Death Penalty - News, Thoughts, Info

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Have I expressed sympathy for them? No. This isn't about sympathy, this isn't about them, this is about US. This is about what kind of society we choose to be.

Pardon me for saying so, but I think torture is barbaric. I think that prisons that are no better than medieval dungeons are barbaric. I think that trial by ordeal is barbaric. I think that vendetta is barbaric. I think that any society that does not torture is a better society, a more humane society, a society less likely to turn in on itself and start doing gratuitously horrible things to itself.

People think that my opposition to the death penalty has something to do with sympathy or softness on crime. That isn't it at all. While I like individual members of our species and while I am quite impressed with what our species can do when we put our minds to it, I'm very realistic about our species and we are NOT a nice species. We aren't as nasty and horrible as we could be, but we are nowhere near a pacific or fair-minded species. To me, torture and execution, the pursuit of revenge instead of justice, is in keeping with our nature. But as Kate Hepburn says so memorably in The African Queen, 'Nature, Mr. Allnut, is what we were put in this world to rise above'. We do not and cannot have a perfect justice system, so in the absence of such, I think we should be as realistic about who we are--as a species and as a culture--and if we do that, I am drawn to the conclusion that putting the execution and torture in the hands of our species is always, at its very best, a risky venture. Putting it in the hands of our culture which seems to be positively drunk with blood-lust (there are enough murders *per year* in the United States to constitute a respectable death toll in low-intensity guerilla war) seems to me to be asking for trouble.

When torture stopped being part of law enforcement (until recently, that is) we became a better culture, a more civilized culture, more deserving of thinking of ourselves as a great nation. When we reach a point when we care more about justice than we do vengeance and when we, as a culture, tread carefully around the death penalty, recognizing what a solemn responsibility it is to execute another, then not only will be an even better culture we will be even more right to consider ourselves a great nation. Just as the only people who truly can be trusted with high and powerful office are those who don't want it, I think that the only cultures that can be trusted with execution are those that don't want to execute people. The United States *wants* to. We want vengeance. We want our pound of flesh. Whatever that is, it isn't justice.

Cheers
Aj

So what do you suggest? Locking the criminals up until they die? I'm genuinely curious what would be acceptable punishment for someone that has raped a child or murdered an innocent man because he took too long to serve him beer (going back to Nat's thread) or beat a woman to the point that she's now a vegetable and has very little, if any at all, brain function?

I hear what is unacceptable but what would be a better option?

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Gemme

So what do you suggest? Locking the criminals up until they die? I'm genuinly curious what would be acceptable punishment for someone that has raped a child or murdered an innocent man because he took too long to serve him beer (going back to Nat's thread) or beat a woman to the point that she's now a vegetable and has very little, if any at all, brain function?

I hear what is unacceptable but what would be a better option?

Yes, lock them up someplace where they will never again walk free. Keep them in a room where there is enough room for them stand up and lay down. Let their remaining years be a monotonous cycle of getting up, back breaking work, and food that sustains, and let the only thing they have to look forward to is the surety that the next day will contain only the same. Let this place be somewhere from which there is no possibility of escape.* Let them know that barring actual acquittal, they will never again be free and they will die in this prison, alone, nothing more than a number and an entry in a database. Let them know all of that.

You can only kill someone once. If you imprison them, however, you do that for every miserable and monotonous day that they live. Prison does not have to be medieval dungeon filled with the screams of the tortured to be a horrible place. You can create a prison that is filled with such sheer mind-numbing monotony, devoid of creativity in any form, that anyone who had to live in that environment, day after day, year after year, would come in short order to pray for death. If after a time, they wish to kill themselves either you let them or if you really believe that they should truly suffer, then medically intervene, going to whatever heroic efforts you think appropriate, to keep them alive. Let them live with whatever scars they leave themselves, but do not let them die. When, in the fullness of time, their body starts to break down their fate can be decided one of two ways. If, say, they have cancer let the disease take its course. Most forms of cancer, at the end-game, are horrible ways to go. If, on the other hand, they have a heart attack and, again, their suffering is something you relish revive them. Do not fix their heart, but do not let them die. So, for instance, if we are talking about someone who is arrested in their thirties they may be looking at another thirty, forty, possibly fifty years in prison. They have longed for death as the only possible surcease of the soul-killing, mind-numbing, unchanging, routine of monotony. And now, after decades of waiting they finally think that their meeting with Death has finally come and their one means of escape has opened up to them and you snatch it away.

