Olivia Cruisers? Carribean Sun Cruise October 30th

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Well since you're the authority on Lesbian Events maybe you would like to explain to us what it was about the one member and his group of friends that got him turned away (and remember, that person at that time was under the impression that he was a lesbian). Maybe the person who told them they weren't welcome was an Oracle of some kind and could sense an aura of Future Man? Honestly, Bulldog. If it happened to one person, it DOES have the potential to happen again.

I love how non lesbians are some how the authority.

[turasultana]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I love how non lesbians are some how the authority.

seriously, that's your response? A question was asked -how can you know you wouldn't be turned away as a masculine looking person if another masculine looking person WAS turned away in the past? The point being, they may not care if YOU see yourself as a lesbian, THEY may see you as a masculine person and turn you away regardless.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by turasultana

seriously, that's your response? A question was asked -how can you know you wouldn't be turned away as a masculine looking person if another masculine looking person WAS turned away in the past? The point being, they may not care if YOU see yourself as a lesbian, THEY may see you as a masculine person and turn you away regardless.

I don't plan on going on an Olivia Cruise anytime soon. If I did it would never cross my mind that I would be turned away. If someone wants to pay for transportation to the ship and pay for my ticket I will put it to the test.

I already said I think the way Blaze was treated was rude. Blaze was part of a group of friends that included at least one FTM that was turned away. I don't think they should have been treated rudely.

I have been a lesbian for over 30 years and also I am butch. My experience DOES tell me where I am or am not welcome. Have I ever had a lesbian been rude to me? Yes. I have also have straight people be rude to me, bisexuals, transpeople, genderqueer people, etc etc. I've had many a gay male waiter be very patronizing and sexist to me at gay male owned restaurants. I could go on. Most people I encounter- whatever their gender and sexual orientation may be- are nice and treat me well.

I really don't care if people want to go on an Olivia Cruise or not. It's not on my short list.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I love how non lesbians are some how the authority.

Oh, I'm sorry! Did the bisexual upset you by asking a legitimate question? I wasn't claiming to be an authority, but you already know that. You DO NOT HAVE PERMISSION to make me feel like I can't participate in a discussion about a fucking cruise line because I'm not a Lesbian. So you can go ahead and knock that off right now.

Originally Posted by Blaze

She went on to explain that because there were more butch wemon and not enough woman-woman, it would be best if we booked for another cruise at a later time.

So Bulldog take heart! Provided that the cruise line meets their "woman-woman" quota you will be allowed on board! Yippie!

Originally Posted by Medusa

I have been privy to one story where a woman who was very masculine was given a hard time by a crew member, a bartender, and one of the people checking them in.

More encouragement! You might be allowed to get on the ship, Bulldog. But they might treat you like shit once you're there.

Have at it. Go ahead and defend a cruise line that has treated YOUR people YOUR community like shit. Go ahead and convince yourself because you have 30 years of Lesbian Street Cred that that shit could never happen to you. I am, honestly, appalled by your lack of outrage. YOUR COMMUNITY is treating other members of YOUR COMMUNITY like shit - but that's okay so long as it's not some other community treating your community like shit?

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Oh, I'm sorry! Did the bisexual upset you by asking a legitimate question? I wasn't claiming to be an authority, but you already know that. You DO NOT HAVE PERMISSION to make me feel like I can't participate in a discussion about a fucking cruise line because I'm not a Lesbian. So you can go ahead and knock that off right now.



So Bulldog take heart! Provided that the cruise line meets their "woman-woman" quota you will be allowed on board! Yippie!



More encouragement! You might be allowed to get on the ship, Bulldog. But they might treat you like shit once you're there.

Have at it. Go ahead and defend a cruise line that has treated YOUR people YOUR community like shit. Go ahead and convince yourself because you have 30 years of Lesbian Street Cred that that shit could never happen to you. I am, honestly, appalled by your lack of outrage. YOUR COMMUNITY is treating other members of YOUR COMMUNITY like shit - but that's okay so long as it's not some other community treating your community like shit?

I said the way Blaze and his friends were treated was wrong several times. How many times do I have to say to qualify as being outraged. I never said it was ok and I'm not defending the cruise line. The cruise line targets lesbians.

I also never said you couldn't participate in a discussion. Where the hell did you come up with that.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Have at it. Go ahead and defend a cruise line that has treated YOUR people YOUR community like shit. Go ahead and convince yourself because you have 30 years of Lesbian Street Cred that that shit could never happen to you. I am, honestly, appalled by your lack of outrage. YOUR COMMUNITY is treating other members of YOUR COMMUNITY like shit - but that's okay so long as it's not some other community treating your community like shit?

