the ignorant attempt at satire -- the making of satire without the requisite cultural analysis - the kind of analysis that makes The Simpsons work so well -- even when they skewer lesbians.

One last point: I am not at all convinced this was intended to be the kind of sophisticated satire you are arguing on behalf of.

Heart

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Heart

Ender - my question is -- does it work? I don't think it does. Because of the point I made earlier: You cannot successfully satirize something if you are basically ignorant about it on a social, cultural, and political level. That's what satire is after all - knowledgeable ironic commentary. This clip does not achieve satire - and if satire misses -- it easily becomes offensive. That's the risk of satire.

Hi Heart and thanks for your post,

To your first question I would response: No it doesn't work. Like I said, this guy shouldn't quit his day job any time soon. However, I don't feel that the reason this attempt at satire failed was because the author of it was ignorant lesbians, issues women face etc. I think the reason it failed was that he just didn't make it blatant enough that he was attempting to satirise this common misperception in every day society. As you said yourself, that is always the risk of satire (and arguably it happens, to some degree, with any satirical piece).

One last point: I am not at all convinced this was intended to be the kind of sophisticated satire you are arguing on behalf of.

Heart

Neither am I. But, actually, my point was not that it was akin to the genius of Candide or Les femmes savantes, but that to call the author out on misoginy himself is incorrect. Yes, he wasn't all that successful in his attempt, but let's at least recognise it for what it is. Also, there are cases where failed satires can be salvaged for a better purpose. That is part of what I am arguing as well. Do you not think that it may be more productive to approach the issue with a cool head, than with anger or throwing insults? And if it were an attempt to degrade women, would such an approach not have a better chance of gaining sympathy than mud-slinging?

[SuperFemme]

why is not agreeing with the video or disliking it = emotional reactions, anger and the lack of a cool head?

curious.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

why is not agreeing with the video or disliking it = emotional reactions, anger and the lack of a cool head?

curious.

This is where it feels like to me that whole some guy telling me to chill out and have a sense of humor, like shhh girl don't you see the comedy in it fuck if it's at your expense after all you are just

a

girl..

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

why is not agreeing with the video or disliking it = emotional reactions, anger and the lack of a cool head?

curious.

Actually, I was in part referring back to softness's comment on the "emasculated little erection" or whatever the wording was, along with a few instances where others claimed to be speaking out of anger, if I recall correctly. I can go back and find them, if you'd like.

[imperfect_cupcake]

um. I'm kinda in this disagreement too. but no one seems to be pointing out the same things to me and it's sort of wierding me out, folks. I don't want to read into that and I'd like some reassurance.

it's actually cause I smell, isn't it. you all won't fight with me cause I haven't bathed today.


actually I went back and looked at the other film that was on second city. mn. well. personally that was american collage style humour a la Adam sandler. Not Satire. So now I'm thinking second city has seriously dropped in their caliber of comedy since I was a teen/20's.

lame ass. not funny.

that said, I still don't think that first piece was promoting rape. Just poorly executed and badly written. which I think is a bigger insult than "offensive." But that's me.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

um. I'm kinda in this disagreement too. but no one seems to be pointing out the same things to me and it's sort of wierding me out, folks. I don't want to read into that and I'd like some reassurance.

it's actually cause I smell, isn't it. you all won't fight with me cause I haven't bathed today.


actually I went back and looked at the other film that was on second city. mn. well. personally that was american collage style humour a la Adam sandler. Not Satire. So now I'm thinking second city has seriously dropped in their caliber of comedy since I was a teen/20's.

lame ass. not funny.

that said, I still don't think that first piece was promoting rape. Just poorly executed and badly written. which I think is a bigger insult than "offensive." But that's me.

For me it does, grant it I don't get this kind of humor, also for me I don't feel like you are trying to school me on sattire or it's ha ha moments.

nor does it feel like to me you are schooling me on lesbian experience.

That's the difference, and well coming from a guy it irks me more so I was honest about it

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

For me it does, grant it I don't get this kind of humor, also for me I don't feel like you are trying to school me on sattire or it's ha ha moments.

nor does it feel like to me you are schooling me on lesbian experience.

That's the difference, and well coming from a guy it irks me more so I was honest about it

ah ok. gocha. I get you.



EnderD, it appears I am more well done spoken than you. so ner.

