Parenting

[SuperFemme]

Stanford Report, August 30, 2010
BY ADAM GORLICK
Children raised by gay couples show good progress through school

By mining data from the 2000 Census, sociologist Michael Rosenfeld figured out the rates at which kids raised by gay and straight couples repeated a grade during elementary or middle school. He found that children of same-sex parents have essentially the same educational achievement as their peers growing up in heterosexual households.

Jack Hubbard Stanford research finds that children of gay and straight couples do equally well in school. Associate professor Michael Rosenfeld, Sociology, drew his research from census data.

In nearly every discussion, debate or lawsuit about gay marriage, the talk at some point turns to family values.

Do gay couples make for good parents? Will their children – whether adopted, conceived with the help of a surrogate or brought in from a pre-existing relationship – adjust, adapt and succeed in a world dominated by traditional families?

The answers usually depend on who's giving them, and come dressed in anecdotes and colored by bias. But Stanford sociologist Michael Rosenfeld brings something new to the conversation: facts and figures derived from the country's largest data bank – the U.S. Census.

In a study published this month in the journal Demography, Rosenfeld concludes that children being raised by same-sex couples have nearly the same educational achievement as children raised by married heterosexual couples.

By mining data from the 2000 Census, Rosenfeld was able to figure out the rates at which children in all types of families repeated a grade during elementary or middle school. According to his findings, nearly 7 percent of children raised by heterosexual married couples were held back a year, while about 9.5 percent of children living with adults identifying themselves as same-sex partners repeated a grade.

The difference between the groups pretty much vanishes when taking into account that the heterosexual couples were slightly more educated and wealthier than most gay parents, Rosenfeld said.

"The census data show that having parents who are the same gender is not in itself any disadvantage to children," he said. "Parents' income and education are the biggest indicators of a child's success. Family structure is a minor determinant."

Rosenfeld's findings have been cited by lawyers fighting Proposition 8, the gay marriage ban passed by California voters in 2008. A federal court judge recently overturned the ban, but his ruling is under appeal.

Rosenfeld's study shows that children of gay and married couples had lower grade-repetition rates than their peers raised by opposite-sex unmarried couples and single parents. And all children living in some type of family environment did much better than those living in group housing. Those who were awaiting adoption or placement in a foster home were held back about 34 percent of the time.

"One of the fundamental issues in modern family law that differs from state to state is whether same-sex couples can adopt," Rosenfeld said. "My research makes clear that there's a huge advantage to kids to be out of the care of the state and into the care of any family, even if the family is not perfectly optimal."

Educators, policymakers and social scientists have long known that children left back in school are at greater risk than their peers for not finishing high school and getting into trouble.

Because gays and lesbians make up such a tiny sliver of the American population – only 1 percent – it has been difficult for researchers to conduct a representative study of how their children perform in the classroom. And gay marriage opponents have criticized earlier studies for having sample sizes that are too small.

"Sample size is power," Rosenfeld said. "And the census is the biggest sample we have. This study is based on a sample of thousands and thousands of kids."

Most personal decisions about gay marriage are based on gut feelings, religious beliefs and individual experiences. Rosenfeld knows his research isn't going to change the minds of most people opposed to same-sex unions. But he has added new data to the debate that helps debunk assertions – whether based on a lack of knowledge or some unfounded fear – that children raised by gay couples cannot thrive.

"Social scientists have an obligation to shed light where they can on issues that are roiling the public," he said. "Sometimes we have to throw up our hands and admit that something is unknowable. But in this case, we could bring some real hard data to bear on an area that was otherwise really in the dark."

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2010/a...tml?view=print

[Sachita]

my son is an adult and ready to have his own child. this is sweet revenge because shes not even here and he's worried.

you can't rely on any schools or system to teach your child how to get by in this world. You have to be very proactive and damn patient. No matter what never give up on your child. I see this so often and it breaks my heart. Kids will break your heart over and over yet teach you the most unbelievable capacity to love.

my son was raised in a queer home by a very open-minded freespirited goddess leather crazy woman. over all he turned out great and as each year goes by I see him seasoning towards life and beating his own drum. This I am most proud of.

