Concealed weapons. Yes or No ???

[AtLast]

I know the possibility of someone carrying concealed (legally or not) is high. Has to do with where I live. It does bother me because idiots can get riled and pull the damn gun out and... boom! Many kids are carrying and I am very aware of the fact that getting into some kind of argument with them may be at my peril. I don't own a gun and don't want one. i will avoid conflict due to the fact that I know there are so many people around me that do have guns on their person.

I grew up in a hunting family and guns were in my home (rifles and shot guns). As a kid, I hunted. We all took NRA training and my Dad kept all guns and shells locked-up.

Once, I dated a woman that carried all of the time because of the neighborhood she lived in. I was not comfortable with her bringi8ng the gun into my home, so, she locked it in a box in her trunk. But, it was her right to have it as far as I was concerned, just not around me. she had a license, went to shooting practice and seemed like a responsible gun owner to me. I don't want one near me.

[betenoire]

The whole "I feel more safe knowing that people carry guns" thing confuses me. It makes me feel as though you aren't thinking things through.

There is a higher percentage of violent crime (personal crime) in the US than there is here - so how are your guns making you any safer? I would argue that it makes you LESS safe. When I visit the US I try hard not to think about the fact that the people around me might have handguns in their purses - because if I think about that too much I WILL NOT VISIT THE US. It's too scary for me. Like Atlast said - I also, knowing that the people around me are likely to have a gun, avoid conflict in the US. I do not feel safer. I feel intimidated.

People who are super in favour of carrying guns always seem to (with me) use the argument that there is less property crime (theft, vandalism, etc) in the US. But I ask you this: Would you rather have someone steal something of yours...or would you rather get shot? I mean, honestly. It should be a no-brainer.

If someone is going to assault me in Canada, they are more likely to use a knife than a gun. I would much rather get stabbed than get shot - you're more likely to survive a knife wound than a bullet wound.

I have no problem with people keeping guns in their house for hunting, for collections, etc. I do have a problem with people keeping LOADED guns in their house. I have a bigger problem with people keeping loaded guns on their person out in public. It sounds judgmental - but I could not be friends with someone who carried a gun with them because I would be uncomfortable and feel unsafe while hanging out with them.

My father has a hunting rifle in his house. No problem there. He keeps it locked in a cabinet. He keeps his bullets locked in a box in another area of the house. He does not keep the key to the cabinet and the key to the box in the same place. That's the law - except for the thing about keeping the keys separate, that's just about my Dad being my Dad.

Speaking as an outsider: American culture in general strikes me as pretty gun loving. American culture ALSO strikes me as very fear driven. Fear and guns sounds like a really shitty combination to me. Your media and your politicians seem to be pulling together to get you guys afraid and KEEP you afraid. Scared people toe the line. Scared people don't speak up, act out, or make a scene. Scared people strike me as less free.

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I know the possibility of someone carrying concealed (legally or not) is high. Has to do with where I live. It does bother me because idiots can get riled and pull the damn gun out and... boom! Many kids are carrying and I am very aware of the fact that getting into some kind of argument with them may be at my peril.

Precisely. Permit or no permit, education or not, it just takes one emotionally charged incident to justify (whether rational or not) shooting someone.

I love guns. I love all kinds of weaponry, actually. But I don't have any in my house. That may change, but for now, I have no use for a gun in my house. I'm okay with that. I'm not okay with carrying one around 24/7. I'm not okay knowing someone that walks around with one either.

Not too long ago, someone very close to us dated a military man -- who obviously had a permit to carry guns. Well, long story short, turns out the fucker was a psycho, who not only had legal guns, but a shit load of illegal ones as well - and carried them around with him in his truck. And, he wasn't afraid to threaten people with it, or intimidate people by letting them know he was carrying one. Point is, people who you think should be trusted with guns, really aren't. You might think that is an isolated incident, but is it really? I don't think so. I know too many cops who shouldn't be carrying guns.

Where I do believe that everyone has a right to bear arms, I also think of the dangers associated with that "freedom". It does all boil down to responsibility, but even the most responsible person "loses it" at some point. I can only hope I am not in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Stearns]

It just amazes me when people blame and worry about innocent, law-abiding U.S. citizens having guns. In my opinion, THAT'S what's wrong - misplaced responsibility. Let the predatory criminals do whatever they want, and god forbid someone try to stop them?

You cannot wipe out generations who used and viewed guns as a means of survival - for food and safety. Try stabbing a poisonous snake, go ahead. Those of us who grew up around guns were taught to use them only for defense (excluding target-shooting and hunting). It is those who misuse guns - i.e., for offensive purposes - who are to blame, are they not?