[weatherboi]

well i do disagree with you but i choose to discuss towards people who are like me!!! you id as a woman and are a part of the oppressed group ...i am not comfortable that my experience in life gives me the freedom to openly debate it with you!!! i am not an older lesbian, i am an older trans guy!!! when i read posts that come from guys like me that seem to run defensively in a passive manner to avoid confronting misogyny i feel more inclined to engage in the conversation with them!!!

hope that makes sense!!!

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

um. I'm kinda in this disagreement too. but no one seems to be pointing out the same things to me and it's sort of wierding me out, folks. I don't want to read into that and I'd like some reassurance.

it's actually cause I smell, isn't it. you all won't fight with me cause I haven't bathed today.


actually I went back and looked at the other film that was on second city. mn. well. personally that was american collage style humour a la Adam sandler. Not Satire. So now I'm thinking second city has seriously dropped in their caliber of comedy since I was a teen/20's.

lame ass. not funny.

that said, I still don't think that first piece was promoting rape. Just poorly executed and badly written. which I think is a bigger insult than "offensive." But that's me.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

well i do disagree with you but i choose to discuss towards people who are like me!!! you id as a woman and are a part of the oppressed group ...i am not comfortable that my experience in life gives me the freedom to openly debate it with you!!! i am not an older lesbian, i am an older trans guy!!! when i read posts that come from guys like me that seem to run defensively in a passive manner to avoid confronting misogyny i feel more inclined to engage in the conversation with them!!!

hope that makes sense!!!

ohhh. yeah ok.

fairy muff.

you wanna arm wrestle instead then?

[MsMerrick]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

um. I'm kinda in this disagreement too. but no one seems to be pointing out the same things to me and it's sort of wierding me out, folks. I don't want to read into that and I'd like some reassurance.

it's actually cause I smell, isn't it. you all won't fight with me cause I haven't bathed today.


actually I went back and looked at the other film that was on second city. mn. well. personally that was american collage style humour a la Adam sandler. Not Satire. So now I'm thinking second city has seriously dropped in their caliber of comedy since I was a teen/20's.

lame ass. not funny.

that said, I still don't think that first piece was promoting rape. Just poorly executed and badly written. which I think is a bigger insult than "offensive." But that's me.

I was kind of wondering exactly that ....I mean, I did too .. Admittedly I didn't have time to stick around and say it a couple more times ..!

[BullDog]

I haven't seen people focusing on the video makers themselves. I have seen them focused on the end product. Not sure why there is a need to defend the video makers or understand what their intent was. Are the "creators" and supposed art form (satire) of this product more important to you than the subject matter?

Their end product sucks. Actually the main stereotype it is perpetuating is that young girls are just fuckholes. I agree with Heart that actually this so-called lesbian stereotype that apparently they are trying to "mock" isn't really all that prevalent (except for the bad clothes and hairdos). They don't appear to know much about lesbians and they don't appear to know the potential damaging consequences of missing their mark.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I haven't seen people focusing on the video makers themselves. I have seen them focused on the end product. Not sure why there is a need to defend the video makers or understand what their intent was. Are the "creators" and supposed art form (satire) of this product more important to you than the subject matter?

I've seen a few people focusing their anger on the video makers themselves. I hesitate to go back and pull posts because last time I did that on the b-f.com forum people told me not to quote them. So if people don't actually mind, I don't mind going back and doing so, if that's what you're actually asking me to do.

I do think that the creators and art do dictate the subject matter to a degree. The final result may be separate, yes, and it is entirely possible to read any work of art in myriad of different ways, sometimes entirely against what the author intended.

Their end product sucks. Actually the main stereotype it is perpetuating is that young girls are just fuckholes. I agree with Heart that actually this so-called lesbian stereotype that apparently they are trying to "mock" isn't really all that prevalent (except for the bad clothes and hairdos). They don't appear to know much about lesbians and they don't appear to know the potential damaging consequences of missing their mark.

Let us say they don't know the potentially damaging consequences. What do you think an appropriate way of addressing that would be?

[Corkey]

I'm sorry Ender, art has some redeeming value, even art that depicts some rather socially controversial stuff. This isn't art, it is garbage wrapped up to look like steak. I don't know why you are defending this, you have a right to, but it makes no since to me that you do.