Negotiating Silence

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Linus

Something that just popped into my head: if someone responds to a post and only addresses one point, totally ignoring the other points of the post that they are responding to and focuses on that one point, is that silencing?

It's a challenge, IMO, because sometimes there isn't a need to respond to all points and sometimes it's a specific point that you want to address or feel you can offer an opinion/view on. But by doing the latter, I wonder if that feels like or accomplishes a silencing behaviour whether we intend to or not.


** the irony of this post doesn't escape me **

Are you speaking to the fact that I didn't answer you point by point?
Am I being silencing by not doing so? Or are you being silencing by expecting me to?

I, like many others on this site am differently abled. With a traumatic brain injury it is super hard for me to form cognitive thoughts on more than one thing at a time. I couldn't form an appropriate response to you feeling unwelcome because you are Trans or Canadian or what have you. I can speculate, but I don't know how that feels. I don't want to cheerlead so much as to learn. I thought I acknowledged with 'great points" because they ARE great points.

Part of the reason I started this thread is that I want to learn. So my question above comes from an open minded teachable headspace.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Are you speaking to the fact that I didn't answer you point by point?
Am I being silencing by not doing so? Or are you being silencing by expecting me to?

Heh.. no. It's because I didn't respond to all your points in the OP and also didn't address others completely either. Hence, the irony. I think, however, you've done a great job at trying to answer and address points as they come into play. Which, IMO, everyone feel like they have a part in this, are valued for their opinion and are not silenced.

I, like many others on this site am differently abled. With a traumatic brain injury it is super hard for me to form cognitive thoughts on more than one thing at a time. I couldn't form an appropriate response to you feeling unwelcome because you are Trans or Canadian or what have you. I can speculate, but I don't know how that feels. I don't want to cheerlead so much as to learn. I thought I acknowledged with 'great points" because they ARE great points.

Totally understand and completely get. This is much like me not understanding what it's like to live with being differently abled and others not being aware of the challenges that are added on with that, especially one that doesn't necessarily appear obvious.

Please be assured it wasn't directed at you but rather something that I remember from a previous discussion on a similar topic on an online game (since the premise of the game involved online discussion and politics, silencing was a common activity although it wasn't called silencing) and I've seen elsewhere online. One of the things I've noticed is that when this is done, sometimes two people -- both who have the same view but present it differently -- ended up arguing against each other over the smallest point (e.g., honor vs honour).

Part of the reason I started this thread is that I want to learn. So my question above comes from an open minded teachable headspace.

Always a good thing.

[SuperFemme]

Ok. Now I'd like to add something else to the mix.

What about Silencing through gossip? Shunning. Labeling of a person as a slut, a stalker, a gold digger or obsessed?

This is something we can all combat. Sending a pm to another member devaluing another member? It has been my experience that nobody ever goes to the person being shredded and *asks* before perpetuationg the bullshit.

Apretty spoke of a true imbalance of power. I think there is an imbalance of power in these kinds of situations. The most painful thing for me has been seeing a person in authority (or perceived authority) rip a member in public. For speaking a truth. For having a dissenting opinion. It sets an ugly stage.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

What about Silencing through gossip? Shunning. Labeling of a person as a slut, a stalker, a gold digger or obsessed?

This is something we can all combat. Sending a pm to another member devaluing another member? It has been my experience that nobody ever goes to the person being shredded and *asks* before perpetuationg the bullshit.

Apretty spoke of a true imbalance of power. I think there is an imbalance of power in these kinds of situations. The most painful thing for me has been seeing a person in authority (or perceived authority) rip a member in public. For speaking a truth. For having a dissenting opinion. It sets an ugly stage.

I think Silencing is a form of shunning/ostracizing. We will not all get along. That's a fact, Jack. But we can behave in socially acceptable ways towards one another.

However, then we have to determine what is "socially acceptable."

In some groups, it is socially acceptable to send PM's or talk about someone behind their back.

I've done this to you, SuperFemme. I am using this example because you and I discussed this. We repaired what I allowed to happen by listening to and by perpetuating some rather unpleasant gossip. It is one of the reasons I try my best not to say anything behind someone's back that I would not say to their face. It's an important thing in my life.

I have been silenced by others telling me that my way of communicating in written form is demeaning or belittling. I do have a dogmatic way of communicating. I do not like that I have hurt people unintentionally. However, I know for a fact that I have hurt people intentionally. Not proud of that but I will also not allow anyone to use that as a weapon to silence me.