[sylvie]

proud mother of 2 teenagers here.. i have a 17 yr old boy and a 14 yr old girl.. i breezed through with my son, i admit.. we've had a few issues but nothing too stressful - but my daughter took over as far as terrible teens.. hahaha

a little while back, it felt like she was spiralling out of control and i wouldnt be able to survive it, i was sure i was losing my mind.. but i kept on her and she's made so much progress and is back to being my daughter again (i wasnt sure who took over her LOL).. sure we have our little moments still with regular teenage issues, but.. nothing at all like it was.. i refused to give up on her!

i'm so proud of my children.. they've taught me so much through life, different ways of understanding, seeing the world through a much more innocent eye, and how to love from the depths of my soul.

my biggest issue with parenting as a single parent, is relationships.. my children are sooo ready for me to meet someone and be happy.. they're at the point in their lives where they have their own things going on and don't need mom to hold their hand anymore, they feel i'm a lonely 'ol hen (laughs) but.. it's hard because when dating someone, they're taking my children on as well as me, and my passed experiences have taught me that its hard to come into a relationship with me and take on someone else's children. my children have had to take on my ex's anger and jealousy and mean things said, either to me or to them and it hurt them deeply.. (not in one relationship, but a few).. when my children are hurt, i hurt very much because i end up feeling responsible for allowing this to happen...

anyway, love this thread and looking very forward to some parenting chitchat.. if there is one thing i love about myself, it's being a parent!

[Tommi]

Originally Posted by Sachita

my son is an adult and ready to have his own child. this is sweet revenge because shes not even here and he's worried.

you can't rely on any schools or system to teach your child how to get by in this world. You have to be very proactive and damn patient. No matter what never give up on your child. I see this so often and it breaks my heart. Kids will break your heart over and over yet teach you the most unbelievable capacity to love.

my son was raised in a queer home by a very open-minded freespirited goddess leather crazy woman. over all he turned out great and as each year goes by I see him seasoning towards life and beating his own drum. This I am most proud of.

I would echo this loud and clear Sachita.

I'll never forget the day I picked Leia up at day care after first grade, at her private Christian school. I saw the principal meandering over with the first grade teacher, both just kind of staring at me. Out of the mouths of babes as they say. Leia shared with her class that day about her family. She had a dog named Snigglefritz that slept with her in her twin princess bed. That Mommy and Tommi slept in a giant bed together, but didn't need a big bed because were always cuddled together to stay warm, in just part of that big bed. She said she and Snigglefritz should have the big bed because they needed more room than we did. She told them there was another bedroom beside the den, that didn't need a bed because that was our playroom.

I saw the slight smile on their faces, and the principal simply said," I knew you two were not sisters, but kissin cousins is okay. " I told her we were not cousins, and were gay, had been together for many years prior to getting Leia when she was 2, because her Mom abandoned her. (they knew peggie was her Gramma), and if being gay was a problem we would find another school, and Leia didn't belong here then.

Mrs. Samuelson, in a motherly tone looked at me and said" I can't wait to hear more stories, and I suggest you put a lock on your bedroom door, because I can imagine when talk comes to how babies are made Leia will be happy to talk about anything she has seen or knows." Miss Taylor said, my roommate and I will have something fun to talk about at dinner. " I breathed a sigh of relief, and became a Chaperone on trips from first grade to high School , and was accepted and respected by the school staff and parents. I got to go to Catalina scuba diving, on a school bus for 8 hours with 25 screaming 3rd graders to Sacramento,CA and we flew to Disney World escorting 30 teenage girls and boys.

I miss seeing my lil kiddo's who are at Ellsworth Air Foce Base in South Dakota. Plans are for them to come home for Christmas if their Daddy is deployed to Afghanistan again.