You want to know something really IRONIC Betenoire. The worst I have been treated as a butch has been on online butch femme websites and it happens over and over. <insert ironic laughter> That's how MY community treats ME

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by BullDog

You want to know something really IRONIC Betenoire. The worst I have been treated as a butch has been on online butch femme websites and it happens over and over. <insert ironic laughter> That's how MY community treats ME

I am hurt, so I am going to be honest with you like I have been for years on these online sites.

&^%$ *&%~~~ *I* have never treated you with any kind of disrespect, matter of fucking fact I have been on threads with you defending and speaking up against and with you when it has come to your gender, identity and all else. *I* am a member of your community and I have never treated you in such a matter and how dare you do a sweeping generalization like this.

Fuck that man, that was a shitty statement you made.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I am hurt, so I am going to be honest with you like I have been for years on these online sites.

&^%$ *&%~~~ *I* have never treated you with any kind of disrespect, matter of fucking fact I have been on threads with you defending and speaking up against and with you when it has come to your gender, identity and all else. *I* am a member of your community and I have never treated you in such a matter and how dare you do a sweeping generalization like this.

Fuck that man, that was a shitty statement you made.

I said the worst I have been treated as a butch happens on butch femme online communities and it happens over and over. I did not say 100% of people treat me that way or that it happens 100% of the time. It happens OFTEN.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I love how non lesbians are some how the authority.

Bulldog,

Respectfully, this is very frustrating to read. This issue is SO much bigger than a polar "Lesbian" versus "Non Lesbian" identity-centric struggle but it often seems to boil down to that with you. I'm trying to be super fair about remembering all of discussions that we have been involved in both together and peripherally where the discussion has felt very centered on you wanting your identity respected and not the actual issue that is being discussed. I get that this is a part of the discussion, the respect for identities and how booking cruises on Olivia cruiselines revolves around that, but it bothers me that you can not see the oppression that Blaze and his friends endured.

When you said that how Blaze was treated was "rude", I did a serious recoil. Not because I think you're a big, giant asshole (I don't) but because you would characterize what happened to Blaze as "rude" and not marginalizing, silencing. oppressive, sexist, or any other words that don't feel like "there, there, dear". Can you see that oppression? Can you see it when it happens to someone else?

Blaze wasn't treated "rudely". Blaze was thrown off of a paid vacation with a group of friends and left standing at the docks.
I would personally characterize that as dehumanizing. The really sad thing is that it was done by our own.

I dunno. Maybe Im getting too hung up on the verbiage. Im trying to think of how you might react if we booked a cruise on a cruiseline that had sent a message like "We have had Lesbians come on our vacation before but you will find that your presence is upsetting to our guests who are trying to have a Queer vacation" and then had someone give a personal narrative about how the Queer vacation group left them standing on the docks because they were "too Lesbian" and someone said "they were treated rudely".

I suspect that we might be having a conversation about Lesbians being excluded and how Lesbophobic that was.

Either way, good discussion all around.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Bulldog,

Respectfully, this is very frustrating to read. This issue is SO much bigger than a polar "Lesbian" versus "Non Lesbian" identity-centric struggle but it often seems to boil down to that with you. I'm trying to be super fair about remembering all of discussions that we have been involved in both together and peripherally where the discussion has felt very centered on you wanting your identity respected and not the actual issue that is being discussed. I get that this is a part of the discussion, the respect for identities and how booking cruises on Olivia cruiselines revolves around that, but it bothers me that you can not see the oppression that Blaze and his friends endured.

When you said that how Blaze was treated was "rude", I did a serious recoil. Not because I think you're a big, giant asshole (I don't) but because you would characterize what happened to Blaze as "rude" and not marginalizing, silencing. oppressive, sexist, or any other words that don't feel like "there, there, dear". Can you see that oppression? Can you see it when it happens to someone else?

Blaze wasn't treated "rudely". Blaze was thrown off of a paid vacation with a group of friends and left standing at the docks.
I would personally characterize that as dehumanizing. The really sad thing is that it was done by our own.

I dunno. Maybe Im getting too hung up on the verbiage. Im trying to think of how you might react if we booked a cruise on a cruiseline that had sent a message like "We have had Lesbians come on our vacation before but you will find that your presence is upsetting to our guests who are trying to have a Queer vacation" and then had someone give a personal narrative about how the Queer vacation group left them standing on the docks because they were "too Lesbian" and someone said "they were treated rudely".

I suspect that we might be having a conversation about Lesbians being excluded and how Lesbophobic that was.

Either way, good discussion all around.

No this is not about lesbian vs non-lesbian for me and that isn't what things boil down to for me often and that really ticks me off that you characterize me that way. That's a really strong and negative thing to say about me.

I wasn't minimizing Blaze and his friends experience at all. Sorry if rude was an inappropriate word choice.

People are saying very inaccurate things about lesbians and saying butches wouldn't be welcome on the cruise. I am a butch lesbian and my 30 years of experience does account for something.