I've set up some pretty firm boundaries about avoiding those who do gossip in mean ways. I have to quantify that with "in mean ways" because if gossip is talking about someone, then I gossip a lot. I talk about Pixiestars and how much I enjoy her company. I mention Shariberry's shopping abilities. I am a horrible gossip about Ashton's tour guide skills. Or tell someone that they must buy Diva's CD because it is most excellent. Or read any of the 9Word poets' work. ETC.

If gossip is mean-spirited, then I will self-correct myself. I will say out loud that I do not want to talk about someone behind their back and correct that behaviour. If I do not want to be around gossips, I can't be one, right? And Gods know, I've been one!

I do see gossip as Silencing. And again, I am sorry for what I did to you rather than go directly to you.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Arwen

I think Silencing is a form of shunning/ostracizing. We will not all get along. That's a fact, Jack. But we can behave in socially acceptable ways towards one another.

However, then we have to determine what is "socially acceptable."

In some groups, it is socially acceptable to send PM's or talk about someone behind their back.

I've done this to you, SuperFemme. I am using this example because you and I discussed this. We repaired what I allowed to happen by listening to and by perpetuating some rather unpleasant gossip. It is one of the reasons I try my best not to say anything behind someone's back that I would not say to their face. It's an important thing in my life.

I have been silenced by others telling me that my way of communicating in written form is demeaning or belittling. I do have a dogmatic way of communicating. I do not like that I have hurt people unintentionally. However, I know for a fact that I have hurt people intentionally. Not proud of that but I will also not allow anyone to use that as a weapon to silence me.

I've set up some pretty firm boundaries about avoiding those who do gossip in mean ways. I have to quantify that with "in mean ways" because if gossip is talking about someone, then I gossip a lot. I talk about Pixiestars and how much I enjoy her company. I mention Shariberry's shopping abilities. I am a horrible gossip about Ashton's tour guide skills. Or tell someone that they must buy Diva's CD because it is most excellent. Or read any of the 9Word poets' work. ETC.

If gossip is mean-spirited, then I will self-correct myself. I will say out loud that I do not want to talk about someone behind their back and correct that behaviour. If I do not want to be around gossips, I can't be one, right? And Gods know, I've been one!

I do see gossip as Silencing. And again, I am sorry for what I did to you rather than go directly to you.

, on the other hand, some people would way rather you (not you personally, the collective you) talked behind their backs than to their faces....In my part of the country it is not polite to say things to pople's faces and it freaks us out when someone does.

It really is difficult sometimes with all our cultural differences for us to communicate at all. Its a miracle that we do as well as we do.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

, on the other hand, some people would way rather you (not you personally, the collective you) talked behind their backs than to their faces....In my part of the country it is not polite to say things to pople's faces and it freaks us out when someone does.

It really is difficult sometimes with all our cultural differences for us to communicate at all. Its a miracle that we do as well as we do.

I am so Southern it hurts sometimes. I grew up in this culture of talking behing others' backs. I do not condone it. I have seen the damage it does. I have felt the damage. I understand what you are saying. I really do.

However, there are some traditions that need to be changed. If I would not say it to your face, I am re-teaching myself how to not say it at all. I'm thumperizing my life in that way because it is important to me personally.

I am giving up my right-by-Southern ability to say, "Did you see that dress Apocalipstic wore to the party? Bless her heart, it wasn't her best color." And all other variations of that type of talk. I am on a mission in my own life to eradicate it from all corners of my communication. If I wouldn't tell Jackhammer she is an ass to her face, then I won't do it behind her back. (NOTE: both examples are pure fiction! )

This really isn't about silencing so I'll (grin) silence myself on this. It's my own personal soapbox on something I do that I detest.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Arwen

I am so Southern it hurts sometimes. I grew up in this culture of talking behing others' backs. I do not condone it. I have seen the damage it does. I have felt the damage. I understand what you are saying. I really do.

However, there are some traditions that need to be changed. If I would not say it to your face, I am re-teaching myself how to not say it at all. I'm thumperizing my life in that way because it is important to me personally.

I am giving up my right-by-Southern ability to say, "Did you see that dress Apocalipstic wore to the party? Bless her heart, it wasn't her best color." And all other variations of that type of talk. I am on a mission in my own life to eradicate it from all corners of my communication. If I wouldn't tell Jackhammer she is an ass to her face, then I won't do it behind her back. (NOTE: both examples are pure fiction! )

This really isn't about silencing so I'll (grin) silence myself on this. It's my own personal soapbox on something I do that I detest.

I totally hear what you are saying, I am also working to practice kindness .

I will say that if someone does not like something about me, I would WAY rather them say it behind my back. I could care less if someone hates my dress.