My Mom came out when I was 17. I had always known, and she was a great role model. She made sure I understood becoming "Tommi" at 5 was okay and gay from as long as she can remember. and that I was respected and she gave me support and strength in those rough teen years I had. Now, my father was another story. and , that is another thread.





I am a proud Grandparent of Trinity Hope, a beautiful little, who next week will be 4, and Dustin Bradley, the all American boy who is 5.. We raised our daughter with the tools she needed to get out into the big old world. We tried to Keep her safe, in a private school, had her friends, and their parents at our house and showed them that a gay couple who respected each other and them is where Leia learned to do the same.

She shares with her friends about diversity, love, respect and how our employment paid her way through school. We bought her a computer for college. She met and married an Air Force Sergeant she met in a chat room, quit school, got married and is making her own way in the world.

[christie]

I typically don't post a lot about parenting. I don't want others judging my parenting skills/style and I don't want to judge theirs.

However, I find myself on a very uncertain road. I'm not sure I am looking for answers/advice or if I am looking for someone to tell me that its gonna be ok, that they have walked/walking the road or the road scares the bejezus out of them.

Some of you may know that we have a 17 (almost 18) year old son who is lovingly referred to as Bratboy. I am quite open about his being an ASPIE (Asperger's Syndrome) as well as a myriad of other acronyms. I have always prided myself on being able to navigate single-parenthood of a special needs child and really tried not to become a martyr about "Why?". Truth is, I can't imagine wanting my son to be any different than he is - except when I do.

He graduated high-school in May and is one of those kids who is just not ready in terms of maturation to attend college either away from home or close to home without some additional support systems. We are fortunate in that he has been accepted at a school about three hours from us where he will first have a nine week "life skills" course and then go on to begin the culinary arts program. He will live on campus but have more supervision than if he were at a mainstream (lack of better word) college.

The conundrum is that he is a pig and has little to no regard for the impact of his actions on others. It doesn't matter that Jess and I could both have the tidy-fit award on a daily basis. It doesn't seem to matter that we have a freakin' housekeeper and all he has to do is to pick up his crap and she will dust, do the floors and make the bed. It doesn't seem to matter that he has a mountain of dirty laundry and no clean underwear - he wears "basketball" shorts if he has no clean underwear. He deplores showering and personal hygiene as if you are asking him to bathe in acid and only does so when whatever he wants (internet access usually) becomes the currency.

Having his internet access was a great repercussion when he spent hours upon hours talking/skyping with his internet pals. Low and behold, he has made real-time friends. Something he has never had. The last month or so has been these two boys (young men, really) and Bratboy traipsing back and forth between our house and theirs.

They seem to have no concept of how their escapades at all hours impact our lives. Jess can't sleep during the week (I work a couple hundred miles from home) because the dogs are alerting her to every time they hear a noise. We have tried talking to him about how ecstatic we are that he has friends and that we are trying to teach him about the different expectations now that he has close folks to interact with - not that we want to continue to treat him as a child, but that we are teaching him things that he's just coming to need.

At moments, he seems to get it. Just about a month ago, he spent his first night away from home since he was about 6 (other than with my folks or his father on occasion). Following that, Jess was able to leave him alone overnight and he took amazing care of the dogs. It felt like the anchor of him not being self-sufficient/mature was being lifted! We were overjoyed.

Last week, we attempted Jess coming to Richmond for the night so we could attend the Melissa Etheridge concert. He agreed to take care of the dogs. Good, right? Uh-huh - until Jess found the pool filter system full of airsoft pellets (kinda like plastic BB's). Until I couldnt reach him till THREE THIRTY the next day to find that our giant schnuazer who lives outside most days hadn't been watered because, "Mooooommmmmm - I am tired. It just rained." Don't even get me started on my reaction.

