The Never-Ending Bathroom Debate

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Reading through some of the more recent post, I agree and do think it is the women's washroom that become's the biggest issue more often than the men's washroom, and I think it does because of a number of issues. Thinking back to the article ComparedtoWhom posted, I think I agree less and less with the reasoning the author gave regarding women's disaproval of multi user gender neutral washrooms.

There is the issue of security, but I think that perhaps this issue has changed somewhat with the nature of 21st century western (thinking Western/Central/North Western European, Canadian, American, Australian) society. I think that in most cases, if there were a genuine fear regarding security there would be, generally, less mockery and more fear/outrage at the presence of a masculine presenting/male appearing individual in the women's washroom. But in most cases, as many of us have witnessed at some point in life, mockery is all that we're faced with. So how do we address security versus intolerance toward unorthodox gender identity.

I think, at least where I live, there are the issues added by the multicultural nature of western society. The area that I work in is inhabited by an African and Arab Muslim majority, and depending on the region/nation from which they come, as well as the sect to which they adhere, dress code and the division between male/female spaces is very important to them. The concern and response of a Somalian Muslim woman to a male/masculine presence in a women's washroom is quite different from someone of a non-religious (or even Catholic/Protestant/Eastern Orthodox) background who has spent the majority of their life in Canada.

The problem is, the bathroom issue does not just pertain to trans guys and other male or transgender identities, but to other butches who identify as a female or woman or simply not male or transgender who just may not want to or feel the need to use the men's washroom. At that point we get a kind of culture clash, especially in a nation that identifies itself as a mosaic where all cultures are retained. There are trans guys or other male identities who have no issue using the men's washroom because they identify as male whether intending to undergo what is deemed as "transition" or not (where the eventual aim is to be understood as male 100% of the time), or perhaps they are transgender and also have no qualms in using the men's washroom. But what of those who still identify as female/women/generally not male who reserve their right to use the women's washroom on the basis that they are born and continue to live as biological females, despite being butch/masculine identified/presenting?

We've come very far in many western nations when it comes to human/individual rights, but as the multicultural nature of the west continues to expand, how does one cross these bridges?

I think it still does have so much to do with security in my area. Women are very careful and honestly, how many horror films have scary bathroom scenes!

I get wanting to use the Women's bathroom to make a point, or becasue it is cleaner, but I sincerely think it safer to use the Men's room when in question. Men do not look at each other, especially in the bathroom unless they have ulterior motives.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I think it still does have so much to do with security in my area. Women are very careful and honestly, how many horror films have scary bathroom scenes!

I get wanting to use the Women's bathroom to make a point, or becasue it is cleaner, but I sincerely think it safer to use the Men's room when in question. Men do not look at each other, especially in the bathroom unless they have ulterior motives.

I think I didn't express myself entirely in the clearest way possible. I definitely agree with you that security is still an issue, but I'm not sure that it being an issue is why so many butches and masculine females/women etc. have trouble in women's washrooms.

For example, I remember on the b-f site a while back there was a discussion concerning the bathroom issue. One poster had made a complaint about how they'd been treated in a women's changeroom and how there shouldn't be any such issues (or something like that, my memory's foggy). I remember posting a response about the security, and another poster (I think maybe JustJo? Lemme know if I'm off base here) gave an example of a client of her's reaction when a very masculine butch entered the change room. If I recall correctly, the response from the client was genuine shock because she really thought a man had entered the changeroom. But that is not the response many women give when they see a masculine biological female enter a washroom/changeroom/what have you. More often than not they know the person is in the right bathroom according to biological sex, but choose to make some kind of snide remark, make a big deal and bring a security guard into the situation for the sake of humiliating the individual, or generally engage in some kind of mockery. They do not express shock or fear because they don't actually fear for their own safety. They just want to ridicule the individual.

Also, I agree the men's washroom is a safer bet and personally don't have a qualm with what you suggest since I prefer to be there, but I understand that others do not. I can understand the point some butches who do not identify as male would make, that they have just as much a right to be there as any other female/woman. With regard to encouraging progressive thought as far as sex and gender, should they not continue to use the women's washroom even if other women do not approve of their gender identity? Should it not be used as an instance of practice what you preach, so to speak? Am I making any sense?

[SelfMadeMan]

I noticed, after doing a couple panels/talks at the University of Wisconsin, and then going back for our daughter's ATP performance there this week, that most of the facilities on campus are gender neutral. I think that rocks!