Should we have a society where there is no need for citizens to have handguns? That would be wonderful, and I challenge you to find one person in the U.S. who wouldn't want to live in such a manner. The reality is, unfortunately, very different. We absolutely do live in a culture of fear of violence. It is not without reason and evidence as some suggest, however. Rather than condemnation, is there compassion? Compassion for those who don't contribute to such an environment; for those who would like nothing better than to be able to leave their windows open and doors unlocked at night; for those who don't molest; for those who don't prey upon others.

I'd like to know, from those of you who do not believe innocent, law-abiding citizens should own guns, what your suggestion is. What would you do, if you could, to end the culture of violence in the U.S.? This is a serious question; I'm truly interested in your proposed solutions.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Stearns

It just amazes me when people blame and worry about innocent, law-abiding U.S. citizens having guns. In my opinion, THAT'S what's wrong - misplaced responsibility. Let the predatory criminals do whatever they want, and god forbid someone try to stop them?

You cannot wipe out generations who used and viewed guns as a means of survival - for food and safety. Try stabbing a poisonous snake, go ahead. Those of us who grew up around guns were taught to use them only for defense (excluding target-shooting and hunting). It is those who misuse guns - i.e., for offensive purposes - who are to blame, are they not?

Should we have a society where there is no need for citizens to have handguns? That would be wonderful, and I challenge you to find one person in the U.S. who wouldn't want to live in such a manner. The reality is, unfortunately, very different. We absolutely do live in a culture of fear of violence. It is not without reason and evidence as some suggest, however. Rather than condemnation, is there compassion? Compassion for those who don't contribute to such an environment; for those who would like nothing better than to be able to leave their windows open and doors unlocked at night; for those who don't molest; for those who don't prey upon others.

I'd like to know, from those of you who do not believe innocent, law-abiding citizens should own guns, what your suggestion is. What would you do, if you could, to end the culture of violence in the U.S.? This is a serious question; I'm truly interested in your proposed solutions.

Saying that those opposed to citizens arming themselves with either concealed or not concealed weapons is not saying this: " Let the predatory criminals do whatever they want, and god forbid someone try to stop them." That's a false argument.

Having ordinary citizens (many of whom are not "innocent" and most of whom are not sharp shooters) will not decrease crime or violence in any way, shape or form.

This reminds me of the argument of trying to say that having nuclear weapons that can blow the world up to smithereens somehow makes the world safer. More guns just increases the odds more violence is going to happen- simple math.

Having more people with guns- do you really think the "predatory" criminals are going to be deterred by ordinary citizens carrying guns? Personally I think they will be rolling in the aisles at the thought of Sam and Sally Sharpshooter trying to take them down.

It's always quite telling the international response to the gun issue versus Americans (USA variety). People in other countries are just as concerned about crime and protecting their loved ones as we are. They don't see guns as the answer.

[Stearns]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Saying that those opposed to citizens arming themselves with either concealed or not concealed weapons is not saying this: " Let the predatory criminals do whatever they want, and god forbid someone try to stop them." That's a false argument.

Having ordinary citizens (many of whom are not "innocent" and most of whom are not sharp shooters) will not decrease crime or violence in any way, shape or form.

This reminds me of the argument of trying to say that having nuclear weapons that can blow the world up to smithereens somehow makes the world safer. More guns just increases the odds more violence is going to happen- simple math.

Having more people with guns- do you really think the "predatory" criminals are going to be deterred by ordinary citizens carrying guns? Personally I think they will be rolling in the aisles at the thought of Sam and Sally Sharpshooter trying to take them down.

It's always quite telling the international response to the gun issue versus Americans (USA variety). People in other countries are just as concerned about crime and protecting their loved ones as we are. They don't see guns as the answer.

Good points, Bully, but I don't think citizens who arm themselves for protection have any expectations or intentions to deter and affect the overall crime rate. They just want to protect themselves and their loved ones should the need arise. Deterrence connotes proactivity. Guns for self-defense are RE-active; reacting to a situation one is dealt through no fault of their own.

I'm curious, why did you put predator in quotes?

Still waiting to hear WHAT to do, not what NOT to do.

[Toughy]

If I walked in a Starbucks and saw a bunch of folks with weapons I would RUN out the door..........scares the bejesus out of me.........I would also be willing to bet a year's pay that those folks were white in that Starbucks......and I would bet a year's pay that if all those folks armed in Starbucks were black no one would feel safe..........

more to say later............

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Stearns

Good points, Bully, but I don't think citizens who arm themselves for protection have any expectations or intentions to deter and affect the overall crime rate. They just want to protect themselves and their loved ones should the need arise. Deterrence connotes proactivity. Guns for self-defense are RE-active; reacting to a situation one is dealt through no fault of their own.

I'm curious, why did you put predator in quotes?

Still waiting to hear WHAT to do, not what NOT to do.