I know to some it sounds simply as if we aren't enforcing boundaries. The issue seems to be that there is no repercussion because there is no currency. He is completely apathetic most days and the internet and his cell phone are of no importance to him now. Money isn't an issue because he has EVERYTHING he could possibly want - and short of taking things away (which he doesn't care about anyway), there isn't a possible solution there either.

My rope is short and I am finding myself about to have a "Mommy meltdown." These usually aren't pretty and do result in what I term as band-aids on an artery. Stops the bleeding for a hot minute and then things are right back to where they were.

Jess does an amazing job of caring for him while I am away and I will own that I do feel a certain amount of Mommy guilt at having someone there doing the hard stuff while I am away for work. I don't want to add to what I already consider a huge undertaking for Jess. I don't want him to get a "pass" on unacceptable behaviors because he is wired differently, yet, I constantly find myself searching for the one thing that will finally click and make sense to him.

Sigh. Anyone have a magic wand? My apologies if this seems too long or too detailed. Once I started, it poured out like a river.

[tapu]

Hi, Christie.

A couple of things came to mind as I was reading your post...

First, I thought, eh, that's what a guy that age is like. But I figure you've got a handle on that and know that this goes beyond.

Another thing that I get out of it is that you do think he's capable of great improvement in this area. So it's not that he's completely limited in maturing this way. It just hasn't happened.

I assume you do the list thing because I can't imagine getting this far without such proven tools.

I wonder if setting him up in more of a space of his own would eventually lead to natural motivation to improve in this area. Like, I don't know your house set-up obviously, but if he has a bed/bath of his own, or even just a separated out bedroom, and you stop all housekeeping service in there.... Well, eventually he runs out of basketball shorts, too.

It might take a while, which could be blech-y. Most older teen guys just have basically bad hygiene so who wants to sit next to them? Eventually though, he may be motivated to clean up.

The other thing that can jumpstart a kid is developing an interest in romance. You may have to use only a band-aid right now.

I don't know if any of this would be helpful, but I really got into your post. Please give word of how it goes. tapu

[RavynTuqiri]

Originally Posted by tapu

Hi, Christie.

A couple of things came to mind as I was reading your post...

First, I thought, eh, that's what a guy that age is like. But I figure you've got a handle on that and know that this goes beyond.

Another thing that I get out of it is that you do think he's capable of great improvement in this area. So it's not that he's completely limited in maturing this way. It just hasn't happened.

I assume you do the list thing because I can't imagine getting this far without such proven tools.

I wonder if setting him up in more of a space of his own would eventually lead to natural motivation to improve in this area. Like, I don't know your house set-up obviously, but if he has a bed/bath of his own, or even just a separated out bedroom, and you stop all housekeeping service in there.... Well, eventually he runs out of basketball shorts, too.

It might take a while, which could be blech-y. Most older teen guys just have basically bad hygiene so who wants to sit next to them? Eventually though, he may be motivated to clean up.

The other thing that can jumpstart a kid is developing an interest in romance. You may have to use only a band-aid right now.

I don't know if any of this would be helpful, but I really got into your post. Please give word of how it goes. tapu

I have a daughter who is now 20....I don't think what you're describing is beyond the realm of normal. My daughter made the choice to move out in lieu of cleaning her room. She moved in with a roommate even more of a slob than she was.

She was much as you describe, very apathetic towards things that most adults would deem basic life skills.

She moved back in 3 months later...a changed child. She cleaned up after herself often without prompting. Living with a slob taught her more than I ever could.

Life is funny like that sometimes

[RavynTuqiri]

You know in reading the thread here about the struggles we face as parents with our children...I am struck by a few observations:

I see a lot of my own child's struggles in your posts...the clean clothes vs dirty clothes, putting toothpaste on the tooth brush, turning off lights, tv's, radio's, when your not in the room...or the house for that matter. Picking up trash, clothes, shoes, or anything else she felt inclined to drop between the front door and her bedroom.

The emotional maturity (or at times, the lack there of).

