Proposed Mosque Near Ground Zero

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by FeminineAllure

I was simply offering anothers opinion and point of view. I am not scared of Muslims. And thank you, as I see who I am dealing with as well.

I hope you will take this in the spirit in which it is given, FA. You say you see who you are dealing with but I wonder if you do. Most everyone here arguing the other side simply wants a cogent, coherent, *reason* to oppose this community center that doesn't rely on stereotypes, breathless accusations of Muslim triumphalism or other non-evidence based arguments. I know that's all I want.

Look, I get it that you oppose this community center being built. I also understand that it can be lonely arguing a contrary opinion on a message board. However, if you say you oppose this community center and your opposition is based upon the idea that this is inappropriate then the rest of us are perfectly within reason to ask why it is inappropriate. But, unless I missed a post of yours, I haven't really read an argument why this center shouldn't be built. I certainly haven't had one that met the Kantian imperative that one should never back a law, ethic or principle that one would not want to see applied universally without prejudice.

So let's say, for instance, that you were to wake up tomorrow morning and find that an a Christian church in, say, Indonesia (the largest Muslim country in the world) had been burnt to the ground. The BBC, doing 'man on the street', interviews in Jakarta shows person after person saying "we burned this church to the ground because of all the Muslims who have been killed by Christians". Would you shrug your shoulders and say "well, of course" or would you feel an injustice had been done? What if, the day after that, you saw a headline that Indonesia had passed a law saying you could not practice Christianity in that nation? Again, the BBC interviews the average Indonesian and again you hear that it is insensitive for Christians to be in a Muslim nation given all the demonstrable blood shed by Christians. Would you agree, at least in principle, with the passage of said law or would you, again, think an injustice had been done? The following day you wake up and you see an American soldier, his face is bruised and bloodied, his lips are swollen. The man in the face mask, standing just behind him with a pistol to his head, says that this soldier is the first but not the last who will pay with his blood for deaths of all the Muslims who died in Iraq and Afghanistan. Would you think that this was a reasonable act? On another day, there is footage of a mass Bible burning. Would you think that this was fine because the Bible is the book of Christians and the people setting the book to the torch are Muslims.

I doubt that any of those would sit well with you. So is this principle of "its insensitive" one that you would want applied universally without favor or prejudice?

Cheers
Aj

[FeminineAllure]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I hope you will take this in the spirit in which it is given, FA. You say you see who you are dealing with but I wonder if you do. Most everyone here arguing the other side simply wants a cogent, coherent, *reason* to oppose this community center that doesn't rely on stereotypes, breathless accusations of Muslim triumphalism or other non-evidence based arguments. I know that's all I want.

Look, I get it that you oppose this community center being built. I also understand that it can be lonely arguing a contrary opinion on a message board. However, if you say you oppose this community center and your opposition is based upon the idea that this is inappropriate then the rest of us are perfectly within reason to ask why it is inappropriate. But, unless I missed a post of yours, I haven't really read an argument why this center shouldn't be built. I certainly haven't had one that met the Kantian imperative that one should never back a law, ethic or principle that one would not want to see applied universally without prejudice.

So let's say, for instance, that you were to wake up tomorrow morning and find that an a Christian church in, say, Indonesia (the largest Muslim country in the world) had been burnt to the ground. The BBC, doing 'man on the street', interviews in Jakarta shows person after person saying "we burned this church to the ground because of all the Muslims who have been killed by Christians". Would you shrug your shoulders and say "well, of course" or would you feel an injustice had been done? What if, the day after that, you saw a headline that Indonesia had passed a law saying you could not practice Christianity in that nation? Again, the BBC interviews the average Indonesian and again you hear that it is insensitive for Christians to be in a Muslim nation given all the demonstrable blood shed by Christians. Would you agree, at least in principle, with the passage of said law or would you, again, think an injustice had been done? The following day you wake up and you see an American soldier, his face is bruised and bloodied, his lips are swollen. The man in the face mask, standing just behind him with a pistol to his head, says that this soldier is the first but not the last who will pay with his blood for deaths of all the Muslims who died in Iraq and Afghanistan. Would you think that this was a reasonable act? On another day, there is footage of a mass Bible burning. Would you think that this was fine because the Bible is the book of Christians and the people setting the book to the torch are Muslims.

I doubt that any of those would sit well with you. So is this principle of "its insensitive" one that you would want applied universally without favor or prejudice?

Cheers
Aj

First of all, I stand up and applaud you as well. I appreciate that you did not call me names, put words in my mouth, assume you know me, my heart and what I feel, and think or that I am posting to play a victim here.

