Swedish Parents Keep 2-year-old's Gender Secret

[Bit]

That's interesting about the twins, Sue. We have friends who have a pair of seven year old girls--one always dressed to the nines even in play clothes, and one always in jeans and a t-shirt; one with her hair always curled or styled, one with straight hair she does nothing with. If they were seventeen instead of seven, I swear one would always be wearing make-up and the other, nevereverever, lol...

The sad thing is that one of them DOES get flack from her folks.... but it isn't the boyish looking one, oh no--it's the young glamour girl!! Surprised me a lot. They backed off some after I stood up for her.

[ruthie14]

The sad thing is that one of them DOES get flack from her folks.... but it isn't the boyish looking one, oh no--it's the young glamour girl!! Surprised me a lot. They backed off some after I stood up for her.


Good for you bit... you would be surprised (or maybe not) I was... how much flack I get from other lesbians. Strange isn't it. I love my nail polish and my sundresses and I get told I can't tell you how many times, that I should just "give up that butch femme thing if I ever want to find a woman". REALLY??

Sorry to get off topic... struck a chord... I digress

[Bit]

Well actually, Ruthie, I was a very girly person early on, and ran smack into what I call the Birkenstock Years, when Lesbians turned en masse against everything patriarchal... so being ridiculed for being "too feminine" "too girly" and "buying into the patriarchy" are all part of my life too.

What was really ironic for my young friend is that her parents are a heterosexual couple. I just never expected that reaction from them, yanno? I MOST especially didn't expect it from anyone who would name her children variations on a name that translates as "good girl" lol.... "here, let me give you this incredibly gendered name which is LOADED with societal expectations... but hey there, don't you live up to it!" lol...

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Bit

.... "here, let me give you this incredibly gendered name which is LOADED with societal expectations... but hey there, don't you live up to it!" lol...

I discussed this with Stearns the other day.

How do people feel about naming their children with really gendered names when, as members of this community, we know that some went through their lives loathing the names they were assigned at birth?

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Julie,

I am not avoiding answering the question. I had started writing a response but I wasn't satisfied with it, so I am sitting on it for awhile.

As far as the poll, I voted *agree*--will elaborate later.

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Thanks to all who voted or responded. I find it very interesting to mull over the various implications of their decision.

[Nawen]

I had a long post thought out last evening, but it kinda disappeared in the early morning , so I'll keep it short.

It seems that Pinker presumes that the child is being raised sexless, while it seems to me it is only being raised genderless.
I got from this story that the parents are open with their child as far as its sex is concerned.
They are giving it options, not pushing him into dresses or pants but offering both.
They have also said that they will disclose sex when Pop wants to. So if Pop, at 6, decides to wear dresses and is a male... they didn't push him for 6 important years into something he doesn't want. If Pop chooses clothes that fit into its sex+gender stereotype, fine, too. (+ Pop's a child - s/he doesn't know that we, adults, see this cut of fabric as feminine, and this, with a stitch between legs, as masculine.)

I think it's important to take some more things into account.
- This is Sweden.
(Not necessarily this or that, just... different. It's interesting for me to see how their experts are either pro or 'not sure'.)
- This is a new generation.

The David/Brenda case.
For me, it doesn't stand. The comparison might, the likening doesn't.
The child's sex was taken from him and he was made to live as opposite.
Pop: the sex is Pop's and Pop is given a choice, presented both. Or none, too, I guess.

I don't think Pop's intersexed, because the parents said they'll do the same with the second child.
Doing the same to the second if they were just protecting the first would seem too much, no?
I don't know what the chances are for two children to be both born intersexed.

I think it's also important to view some things like this:
- Pop may be special, later in life, but maybe not because Pop was given a choice, but because others weren't. (I can't explain it much better at this time, but I think about it like this: some kid, Alex, is not weird because s/he has a dog, but because all the other kids in the neighbourhood have cats. There's nothing wrong with having a dog per se and to think there is, just because Alex will feel 'out', isn't right. It's not about the dog, it's about groups.)
- If Pop grows up to be a sad person, it shouldn't be blamed on this.
- If Pop grows up to be a happy person, it shouldn't be blamed on this. (And I think the former is more likely to garner attention and blaming, unfortunately. In both cases it should be examined what part of Pop's happiness is linked to this and just that part be blamed on it.)

This is, of course, just my take on things.

Thank you, Nat, for putting this story up, and HowSoonIsNow for making it into a topic. I really enjoyed reading all these responses in both threads .

Edit: Well, not so short in the end, it seems .

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Nawen

I don't think Pop's intersexed, because the parents said they'll do the same with the second child.
Doing the same to the second if they were just protecting the first would seem too much, no?

Hi, Nawen!

I think it's absolutely necessary to do it with both children in order to protect Pop (if that's what they're doing; it's just my supposition) because if they treat the second child differently, Pop will suddenly stand out like a sore thumb inside the family. If the parents are taking the tack that gender is a decision made for adulthood, and then they gender the second child at birth, Pop will suddenly know there's something wrong with Pop, yanno? Not only that, neighbors, curious onlookers, and the media will be on it like bees on honey, saying "what's wrong with Pop? There must be something wrong"--so there would go all protection for Pop right out the window.

[morningstar55]

Originally Posted by ruthie14

The sad thing is that one of them DOES get flack from her folks.... but it isn't the boyish looking one, oh no--it's the young glamour girl!! Surprised me a lot. They backed off some after I stood up for her.


Good for you bit... you would be surprised (or maybe not) I was... how much flack I get from other lesbians. Strange isn't it. I love my nail polish and my sundresses and I get told I can't tell you how many times, that I should just "give up that butch femme thing if I ever want to find a woman". REALLY??

Sorry to get off topic... struck a chord... I digress

.. if i had a nickel for everytime i heard that same thing from my lesbian and str9 friends.... ooYY......
great story and topic.. How.

[Sachita]

perhaps in a perfect world.

I disagree. rather then deny any gender identity, homeschool and teach better values based on freedom from labels and social structures. If I had a child today I would home school and carefully be involved. Yesterday a friend and mother said if she were a new mother today she would be a better mother, knowing more. I agree because I've journeyed this and know. you can teach better. Teach them dont confuse them and make them stand out oddly.

very interesting tho