I do not feel my daughter has an underlying disorder not treated. I think my kid is well...normal. There are those children who mature emotionally more quickly than others. There are those who seem to have "old souls". If some children appear to have old souls, then others surely must have young souls.

My daughter is 20 and I think (I hope) is finally moving in the right direction. Her friends figured certain things out the year or two before...she's now starting to realize and accept certain things about life and is embracing them (finally) and her attitude shift has also impacted her basic life skills (cleaning, laundry, bills, etc).

I think in this society we are sometimes pegged to a defined age that makes an "adult" (18)....yet adulthood and maturity don't often go hand in hand (I have an ex that is a perfect example...hell at times, I can be a good walking example too).

I think some kids just take a little longer to get there and may take a different path at times (these are the paths that gives us parents grey hairs).

[jelli]

Originally Posted by christie0918

I typically don't post a lot about parenting. I don't want others judging my parenting skills/style and I don't want to judge theirs.

However, I find myself on a very uncertain road. I'm not sure I am looking for answers/advice or if I am looking for someone to tell me that its gonna be ok, that they have walked/walking the road or the road scares the bejezus out of them.

Some of you may know that we have a 17 (almost 18) year old son who is lovingly referred to as Bratboy. I am quite open about his being an ASPIE (Asperger's Syndrome) as well as a myriad of other acronyms. I have always prided myself on being able to navigate single-parenthood of a special needs child and really tried not to become a martyr about "Why?". Truth is, I can't imagine wanting my son to be any different than he is - except when I do.

He graduated high-school in May and is one of those kids who is just not ready in terms of maturation to attend college either away from home or close to home without some additional support systems. We are fortunate in that he has been accepted at a school about three hours from us where he will first have a nine week "life skills" course and then go on to begin the culinary arts program. He will live on campus but have more supervision than if he were at a mainstream (lack of better word) college.

The conundrum is that he is a pig and has little to no regard for the impact of his actions on others. It doesn't matter that Jess and I could both have the tidy-fit award on a daily basis. It doesn't seem to matter that we have a freakin' housekeeper and all he has to do is to pick up his crap and she will dust, do the floors and make the bed. It doesn't seem to matter that he has a mountain of dirty laundry and no clean underwear - he wears "basketball" shorts if he has no clean underwear. He deplores showering and personal hygiene as if you are asking him to bathe in acid and only does so when whatever he wants (internet access usually) becomes the currency.

Having his internet access was a great repercussion when he spent hours upon hours talking/skyping with his internet pals. Low and behold, he has made real-time friends. Something he has never had. The last month or so has been these two boys (young men, really) and Bratboy traipsing back and forth between our house and theirs.

They seem to have no concept of how their escapades at all hours impact our lives. Jess can't sleep during the week (I work a couple hundred miles from home) because the dogs are alerting her to every time they hear a noise. We have tried talking to him about how ecstatic we are that he has friends and that we are trying to teach him about the different expectations now that he has close folks to interact with - not that we want to continue to treat him as a child, but that we are teaching him things that he's just coming to need.

At moments, he seems to get it. Just about a month ago, he spent his first night away from home since he was about 6 (other than with my folks or his father on occasion). Following that, Jess was able to leave him alone overnight and he took amazing care of the dogs. It felt like the anchor of him not being self-sufficient/mature was being lifted! We were overjoyed.

Last week, we attempted Jess coming to Richmond for the night so we could attend the Melissa Etheridge concert. He agreed to take care of the dogs. Good, right? Uh-huh - until Jess found the pool filter system full of airsoft pellets (kinda like plastic BB's). Until I couldnt reach him till THREE THIRTY the next day to find that our giant schnuazer who lives outside most days hadn't been watered because, "Mooooommmmmm - I am tired. It just rained." Don't even get me started on my reaction.

I know to some it sounds simply as if we aren't enforcing boundaries. The issue seems to be that there is no repercussion because there is no currency. He is completely apathetic most days and the internet and his cell phone are of no importance to him now. Money isn't an issue because he has EVERYTHING he could possibly want - and short of taking things away (which he doesn't care about anyway), there isn't a possible solution there either.