Let me now do the best I can do conveying what I think in this post. But I am not here to to have people not like my reasoning so they start assuming again.

I *DO NOT* oppose a community center.
I at first said "I thought it would be "inapproprite" to put a Mosque which I am being told is not a Mosque so a *community center* so close to ground zero.
I then apologized for using the word "inappropriate" because who am I to judge what is and is not appropriate?
I then said I thought it would be nice to have a center which represented all faiths as a place to come together.
Unfortunately, I then chose a poor source for a resource.
Now let me ask you something? Have you never put your foot into your own mouth before? I have on this thread. And I am done inserting it any farther. Understand?
Thanks.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by FeminineAllure

First of all, I stand up and applaud you as well. I appreciate that you did not call me names, put words in my mouth, assume you know me, my heart and what I feel, and think or that I am posting to play a victim here.

Let me now do the best I can do conveying what I think in this post. But I am not here to to have people not like my reasoning so they start assuming again.

I *DO NOT* oppose a community center.
I at first said "I thought it would be "inapproprite" to put a Mosque which I am being told is not a Mosque so a *community center* so close to ground zero.
I then apologized for using the word "inappropriate" because who am I to judge what is and is not appropriate?
I then said I thought it would be nice to have a center which represented all faiths as a place to come together.
Unfortunately, I then chose a poor source for a resource.
Now let me ask you something? Have you never put your foot into your own mouth before? I have on this thread. And I am done inserting it any farther. Understand?
Thanks.

Why is it not OK for this to be built?? What is *your* reasoning?

As for a place for all to come and pay their respects, I believe a few people have pointed out that a memorial is being built on ground zero..

This of course has not happened 9 years later, why is no one up in arms about this?


So I ask cause I am curious to know your opinion, why can't a Community Center/ Mosque be built where it is being built?

What is so wrong about that?

Oh, and I am not seeing where anyone called anyone names.....

[Corkey]

I do it all the time, and my wife loves me anyway.
Thanks for clarification FA

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by FeminineAllure

First of all, I stand up and applaud you as well. I appreciate that you did not call me names, put words in my mouth, assume you know me, my heart and what I feel, and think or that I am posting to play a victim here.

I don't think I can know what people's hearts are like. I do think I know what people's thoughts are based upon what they write. But thank you, I'm glad you find my tone civil; I strive for my posts to always be civil.

Let me now do the best I can do conveying what I think in this post. But I am not here to to have people not like my reasoning so they start assuming again.

I *DO NOT* oppose a community center.
I at first said "I thought it would be "inapproprite" to put a Mosque which I am being told is not a Mosque so a *community center* so close to ground zero.
I then apologized for using the word "inappropriate" because who am I to judge what is and is not appropriate?
I then said I thought it would be nice to have a center which represented all faiths as a place to come together.
Unfortunately, I then chose a poor source for a resource.
Now let me ask you something? Have you never put your foot into your own mouth before? I have on this thread. And I am done inserting it any farther. Understand?
Thanks.

Have I ever put my foot in my mouth? Absolutely! Part of why I can be verbose is that I try to make it absolutely clear what I am and am not saying. Being a writer I know that the reader cannot and should not have to try to get inside my head to fill in the things I think are self-evident because they are self-evident to ME. I am curious why you chose the sources that you did.

As far as the having a place for people of all faiths to come together why would it have to be at the Cordoba house site? The argument that the community center should not be built close to the WTC site because it would be better to have a place for people of all faiths to come together seems, well, let's just say I don't follow the logic. The same could be said of ANY building use that was not an interfaith center. "We want to build a 100 story shopping mall a block over from the WTC site..." "Why not build a 100 story center where all people could come together...." See how that works? Extending the logic--and I'm taking your words to mean what they appear to mean--then really ANY building around the WTC site would be just as well used as an ecumenical center. So why is it that the use that would result in a community center frequented by Muslims is questionable while the use as, say, a Burger King or sushi restaurant or, for that matter, 100 story shopping mall wouldn't be?

As far as your statement "who am I to judge..." well, you are a citizen of a democratic republic and so, in point of fact, it is kind of in the job description of citizen to judge such things. If someone wanted to, for instance, open a strip club across the street from the high school I would have issues about that. I would go and make certain that those issues received a public hearing. Am I anti-strip clubs? No, not particularly. Am I anti-sex? Absolutely not! However, I judge it inappropriate to put a strip club across the street from a high school. Am I making a judgement? Yes. That's part of being a responsible citizen. However, in making said judgement, I should expect that my position will be challenged by people who may hold a contrary view. I should be expected to be prepared to explain my reasoning and, if my reasoning is shown to be flawed, incoherent, or based upon non-factual or non-evidentiary grounds then I should also be prepared to change my position.