I agree that it would be best if we did focus on the good in people and trying to see why they tick as they do. I think that sometimes we can be overly confrontational just so we can feel like we are speaking our truth. I think we need to look at what is to be gained by hurting the person, and I don't think us feeling better about ourselves is always a good reason.

I further think (and this is not something I have ever seen you ((Arwen)) do, just jumping off of the subject) that we need to be careful about making fun of people we do not agree with. Just becasue we might do it to their face and feel authentic in doing so is not a good reason.

Does that make sense?

[theoddz]

Originally Posted by Arwen

I am so Southern it hurts sometimes. I grew up in this culture of talking behing others' backs. I do not condone it. I have seen the damage it does. I have felt the damage. I understand what you are saying. I really do.

However, there are some traditions that need to be changed. If I would not say it to your face, I am re-teaching myself how to not say it at all. I'm thumperizing my life in that way because it is important to me personally.

I am giving up my right-by-Southern ability to say, "Did you see that dress Apocalipstic wore to the party? Bless her heart, it wasn't her best color." And all other variations of that type of talk. I am on a mission in my own life to eradicate it from all corners of my communication. If I wouldn't tell Jackhammer she is an ass to her face, then I won't do it behind her back. (NOTE: both examples are pure fiction! )

This really isn't about silencing so I'll (grin) silence myself on this. It's my own personal soapbox on something I do that I detest.

eh ehehehe....and in Southern culture, all mean-spiritedness is negated/mitigated by those three little magical words, "Bless her/his heart".

Couldn't resist that......bless my heart.

~Theo~

[T D]

Silencing = Using someones personal stories, shares as ammunition to be used as a means of belittling and thereby silencing them. Using gossip, falsehoods, negativity to describe someone and put a negative spin on their character. Telling others that what they say/said isn't pertinent to the topic or bascially doesn't belong in the thread. Trying to convince everyone reading the thread that you are the smartest, most informed, and you must be believed because of this. That if you ID as some certain way, then you must be like all the others who ID that way. Like someone else said earlier, not every butch, transguy, or anyone else are misogynistic pigs, nor do they all think that a "femme is not a femme without a butch", something I'd never even seen or heard about until this site. Interestingly enough some people would certainly color us all as being the same.

It goes on and on and on, the ways this can and does happen are endless. I absolutely do NOT think this is something that we just perceive in our heads, I think it actually happens, often times intentionally, and is quite often directed at specific participants. I've been watching these types of threads for years and years, and they generally end up the same way with the same people doing and saying the same stuff in the same manner.

What this boils down to for me is RESPECT or lack of it. If each person here looked at the other as a person of REAL value I believe they'd have respect for that person. What I often times see instead is someone who has a "need" to somehow prove that they're the smartest, the most informed, the brightest star on the block, and quite frankly it's these very people who make me wonder why they "need" this so much. It just leads me to believe that they're insecure themselves, and need to obtain their security by collecting followers from around them and giving themselves an appearance of superiority.

Again, I'm just saying that respect and/or lack of it is at the bottom of all this for me. I find it very difficult to respect people who don't respect others, or at the very least speak as if they do when responding to other peoples thoughts, views, feelings, experiences, etc.

You know, I've been wanting to say this for a very long time. I've been watching it go on for SOOO long now. I may get a bunch of backlash from having said these things, but bottom line for me is, if you don't give respect you're not going to get much of it back, and if you try to be the smartest kid on the block, it doesn't ensure that you are.

It would be really nice to see people open up more, to be more caring about others here, to be more open to understanding, to be more open to the fact that not everyone in a particular category is the same as the person standing beside them, that each of us has a different way of communicating, that we're all different and we ALL perceive the world differently, and that we're all speaking from OUR perceived worlds!

Stepping down now.

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

My name is adele and I am so NOT here to recruit you! (sorry, couldn't resist)

This is a great post! I wonder if people equate everyone not agreeing with them to not being heard? Then it all goes to hell in a handbasket. The thing is, on the other side of the coin that is not being heard is not listening. Listening means extracting ones POV and being open IMO.

Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean you aren't being heard - it just means you aren't being agreed with. If someone makes that equation, then they (the collective) have other issues to address. IMO it means that unless you AGREE to what they are saying, you are obviously dismissing it, or "not hearing them". Perhaps it's a case of THEM dismissing the fact that you simply don't agree. Now who is dismissing who?

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Arwen

I think Silencing is a form of shunning/ostracizing. We will not all get along. That's a fact, Jack. But we can behave in socially acceptable ways towards one another.