My rope is short and I am finding myself about to have a "Mommy meltdown." These usually aren't pretty and do result in what I term as band-aids on an artery. Stops the bleeding for a hot minute and then things are right back to where they were.

Jess does an amazing job of caring for him while I am away and I will own that I do feel a certain amount of Mommy guilt at having someone there doing the hard stuff while I am away for work. I don't want to add to what I already consider a huge undertaking for Jess. I don't want him to get a "pass" on unacceptable behaviors because he is wired differently, yet, I constantly find myself searching for the one thing that will finally click and make sense to him.

Sigh. Anyone have a magic wand? My apologies if this seems too long or too detailed. Once I started, it poured out like a river.

Thank you for posting Christie,

I can't even imagine and major props to you and to Jess for continuously and lovingly striving to help "bratboy" become the most independent and integrated young man as he can possibly be. Go easy on yourselves it reads as if you're doing all you can do at this point.

Have you looked into any local or online support groups?

I took just a moment to look around and found one that has some forums:

http://www.aspergersyndrome.org/

As tapu stated, let us know if you find some resolution. I'm sorry I couldn't be much help.

{{{{{Christie & Jess}}}}}

[christie]

Originally Posted by tapu

Hi, Christie.

A couple of things came to mind as I was reading your post...

First, I thought, eh, that's what a guy that age is like. But I figure you've got a handle on that and know that this goes beyond.

Another thing that I get out of it is that you do think he's capable of great improvement in this area. So it's not that he's completely limited in maturing this way. It just hasn't happened.

I assume you do the list thing because I can't imagine getting this far without such proven tools.

I wonder if setting him up in more of a space of his own would eventually lead to natural motivation to improve in this area. Like, I don't know your house set-up obviously, but if he has a bed/bath of his own, or even just a separated out bedroom, and you stop all housekeeping service in there.... Well, eventually he runs out of basketball shorts, too.

It might take a while, which could be blech-y. Most older teen guys just have basically bad hygiene so who wants to sit next to them? Eventually though, he may be motivated to clean up.

The other thing that can jumpstart a kid is developing an interest in romance. You may have to use only a band-aid right now.

I don't know if any of this would be helpful, but I really got into your post. Please give word of how it goes. tapu

Thanks, Tapu for your response.

Unfortunately, he does have his own bedroom and even his own "boy cave" space where his bicycles, "faux" Flex weight machine, the 10 thousand (it seems) airsoft guns and his sword and knife collection lives. It doesn't seem to matter that they are his spaces and that he is responsible for them - he just doesn't care - and I think more than anything, the apathy he has about life just really wears me out.

He is so blessed in comparison to most of the kids in our lil town. Most families in our town have issues with putting food on the table much less to have the abundance of material things we have. It irks me to no end that even when you point out to him his privlige and he acknowledges it, you can still walk into his room and find both of his laptops on the floor, the iPad tossed on the bed amongst just trash, his nasty fingerprints on the flat screen tv - I could just open the window and toss it all in the front yard (except that tidy yard Jess won't let me unless she can pull the Beast (don't ask - its an old truck) under the window so I don't make a mess.

He has a romance of sorts, but manages to shower is she is coming over.

Last night after I made the post, he called to ask if he could spend the night at his friends'. I have told him (and Jess) time and time again that its NOT a good idea to put me on speaker - there is no accounting for what I might say.

Low and behold, I start in on, "What are you and your friends going to do to pay for the $500 pool filter you ruined after you were told not to airsoft in the yard?", quickly followed with, "Are your friends going to help you do your laundry and clean that pig-sty of a room, and while they are at it, are they gonna get in the shower and wash your nasty ass?" (He's almost 18 - saying ass to him isn't the worst thing in the world and sometimes he seems to "hear" me when its not the same Mom speech).