Well I agree with you that guns for self-defense is re-active not proactive and will not result in deterrence. I have heard many gun proponents say that gun ownership by ordinary citizens will lead to a decrease in crime, and I find that idea to be ludicrous.

I have also read several times that many (perhaps a majority but I am not sure) of crimes committed where a gun was involved that the gun was stolen. So again, having more guns in circulation is going to help how?

Certainly there are some responsible people such as yourself who would only use a gun if really, really you felt it necessary to protect yourself, wife or other loved ones. I am sure you would use good judgment and if you were to have a gun I would assume you would make sure you knew how to use it.

Do I think the majority of ordinary citizens if they were to have guns would operate in this manner? No I do not. Look at how people use their cell phones while driving (hello a moving vehicle can kill people, I don't think chatting to your friends while driving is a real responsible thing to do).

Even if used responsibly, what are the chances of an ordinary citizen armed with a gun being really able to effectively protect themselves against an armed criminal who knows going in what they are doing and the ordinary citizen is caught off guard? Also, don't armed criminals often work in groups, rather than as one person? I think people watch way too many violent cops and robbers shows and think they can be a hero. I am sure there are some wonderful exceptions to this.

As to putting quotes around predatory, I think I was off put by the whole innocent citizen thing so probably that was just unnecessary of me. There are armed violent criminals who are predatory. I think having more and more people armed with guns and more guns in circulation will just produce more of them.

My first step is make guns really, really, really, really hard to get. As hard to get as possible. Give armed police officers and any other security or what have you armed personnel lots and lots of training of when they should and shouldn't shoot off their guns (which of course is going to require more than just technical training).

Is this going to wipe out all crime as we know it? No. But I sure as hell think it beats putting more guns into circulation, especially in the hands of people who can't even drive their shopping carts through the grocery store properly.

[Stearns]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Well I agree with you that guns for self-defense is re-active not proactive and will not result in deterrence. I have heard many gun proponents say that gun ownership by ordinary citizens will lead to a decrease in crime, and I find that idea to be ludicrous.

I have also read several times that many (perhaps a majority but I am not sure) of crimes committed where a gun was involved that the gun was stolen. So again, having more guns in circulation is going to help how?

Certainly there are some responsible people such as yourself who would only use a gun if really, really you felt it necessary to protect yourself, wife or other loved ones. I am sure you would use good judgment and if you were to have a gun I would assume you would make sure you knew how to use it.

Do I think the majority of ordinary citizens if they were to have guns would operate in this manner? No I do not. Look at how people use their cell phones while driving (hello a moving vehicle can kill people, I don't think chatting to your friends while driving is a real responsible thing to do).

Even if used responsibly, what are the chances of an ordinary citizen armed with a gun being really able to effectively protect themselves against an armed criminal who knows going in what they are doing and the ordinary citizen is caught off guard? Also, don't armed criminals often work in groups, rather than as one person? I think people watch way too many violent cops and robbers shows and think they can be a hero. I am sure there are some wonderful exceptions to this.

As to putting quotes around predatory, I think I was off put by the whole innocent citizen thing so probably that was just unnecessary of me. There are armed violent criminals who are predatory. I think having more and more people armed with guns and more guns in circulation will just produce more of them.

My first step is make guns really, really, really, really hard to get. As hard to get as possible. Give armed police officers and any other security or what have you armed personnel lots and lots of training of when they should and shouldn't shoot off their guns (which of course is going to require more than just technical training).

Is this going to wipe out all crime as we know it? No. But I sure as hell think it beats putting more guns into circulation, especially in the hands of people who can't even drive their shopping carts through the grocery store properly.

Your last point was hilarious, and so true. I, too, agree that there are many people who have no business owning a gun, and they scare me often more than armed predators do. When I policed, I was filled with trepidation more when I got a violent crime in progress, "citizen armed" call than just a violent crime in progress. We would have the dispatcher tell the citizen to put their gun down and away as soon as we pulled into the driveway or parking lot. I had a citizen one time holding his handgun and use it as a pointer to show me the direction in which his house burglar had run. You can bet I had a few choice words and actions for him.

I seriously think on one point someone made that most people have enough common sense to know that you have no hope of drawing your gun if you're already drawn upon. If I were armed and got caught with a gun in my face demanding my wallet, you best believe I'd hand my wallet over. No mention of nor movement toward my gun would I make, because I have no chance of prevailing. After the gun is out of my face, I can decide then what I'm going to do. And, you're so right, that predators more often than not are not acting alone. They have at least one and sometimes more compatriots in the near vicinity watching it all go down, ready to react if something goes wrong.

If we can't rid our culture of predatory gun violence, and people continue to be allowed to arm themselves with handguns, they should absolutely have to go through extensive training and safety courses that involve multiple simulated encounters.