Olivia is one of the oldest and most successful lesbian businesses ever. If people don't like who they target their business to that is their choice. I agree that cruises are going to be targeting the more affluent since they are the ones who can afford to go on cruises. I also said right off the bat that a lesbian cruise line would be an inappropriate venue for a butch femme gathering.

[Medusa]

Bully,
I really didn't read people "saying inaccurate things about Lesbians", I read people talking about Olivia Cruises. I'll agree that Olivia is a very successful business but I'm of the mind that success doesn't always equal "good" (see Sarah Palin for example *snort*). I think in this case, I'm irritated because I feel like we are about to do that whole "Lesbians have never done anything bad/racist/classist/separatist in the entire history of the known universe and anyone who says otherwise is a Lesbophobe" discussion that makes all of our eyeballs bleed.

I'm seriously not trying to tick you off, nor am I trying to characterize you in a negative way. I'd like to understand you better.

a

Originally Posted by BullDog

No this is not about lesbian vs non-lesbian for me and that isn't what things boil down to for me often and that really ticks me off that you characterize me that way. That's a really strong and negative thing to say about me.

I wasn't minimizing Blaze and his friends experience at all. Sorry if rude was an inappropriate word choice.

People are saying very inaccurate things about lesbians and saying butches wouldn't be welcome on the cruise. I am a butch lesbian and my 30 years of experience does account for something.

Olivia is one of the oldest and most successful lesbian businesses ever. If people don't like who they target their business to that is their choice. I agree that cruises are going to be targeting the more affluent since they are the ones who can afford to go on cruises. I also said right off the bat that a lesbian cruise line would be an inappropriate venue for a butch femme gathering.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I also never said you couldn't participate in a discussion. Where the hell did you come up with that.

Right here:

Originally Posted by BullDog

I love how non lesbians are some how the authority.

If you weren't trying to shut the evil non lesbian down - what WERE you trying to accomplish, exactly?

Anyway, because I like Medusa (and ONLY because I like Medusa) I am going to just completely ignore you now.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Bully,
I really didn't read people "saying inaccurate things about Lesbians", I read people talking about Olivia Cruises. I'll agree that Olivia is a very successful business but I'm of the mind that success doesn't always equal "good" (see Sarah Palin for example *snort*). I think in this case, I'm irritated because I feel like we are about to do that whole "Lesbians have never done anything bad/racist/classist/separatist in the entire history of the known universe and anyone who says otherwise is a Lesbophobe" discussion that makes all of our eyeballs bleed.

I'm seriously not trying to tick you off, nor am I trying to characterize you in a negative way. I'd like to understand you better.

a

I have never said or implied anything even remotely close regarding the part of what you said in bold. I feel that is a huge exaggeration and has nothing to do with anything I have said. I have never said lesbians can do no wrong or that Olivia Cruises is perfect. I also haven't charged anyone with being a lesbophobe in this conversation.

I don't think ANYONE should be treated badly at their docks. Some of the communication coming from higher ups is also troubling. Then there was a statement from I believe their Vice President on another butch femme website saying something completely different. That came after someone on another website had the "brilliant" idea of trying to hold a butch femme gathering on a lesbian cruise ship.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by BullDog

That came after someone on another website had the "brilliant" idea of trying to hold a butch femme gathering on a lesbian cruise ship.

I have been following this thread and trying to stay somewhat quiet to hopefully allow a bit of critical analysis to happen in my processing of the posted information. I am getting stuck on the above. To me it implices that butch femmes are separated out and not part of the Lesbian community. Am I interpretting this correctly? Is this the belief of Olivia Cruises that Butch and Femme women are not lesbians? I know most of us in this community understand the need to respect one's self identity but unless Olivia screens, questions every "masculine" appearing and/or acting, how is it determined if they are a "Lesbian" or not?

My final question for this post, at this point in the evolution of the G&L, L&G, LGBT, LGBTQ, LGBTQI, LGBTQIA and now LGBTQQIA community, should it really matter how "others" may I.D. us, gender us?

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Greyson

I have been following this thread and trying to stay somewhat quiet to hopefully allow a bit of critical analysis to happen in my processing of the posted information. I am getting stuck on the above. To me it implices that butch femmes are separated out and not part of the Lesbian community. Am I interpretting this correctly? Is this the belief of Olivia Cruises that Butch and Femme women are not lesbians? I know most of us in this community understand the need to respect one's self identity but unless Olivia screens, questions every "masculine" appearing and/or acting, how is it determined if they are a "Lesbian" or not?

My final question for this post, at this point in the evolution of the G&L, L&G, LGBT, LGBTQ, LGBTQI, LGBTQIA and now LGBTQQIA community, should it really matter how "others" may I.D. us, gender us?

