The Ethics of Closets and Outings

[julieisafemme]

I have a huge problem with the word authenticity in these discussions. Who is to say if someone is living authentically? Really!

I also see this issue as far as gender and transition outing. That has been a very unpleasant experience for Greyson and I. Is a transman or woman not living authentically if they do not disclose their transition?

Unless someone is an elected official who is voting to deny me civil rights or protections they should not be outed. Period.

[SuperFemme]

I use the word "authentic" in these discussions only in relation to self.
It is not my place (or anyones for that matter) to decide what is or is not authentic for another human being.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I use the word "authentic" in these discussions only in relation to self.
It is not my place (or anyones for that matter) to decide what is or is not authentic for another human being.

I am not referring to this discussion here. Just in general. There was a big discussion on FB one time and Queen Latifah came up as not living authentically. This was specifically about public figures and celebrities. The idea was that it is ok to out celebrities or public figures. That they owe the queer community that for being high profile. I don't agree with that. Unless they are elected officials.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I am not referring to this discussion here. Just in general. There was a big discussion on FB one time and Queen Latifah came up as not living authentically. This was specifically about public figures and celebrities. The idea was that it is ok to out celebrities or public figures. That they owe the queer community that for being high profile. I don't agree with that. Unless they are elected officials.

oh i see.
and i agree.

i'm not even mad at oprah and gayle. (kidding, kidding)

[Nat]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I am not referring to this discussion here. Just in general. There was a big discussion on FB one time and Queen Latifah came up as not living authentically. This was specifically about public figures and celebrities. The idea was that it is ok to out celebrities or public figures. That they owe the queer community that for being high profile. I don't agree with that. Unless they are elected officials.

and you see, this might be an example of where my question stems from. Is it wrong to bring up people like Queen Latifah in public forums? She is living with a woman, has been photographed somewhat intimately with said woman, but she herself refuses to talk about her orientation. Is it respectful for us to bring her up here, on a queer forum in a thread about closets and outings, or is it violative to do so?

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Nat

and you see, this might be an example of where my question stems from. Is it wrong to bring up people like Queen Latifah in public forums? She is living with a woman, has been photographed somewhat intimately with said woman, but she herself refuses to talk about her orientation. Is it respectful for us to bring her up here, on a queer forum in a thread about closets and outings, or is it violative to do so?

It is still Queen Latifah's choice to discuss her sexual orientation. Whether we discuss it or not isn't the issue, lots of folks are gonna talk because of those pictures. Did she give up her rights to her image? I doubt it, but she was seen in public, so in a since she outed herself. That was her decision, not us in her bedroom asking her. Folks are gonna gossip about any number of celeb d' jour. Is it really our business, I say no, 'cause I don't really give a f*. It's her life.

[Boots13]

What are your beliefs regarding the ethics of:

1. Living in the closet

A. Do you feel there are ethical concerns with an individual's choice to live in or out of the closet? If so, what are they? Are there exceptions?
Is it moral or ethical for me to express an opinion about somebody elses decision to be closeted? Barring public, political or religious figures using their position of power to sway public opinion , I dont think its my business.

B. Are there times when a person has a moral / ethical obligation to live in or out of the closet? If so, what times?
As long as we have DADT, I will never question an individuals decision to live a closeted lifestyle.

2. Outing others

A. Are there times when you think it's ethically okay to out a person? If so, when? Are there exceptions?
If a person of power or influence has the audacity to ostracize my (our?) lifestyles, I'd love to see a public outing on that individual. The whole "glass house" thing.
I know, I'm a vengeful SOB, arent I!

B. How careful are you in avoiding accidentally outing a another person?
Everyone I know is "out" and I've been out since high school so I dont think that outing someone is even on my radar. I would respect the wishes of a friend who was closeted, though difficulty would arise because I am not closeted and my family, friends and co-workers all know me.

C. Do you feel there are ethical concerns involved with speculating with others about a person's orientation? If so, what are they?
I guess theres a difference between "Isnt he fabulous?!"
and "what a flamer!" , but really, what does it matter?
I'm not sleeping with that individual, and sexuality or orientation isnt primary on my radar.
I'm more of a "what a cool person" rather than
" I wonder if they're queer"

D. Do you feel there are ethical concerns about a person asking others to keep her/hir/hym/him in the closet? If so, what are they?
I would respect the request, but that would sadly limit my interaction with my closeted friend, only because everyone who knows me, knows my orientation.

[waxnrope]

Originally Posted by Nat

and you see, this might be an example of where my question stems from. Is it wrong to bring up people like Queen Latifah in public forums? She is living with a woman, has been photographed somewhat intimately with said woman, but she herself refuses to talk about her orientation. Is it respectful for us to bring her up here, on a queer forum in a thread about closets and outings, or is it violative to do so?

