Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Jo, I am surprised there as been no response to this post. I have been an out Butch for 38 years. Maybe this is in part why I cannot easily trade in my identity because I have "transitioned." Where and when I came out as a teenager may have been much more of an influence on my internal process of how I saw myself in gender and my sexual orientation. From my small corner of the world, "Butches" were not considered to be like other "women." We did not go about in our lives proclaiming to be "lesbians." In fact "lesbians" did not see us as part of "the community." Much has changed now. Previously in my thinking it was a given that I as a Butch was not "woman" in the same way as my identical twin sister, my mother or other women.

Very briefly in my personal history I did finally use the term "lesbian" to identify myself in a photography showing where my image was to be represented with many other Latinos/Latinas. Back then I wanted the heterosexual, lesbian and gay middle class that would primarily be viewing this show to have no doubt that I was indeed of the queer variety. I did not have the vocabulary nor knowledge that I have today about gender and sexuality.

For me, and only for me, Transmasculine Butch and Transman are very much the same. For me to clarify I am a "Transman" denotes, I was not born a cisgendered male. Transitioning has led me to greater self examination that I did not do in depth before I started the transition process. I have given much thought and taken action regarding my own and others, sexism, misogyny, racism and what it means to be a feminist.

Greyson, Soon's question was not ignored. I answered her privately. I myself am a lesbian and butch and have not felt lesbians ostracizing me or feeling that I was not a woman or that I was not part of the lesbian community. So our perspective and experience is different.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Greyson, Soon's question was not ignored. I answered her privately. I myself am a lesbian and butch and have not felt lesbians ostracizing me or feeling that I was not a woman or that I was not part of the lesbian community. So our perspective and experience is different.

Bully, I really was not being specific to you. I know our experiences are and have been different and I also think the both of us see ourselves as part of this community and can live with differences. I was not trying to single you out.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Bully, I really was not being specific to you. I know our experiences are and have been different and I also think the both of us see ourselves as part of this community and can live with differences. I was not trying to single you out.

Yes, I realize that.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Greyson, Soon's question was not ignored. I answered her privately. I myself am a lesbian and butch and have not felt lesbians ostracizing me or feeling that I was not a woman or that I was not part of the lesbian community. So our perspective and experience is different.

Bully, my experience is very different than what is often (not always) presented here and in the real-time B-F/Tg/I/multi-sexuality based community I live in. This has become one of the reasons I am not posting as much in threads like this anymore. Also, many folks here are trying to figure out their gender variables and struggling deeply. I have been thinking that I'd rather see these members be able to find their path without so much of the divisive conversations we can get into. PM messages work well if we want to really talk on a more personal basis.

And sure, as a lesbian, I tire of the anti-lesbian, or as aptly described in the TOS, lesbian-phobic rhetoric that I often see here. Although, with the inclusion of lesbian-phobia in the TOS, I view the admin as top notch in recognizing the problem for what it is- bigotry about a sexual minority. Kudos to the admin! Yes, I have experienced butch-phobia and seen transphobia as well as femme-phobia from separatist lesbians. However, they do not represent the all lesbians and certainly not the majority.

In some ways, I feel like the question posed to (only) female-identified butches about our views on butch being used by some of the gender identifications here that claim masculine, male, or man is a form of baiting. We don't need any more division among us. And I do use us as inclusive. As I stated, there are many fully transitioned transmen that have a deep and long history of butch identity and I just don't see how that can be wiped-out simply due to transitioning. Butch is part of the narrative we all have experience with as femme (considering what many femmes get blasted with if they are involved with a TG person).

Sometimes, I honestly do not understand why there is so much division among us on websites like this. This is just not my real-time experience.

I will welcome the day when butch is not discussed in terms of Trans or visa versa and female is not compared to male in the same ways it has been for centuries. We (all of us) have the opportunity to transcend patriarchal bigotry right in front of us. I hope we seize this opportunity and write a very different history along with gender presentations and interaction. Historically, I see no better time to banish gender myths and sexism. But, we have to take the lead and get un-stuck.

Personally, I accept anyone's claim of butch.

[BullDog]

AtLast, I didn't find the question being posed to be baiting at all, especially taking into consideration who asked it. The reason I answered privately is because it's very obvious that my participation is not welcomed by some on this thread.

I responded to Greyson's post yesterday only because I didn't want there to be an impression that Soon's question was being ignored and my experience is very much indeed different than his.

I do agree with you that my experience of butch in the real world is very different than what I find online.

Now back to your male comparisons without any further intrusions from me.

[Corkey]

Ok so back on track guys, any thing to add?

[Cowboi]

I would like to offer an apology to anyone that was offended by the medical terms I posted this morning. It was not my intent to mean anything rude or hateful.

I of all people do not have issues with how one id's. I do feel like we all at some point and time we have all traveled some of the same roads during our journeys.

Earlier in the day I had a conversation about the same words. Most people use the wrong term anyway.
The defenitions were straight from one of my medical books from school.