Not everyone in the butch femme community is a lesbian. That's why I don't think it's a smart idea to have a butch femme event on a lesbian cruise. Lots of butches and femmes are lesbians, not all are. Many members of the butch femme community are trans people but not all are. Therefore I don't think holding a butch femme event in a venue for trans people would be appropriate either.

[Billy]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I love how non lesbians are some how the authority.

LOL , you are something else But I quess you are the authority of Lesbians cause you have been one for 30 years ..Next time I have a guestion about Lesbians I sure will come find you ...... Until then I would not book a cruise on Olivia Cruises anytime soon .. Just sayin

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Billy

LOL , you are something else But I quess you are the authority of Lesbians cause you have been one for 30 years ..Next time I have a guestion about Lesbians I sure will come find you ...... Until then I would not book a cruise on Olivia Cruises anytime soon .. Just sayin

Well I am a big fat Lesbian and I wouldn't book either.
To *me* the act of turning away a butch woman or an MTF (which means she is a woman) is not the act of a loving community.

Community means all of us (to me).

Olivia Cruiselines must not put a lot of faith in Lesbians if they are going to speak for the faceless masses and deem them as "upset" by....what? I don't even know. I also feel like any ftm folk wanting to go on this kind of cruise is not living steath as a male full time, but rather still very connected to the community that was their home for so many years,.

I have a super hard time separating Lesbian from Queer. Trans from Queer. Gay from Queer. To me it's all of us for each other. Not all of us against each other.

I cannot begin to examine what Blaze must have felt as a Lesbian on the dock that day, being refused entry. I close my eyes and try to visualize myself there, and the end result is only tears. That act of exclusion of a Lesbian is unconscionable.

[Toughy]

What happened to Blaze was 8 years ago. 8 years. We don't have the whole story and never will get it. That is not said with any judgment at all towards Blaze....it's just a fact. Kobi has made good points concerning this.

Bully, from what I can tell, agrees with what we are saying. Some of you just don't like the way she says. Crap sometimes she irritates me, but I am not gonna mis-read her and jump to conclusions she never made.

How about we stop attacking each other.........specifically stop jumping on Bully. I said some of the same things Bully has said and I got lots names under my posts. Nobody up my ass, making fun of me like Billy's last post. Jesus.............this is getting embarrassing.

[Billy]

Originally Posted by Toughy

What happened to Blaze was 8 years ago. 8 years. We don't have the whole story and never will get it. That is not said with any judgment at all towards Blaze....it's just a fact. Kobi has made good points concerning this.

Bully, from what I can tell, agrees with what we are saying. Some of you just don't like the way she says. Crap sometimes she irritates me, but I am not gonna mis-read her and jump to conclusions she never made.

How about we stop attacking each other.........specifically stop jumping on Bully. I said some of the same things Bully has said and I got lots names under my posts. Nobody up my ass, making fun of me like Billy's last post. Jesus.............this is getting embarrassing.

I didn't make fun of Bully .....And there where alot more folks on here having the same issue I was , trying to get the point across , so if you want to call Me out and look past the others , that is your choice and I have know problem with that ...

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Toughy

What happened to Blaze was 8 years ago. 8 years. We don't have the whole story and never will get it. That is not said with any judgment at all towards Blaze....it's just a fact. Kobi has made good points concerning this.

Bully, from what I can tell, agrees with what we are saying. Some of you just don't like the way she says. Crap sometimes she irritates me, but I am not gonna mis-read her and jump to conclusions she never made.

How about we stop attacking each other.........specifically stop jumping on Bully. I said some of the same things Bully has said and I got lots names under my posts. Nobody up my ass, making fun of me like Billy's last post. Jesus.............this is getting embarrassing.

Thanks Toughy. I was thinking the same thing.

I spent a long time before I even posted in this thread trying to understand what was going on. I then spent a lot of time on my initial post trying to cover the issue and ask a few genuine questions.

Then when Snow pointed out there was a lot of upset that I wasn't up to speed on I went over to the other channel to try and figure things out. It took me at least a half an hour to even find the thread and another half hour to read the thread in its entirety. I saw the legitimate concerns raised over there. I also saw Transmen over there- who also are members of this community- saying they fully support lesbians having cruises but if there is going to be a butch femme event they do feel they have a right to be welcome. I completely agreed. I also saw those raising concerns being called liars and their integrity questioned.

Anyway, I spent a lot of time reading up to understand the issues and have asked genuine questions and tried to understand. I haven't called anyone any names, hurled any insults or accused anyone of anything. I have gotten a lot of nasty insults and been told I am engaging in us vs them when there isn't a shred of evidence of that in any of my posts.

Wow, I'm so glad I have spent so much of my time trying to understand only to be insulted, accused and made fun of.