As I said in my post to you, all of us arguing the other side, are simply looking to understand the why of it and so far, I can't say that I've seen, read or heard a cogent argument about why the place shouldn't be built. I certainly haven't seen a principle applied that any person would want applied universally without favor or prejudice.

Btw. just as an aside--I am defending the rights of practitioners of a religion I do not practice and would not practice (because I don't 'do' theism generally or monotheism specifically) because I believe that minority faiths, ethnic minorities, racial minorities, and queer people are the canaries in the social coal mine. If this is happening to Cordoba house today, and the mosque (which IS a mosque) in Tennessee or California tomorrow, then it's only a matter of time before someone gets around to noticing the couple of million Americans who practice Zen Buddhism and decide that because Japan was Buddhist (which is sort of correct but Shinto was the majority religion in Japan during the War) and since we fought a war 70 years ago, it's not a good idea for there to be Buddhist temples in America.

Btw. the next time you hear someone say something along the theme of "they can build their mosque, just not there" run this one around your head and see what you come up with:

"Blacks can marry anyone they like, as long as the person isn't white."
"Blacks can live anywhere they want, just not next door."
"Gays and lesbians can marry any person they want, just so long as it is a member of the opposite gender."

Different words, identical sentiments. It's like being in favor of, say, your neighbor coming for dinner provided that they don't eat or drink anything.


cheers
Aj

[The_Lady_Snow]

Petraeus: Burning Quran Endangers Americans



http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=129701795

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by FeminineAllure

First of all, I stand up and applaud you as well. I appreciate that you did not call me names, put words in my mouth, assume you know me, my heart and what I feel, and think or that I am posting to play a victim here.

Let me now do the best I can do conveying what I think in this post. But I am not here to to have people not like my reasoning so they start assuming again.

I *DO NOT* oppose a community center.
I at first said "I thought it would be "inapproprite" to put a Mosque which I am being told is not a Mosque so a *community center* so close to ground zero.
I then apologized for using the word "inappropriate" because who am I to judge what is and is not appropriate?
I then said I thought it would be nice to have a center which represented all faiths as a place to come together.
Unfortunately, I then chose a poor source for a resource.
Now let me ask you something? Have you never put your foot into your own mouth before? I have on this thread. And I am done inserting it any farther. Understand?
Thanks.

Although, I am usually on the left side of these discussions and honestly view this entire story/issue as just one cog on the wheel of an ever increasing anti-Muslim ladder in the US - I get what you are saying, here.

So often, one statement from a poster is jumped all over when, everyone, has put a foot in their mouth at one time or another. It happens. And since we do not have a 3 dimensional way of "hearing" each other, I find pile ons (not saying that is happening presently) to be very unfair. And a tool for hindering communication because once put on the defensive, most people will dig further into their stance and not consider opposing convictions.

One of the things that I value the most on the site is seeing what other people think about issues, etc. I don't always agree, but, there have been many times that my own thinking has been enriched by someone else's take on things.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Florida pastor calls off Quran burning



http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/09/09/flo...pt=T1&iref=BN1

[SuperFemme]

so apparently he is saying that he is not going to burn them cuz some Islamic Leader told him that the "mosque" near Ground Zero will be moved elsewhere.

Which is false information, the man who made the statement has nothing to do with the Islamic Center in NY.

so the guy is going to NY on Saturday to meet with....?

eal estate mogul Donald Trump has offered to buy the lower Manhattan site where the Muslim group plans to build an Islamic community center for 25 percent more than the current owners paid for it.
Trump made the offer Thursday in a letter to Hisham Elzanaty, an investor in the Islamic center site.

"I am making this offer as a resident of New York and citizen of the United States, not because I think the location is a spectacular one (because it is not), but because it will end a very serious, inflammatory, and highly divisive situation that is destined, in my opinion, to only get worse," he wrote.

beejeezus some people have things so convoluted i don't even know what to think or say.

[Nat]

NY mosque investor declines Trump's buyout offer

[Nat]

Obama Sends Best Wishes to Muslims for Eid-al-Fitr

Mr. Obama said this year's Eid is also an occasion to reflect on the importance of religious tolerance.

President Obama said that this year, those affected by the devastated floods in Pakistan will be on the minds of many around the world. He said all Americans can participate in the relief, recovery and reconstruction efforts by donating to the Pakistan Relief Fund at www.state.gov.