Again my apologies.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Cowboi

I would like to offer an apology to anyone that was offended by the medical terms I posted this morning. It was not my intent to mean anything rude or hateful.

I of all people do not have issues with how one id's. I do feel like we all at some point and time we have all traveled some of the same roads during our journeys.

Earlier in the day I had a conversation about the same words. Most people use the wrong term anyway.
The definitions were straight from one of my medical books from school.


Again my apologies.

I know you weren't trying to being offensive, the Intersexed folks who I know who have spoken out do not use those medical definitions to describe themselves, for they have said they are not deformed or an abnormality. We have to remember there are people behind these definitions and I will go with what they prefer to be called, Intersexed. Which again isn't the topic of this thread, but thank you for the apology.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by BullDog

AtLast, I didn't find the question being posed to be baiting at all, especially taking into consideration who asked it. The reason I answered privately is because it's very obvious that my participation is not welcomed by some on this thread.

I responded to Greyson's post yesterday only because I didn't want there to be an impression that Soon's question was being ignored and my experience is very much indeed different than his.

I do agree with you that my experience of butch in the real world is very different than what I find online.

Now back to your male comparisons without any further intrusions from me.

Bully, I was just pointing out a personal observation. I own personal sensitivies just simply as a human being. I know grey well and no, my comment was not any kind of swipe at him. In fact, he and many transmasculine butches get shit for using butch while engaging in what is considered transitioning to men kinds of procedures and treatments. Maybe my wording was not as clear as posible, but it wasn't a swipe, but I know baiting does happen in online threads on every website I have become a member of. To every identification that any person could have. Really counter-productive. I want more conversation that helps us build community and is supportive to all.

[Soon]

I explained where the origin of my question came from and don't appreciate, At Last, your belief that I was or may be baiting anyone.

After Bully PM'd me with her response, I let it go b/c I realized that this was the wrong thread/venue to ask those who would be able to respond; I apologize for wanting opinions from those to whom this thread was not designed.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

I explained where the origin of my question came from and don't appreciate, At Last, your belief that I was baiting anyone.

After Bully PM'd me with her response, I let it go b/c I realized that this was the wrong thread/venue to ask those who would be able to respond; I apologize for wanting opinions from those to whom this thread was not designed.

My post was in response to Greyson, actually. And I explained it and also said I could have used other terms. I received a positive rep from him regarding the post. I also know him well enough in real-time to know that if he had a problem with anything, he would let me know, with honor, integrity and dignity. We would have a work thru things via goodwill.

The question grey posed was directed at butches like me! Feel free to PM me with anything. This is just going to spin off into exactly the kind of nonsense that hurts all of us. I don't want to have anything to do with that. I'm tired of the hurt these discussions can cause simply due to jumping to conclusions as opposed to asking for clarification.

I'm confused about something. If you do not want post from non-trans persons in this zone, why have questions posed to and about us? Since other female-identified butches are posting here, I thought I was invited to post as a member of this site and community as the identification I hold.

I will not continue to read the thread, or post in it.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

I explained where the origin of my question came from and don't appreciate, At Last, your belief that I was or may be baiting anyone.

After Bully PM'd me with her response, I let it go b/c I realized that this was the wrong thread/venue to ask those who would be able to respond; I apologize for wanting opinions from those to whom this thread was not designed.

I have had the pleasure of meeting you face to face and getting to know you a bit. My experience of you is that you are an intelligent, curious, forthright, fun person that values integrity and loathes hypocrisy. None of us on this site can 100 % of the time express, articulate what is going through our thoughts without unknowingly offending some at times. I know you and do not believe you were "baiting." I saw you to be asking a very straight forward question in your tireless efforts to move our entire LGBTQI community forward. No worries from me. Let's not get bogged downed in the muck and our efforts off the overall goal/s of the community........EQUALITY.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Greyson

I have had the pleasure of meeting you face to face and getting to know you a bit. My experience of you is that you are an intelligent, curious, forthright, fun person that values integrity and loathes hypocrasy. None of us on this site can 100 % of the time express, articulate what is going through our thoughts without unknowingly offending some at times. I know you and do not believe you were "baiting." I saw you to be asking a very straight forward question in your tireless efforts to move our entire LGBTQI community forward. No worries from me. Let's not get bogged downed in the muck and our efforts off the overall goal/s of the community........EQUALITY.

Wow--thanks so much, Greyson!

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Greyson

I have had the pleasure of meeting you face to face and getting to know you a bit. My experience of you is that you are an intelligent, curious, forthright, fun person that values integrity and loathes hypocrisy. None of us on this site can 100 % of the time express, articulate what is going through our thoughts without unknowingly offending some at times. I know you and do not believe you were "baiting." I saw you to be asking a very straight forward question in your tireless efforts to move our entire LGBTQI community forward. No worries from me. Let's not get bogged downed in the muck and our efforts off the overall goal/s of the community........EQUALITY.

i second this.