However, then we have to determine what is "socially acceptable."

In some groups, it is socially acceptable to send PM's or talk about someone behind their back.

I've done this to you, SuperFemme. I am using this example because you and I discussed this. We repaired what I allowed to happen by listening to and by perpetuating some rather unpleasant gossip. It is one of the reasons I try my best not to say anything behind someone's back that I would not say to their face. It's an important thing in my life.

I have been silenced by others telling me that my way of communicating in written form is demeaning or belittling. I do have a dogmatic way of communicating. I do not like that I have hurt people unintentionally. However, I know for a fact that I have hurt people intentionally. Not proud of that but I will also not allow anyone to use that as a weapon to silence me.

I've set up some pretty firm boundaries about avoiding those who do gossip in mean ways. I have to quantify that with "in mean ways" because if gossip is talking about someone, then I gossip a lot. I talk about Pixiestars and how much I enjoy her company. I mention Shariberry's shopping abilities. I am a horrible gossip about Ashton's tour guide skills. Or tell someone that they must buy Diva's CD because it is most excellent. Or read any of the 9Word poets' work. ETC.

If gossip is mean-spirited, then I will self-correct myself. I will say out loud that I do not want to talk about someone behind their back and correct that behaviour. If I do not want to be around gossips, I can't be one, right? And Gods know, I've been one!

I do see gossip as Silencing. And again, I am sorry for what I did to you rather than go directly to you.

I think gossip is inherently mean spirited. I also think that certain people are just a recipe for disaster when they bring out the worst in others.

I think one of the most healing moments for me was when you apologized to me. So please stop now, I forgive you. Your apology was a gift because it validated the months of crazy making. It was brave of you to do so and I am eternally grateful.

Interestingly, I chose to not engage and silenced myself during that time period. My health could not take the toxic nature of thinking about it. Yet the silence imposed was deafening.

There was not necessarily a power imbalance but at times it was perceived by me to be one. I had to do the work around that.

It's not unimportant that we live in a world where boundaries are being blurred about privacy and a demand to know is pervasive. Take the Tiger Woods incident. How dare he not make a statement! I want to vomit everytime I hear about it.

[amiyesiam]

I love the thank you button. It lets people know you like what they posted. It takes time to respond to posts.

Next when someone says they are differently abled and people are rude, etc to them it is wrong. Perhaps because I have worked with differently abled people for over 15 years I have strong feelings about this.

Sometimes some people don't spend enough time letting people know they are liked, appreciated, respected, etc.

[QUOTE=SuperFemme;18730]Ok. Now I'd like to add something else to the mix.

What about Silencing through gossip? Shunning. Labeling of a person as a slut, a stalker, a gold digger or obsessed?

This is something we can all combat. Sending a pm to another member devaluing another member? It has been my experience that nobody ever goes to the person being shredded and *asks* before perpetuationg the bullshit.
I have really strong opinions about the above. I don't do this period. And I can shut someone who tries to do it to me down in a heart beat.
send me something unpleasant about someone else and you will get back a well worded and well thought out response tailored to your pm. It will cover, point by point (all logic no emotion) why your pm is not acceptable and please don't do it to me again.
If you shut a gossip down from the beginning, most learn not to bother to come to you with negativity.
Another point on gossip: We tend to call other peoples gossip drama. When it is our drama/gossip we call it venting about our life, sticking up for our selves etc.
really would you want others to say about you, what you say about others?

[Diva]

Great thread, SF....it brings out some provocative thinking to be sure....

I don't often feel silenced. I understand, Words, what You are saying by the academic verbiage.....sometimes, it gets to be too much for me personally. But I don't feel silenced just because a poster might use a few bigger/more complicated/lofty words. I just have my dictionary close~by. A week doesn't go by that I don't learn a few new words! I may not have a clue what they meant, but by God, I've got a new WORD!

Now when I'm looking up every other word, I just go 'what is the point'? lol I may not SAY anything, but I don't feel silenced. I think that would be on me if I felt that way. You can't dismiss or silence me unless I give You persmission.

Someone mentioned the 'addressing every single post' or 'every point in a post'....and if someone ~ say someone whose comments we respect and admire ~ doesn't address it, doesn't mean they are trying to silence someone else. Maybe they didn't see it. Maybe it didn't speak to them at the moment they read it. And if we DID address each point, we'd wear out that "Multiple Quote Feature"!!!

This is a crazy deal, this on~line discussion stuff. It's hard to read tone, unless You might know the one posting and can hear their inflection. We don't always have that luxury.

I hope that made sense......thanks again, SF.....