I don't think that you understand about the multiple communities someone like Latifa might belong. As a POC, as a respected musician and actor who owes her success because of her gift and primarily because of the black community. The latter being, in general, extremely homophobic. In the traditional black church, this homophobia is doubly so. I could write a treatise on the relationship/s between the traditional black church's stance on homophobia (everyone knows the choir director is ... and the preacher condemns homosexuals, etc) and the rise of HIV infection in African Americans. Including some women who Chase these gay men. But there I go ... sorry. What I'm trying to say about Latifa is that her situation is complex. You may, by insisting that she discuss, or otherwise bring increasing attention to her, bring about het dismissal from her chosen community/ies. No matter how you or I may consider this as inauthentic, we are not the ones to suffer being ousted from the beloved community. It is surely her decision, AND that of her partner. You (general you) have no idea what she faces.

If her only choice was to stay closeted versus joining the planet, and given some lack of thought expressed here with respect to race, I'd slam that closet door, and lock her ass in there. Just saying...

[Nat]

Originally Posted by waxnrope

I don't think that you understand about the multiple communities someone like Latifa might belong. As a POC, as a respected musician and actor who owes her success because of her gift and primarily because of the black community. The latter being, in general, extremely homophobic. In the traditional black church, this homophobia is doubly so. I could write a treatise on the relationship/s between the traditional black church's stance on homophobia (everyone knows the choir director is ... and the preacher condemns homosexuals, etc) and the rise of HIV infection in African Americans. Including some women who Chase these gay men. But there I go ... sorry. What I'm trying to say about Latifa is that her situation is complex. You may, by insisting that she discuss, or otherwise bring increasing attention to her, bring about het dismissal from her chosen community/ies. No matter how you or I may consider this as inauthentic, we are not the ones to suffer being ousted from the beloved community. It is surely her decision, AND that of her partner. You (general you) have no idea what she faces.

If her only choice was to stay closeted versus joining the planet, and given some lack of thought expressed here with respect to race, I'd slam that closet door, and lock her ass in there. Just saying...

I most definitely do not understand experientially what it would be like to be in her shoes. I can try to figure it out in my head, but I can't know what it's like. Thanks for bringing up some of the other factors she faces.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by waxnrope

I don't think that you understand about the multiple communities someone like Latifa might belong. As a POC, as a respected musician and actor who owes her success because of her gift and primarily because of the black community. The latter being, in general, extremely homophobic. In the traditional black church, this homophobia is doubly so. I could write a treatise on the relationship/s between the traditional black church's stance on homophobia (everyone knows the choir director is ... and the preacher condemns homosexuals, etc) and the rise of HIV infection in African Americans. Including some women who Chase these gay men. But there I go ... sorry. What I'm trying to say about Latifa is that her situation is complex. You may, by insisting that she discuss, or otherwise bring increasing attention to her, bring about het dismissal from her chosen community/ies. No matter how you or I may consider this as inauthentic, we are not the ones to suffer being ousted from the beloved community. It is surely her decision, AND that of her partner. You (general you) have no idea what she faces.

If her only choice was to stay closeted versus joining the planet, and given some lack of thought expressed here with respect to race, I'd slam that closet door, and lock her ass in there. Just saying...

This is exactly what was brought up in the discussion I mentioned. Thank you for adding that.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I have a huge problem with the word authenticity in these discussions. Who is to say if someone is living authentically? Really!

I also see this issue as far as gender and transition outing. That has been a very unpleasant experience for Greyson and I. Is a transman or woman not living authentically if they do not disclose their transition?

Unless someone is an elected official who is voting to deny me civil rights or protections they should not be outed. Period.

I almost said in the first post that this thread was not intended to discuss gender but rather to discuss orientation - but then I felt that would limit the conversation overly much. So I'm wondering - since you brought up gender outing - do you see a difference between gender outing and orientation outing?

[Maria]

Originally Posted by Nat

I almost said in the first post that this thread was not intended to discuss gender but rather to discuss orientation - but then I felt that would limit the conversation overly much. So I'm wondering - since you brought up gender outing - do you see a difference between gender outing and orientation outing?

I have mixed feelings about orientation outing and pretty much agree with Toughy in that respect. With regard to gender outing, however, I strongly believe it is never my place to do so.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Nat

I almost said in the first post that this thread was not intended to discuss gender but rather to discuss orientation - but then I felt that would limit the conversation overly much. So I'm wondering - since you brought up gender outing - do you see a difference between gender outing and orientation outing?

Yes I do from my own experience. The people in my life have had a far easier time dealing with my coming out about my orientation rather than the gender of my partner. He was outed by others. It was unpleasant.

I guess in my experience being queer is more accepted than being transgendered.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Yes I do from my own experience. The people in my life have had a far easier time dealing with my coming out about my orientation rather than the gender of my partner. He was outed by others. It was unpleasant.

I guess in my experience being queer is more accepted than being transgendered.

For those of you that may be interested, it was never my intention to stay in the closet permanently regarding my gender. A mean spirited person that believed his outing me would bring shame and harm to myself and Julie began a campaign of telling all of their mutual friends, family, and community about my Trans status. He was wrong to believe I hold any shame about who I am. I have been out, always. However, in meeting my gf's family and friends who are primarily heterosexual, middle class, white, and "Clueless Berkeley Liberals," my preference was to tell them about my gender when I chose to tell them. Alas, cheap gossip was the mode of my gender "outing."