There is a part of me that abhors embarrasing him. Really. There is another part of me that thinks maybe, just maybe, it might make him take action. *shrugs*

I'll keep you posted. I have told him that he might wanna think about getting it together because when Momma comes home this weekend, reality is about to smack him square between the eyes. I'm not sure yet what that entails, but I am certain that its nor going to be pretty.

Originally Posted by jelli

Thank you for posting Christie,

I can't even imagine and major props to you and to Jess for continuously and lovingly striving to help "bratboy" become the most independent and integrated young man as he can possibly be. Go easy on yourselves it reads as if you're doing all you can do at this point.

Have you looked into any local or online support groups?

I took just a moment to look around and found one that has some forums:

http://www.aspergersyndrome.org/

As tapu stated, let us know if you find some resolution. I'm sorry I couldn't be much help.

{{{{{Christie & Jess}}}}}

Jelli -

Thanks for your response.

The unfortunate part of support groups, for me, has always been I have little patience for those who seem to get wrapped up in their issues, wearing them as a blanket to keep them warm - I tried an autism group when he was first diagnosed at 2.5 years and found that most times, it was just a lot of venting and not a lot of practical solutions. I feel like Jess and I spend enough energy talking about it and I just don't want to sacrifice any more of the precious time we have together to "boy issues."

I'm not dismissing anything that you or Tapu offered - really. You have no idea that just someone else heard me means so very much and I appreciate it. I know Jess does too.

Thanks again to you both -

Christie

[tapu]

Hey, does he have a therapist or a life coach or some kind of social worker? His having one might take some of the stress off you guys. But also, what about a family counselor. Confront him with the problems in front of someone else. A therapist might have good ideas for "enforcement" or "pay-off" or whatever....

If you've already tried that, might be time to try different one. (I like "mixing it up" with therapists every few years. It's all so different.)

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by christie0918

you can still walk into his room and find both of his laptops on the floor, the iPad tossed on the bed amongst just trash, his nasty fingerprints on the flat screen tv

What about taking all of these things away from him? I realize the internet stuff isn't as important as it used to be, but maybe having simple TV is enough of a perk for him......or gaming on the computers.

I'm sorry for the frustration. I do hope it gets better soon. Just so you know... I really do "get" the apathy thing. We've had our own trials over here.

[jelli]

Originally Posted by christie0918

Jelli -

Thanks for your response.

The unfortunate part of support groups, for me, has always been I have little patience for those who seem to get wrapped up in their issues, wearing them as a blanket to keep them warm - I tried an autism group when he was first diagnosed at 2.5 years and found that most times, it was just a lot of venting and not a lot of practical solutions. I feel like Jess and I spend enough energy talking about it and I just don't want to sacrifice any more of the precious time we have together to "boy issues."

I'm not dismissing anything that you or Tapu offered - really. You have no idea that just someone else heard me means so very much and I appreciate it. I know Jess does too.

Thanks again to you both -

Christie

I understand. One can get tired of presenting problems and not having any useful feedback and/or possible solutions.

With that being said, I like the idea of having him earn things back. Is this a reasonable direction to try? We were having trouble with our daughter and the counselor at one point suggested if it got bad enough to take everything from her room including her door. Give her choices to earn back her rights/things/etc. By choices she meant give her 2 choices that you can live with and let her choose one of those. You get what you want and they "think" they're somewhat in control.

Set up a barter system of sorts. can also use a timer so they can watch/hear when the time is about to be up so they can perhaps work a bit faster. Example: 20 minutes of cleaning could result in 20 minutes of X. If your son wants friends or gf to come over then what is that worth to him? What about racing him to get it done? "I bet I can get the laundry all folded before you take a shower." or perhaps going the opposite of calling him out and using lots of praise and rewards. Or a combination of these. Whatever you choose, be prepared to follow through though.

I know you've probably tried so many things, but I feel for you both and am scratching at what ever might work.

Stay strong together.