You know what the most devious part of this is? You cannot even give them something to hate. This prison does not go out of its way to make the inmates lives miserable. No one is tortured, not in any conventional sense of the term. But they are cut off from the things that make us human. They need no books or exercise. They need no facilitation of their religion. They need no visitors, no contact with the outside world except their lawyers if some new evidence comes to light. The guards in this prison would, as far as possible, be removed from them so that the prisoners do not even have that contact. There are no recreation facilities, no sports. No art. No music. No games. No cards. No cigarettes. If it is not absolutely required to maintain metabolic functions at a nominal capacity, it is forbidden. I am not talking about an evil place, I am talking about a place that is it to be absolutely and completely impersonal. They will never again feel anything like human warmth.

The prison I am talking about is like exile but without even the hope that you could find another tribe.

If someone does something inhuman, let them live out the rest of their days under conditions that are as far removed from human as is possible. If it were ever possible to completely automate the place so that there need not be human guards *inside* the facility (while still being outside to prevent anyone from escaping) all the better.

Whatever you might want to say about me, having sympathy for the worst of criminals is not it.

*(If lifting out of the gravity well ever becomes inexpensive, I would suggest putting prisons on the moon. There is no possibility of escape, any attempt would bring the absolute certainty of death one way or another--where can you run? )

Cheers
Aj

[ravfem]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Yes, lock them up someplace where they will never again walk free. Keep them in a room where there is enough room for them stand up and lay down. Let their remaining years be a monotonous cycle of getting up, back breaking work, and food that sustains, and let the only thing they have to look forward to is the surety that the next day will contain only the same. Let this place be somewhere from which there is no possibility of escape.* Let them know that barring actual acquittal, they will never again be free and they will die in this prison, alone, nothing more than a number and an entry in a database. Let them know all of that.

You can only kill someone once. If you imprison them, however, you do that for every miserable and monotonous day that they live. Prison does not have to be medieval dungeon filled with the screams of the tortured to be a horrible place. You can create a prison that is filled with such sheer mind-numbing monotony, devoid of creativity in any form, that anyone who had to live in that environment, day after day, year after year, would come in short order to pray for death. If after a time, they wish to kill themselves either you let them or if you really believe that they should truly suffer, then medically intervene, going to whatever heroic efforts you think appropriate, to keep them alive. Let them live with whatever scars they leave themselves, but do not let them die. When, in the fullness of time, their body starts to break down their fate can be decided one of two ways. If, say, they have cancer let the disease take its course. Most forms of cancer, at the end-game, are horrible ways to go. If, on the other hand, they have a heart attack and, again, their suffering is something you relish revive them. Do not fix their heart, but do not let them die. So, for instance, if we are talking about someone who is arrested in their thirties they may be looking at another thirty, forty, possibly fifty years in prison. They have longed for death as the only possible surcease of the soul-killing, mind-numbing, unchanging, routine of monotony. And now, after decades of waiting they finally think that their meeting with Death has finally come and their one means of escape has opened up to them and you snatch it away.

You know what the most devious part of this is? You cannot even give them something to hate. This prison does not go out of its way to make the inmates lives miserable. No one is tortured, not in any conventional sense of the term. But they are cut off from the things that make us human. They need no books or exercise. They need no facilitation of their religion. They need no visitors, no contact with the outside world except their lawyers if some new evidence comes to light. The guards in this prison would, as far as possible, be removed from them so that the prisoners do not even have that contact. There are no recreation facilities, no sports. No art. No music. No games. No cards. No cigarettes. If it is not absolutely required to maintain metabolic functions at a nominal capacity, it is forbidden. I am not talking about an evil place, I am talking about a place that is it to be absolutely and completely impersonal. They will never again feel anything like human warmth.

The prison I am talking about is like exile but without even the hope that you could find another tribe.

If someone does something inhuman, let them live out the rest of their days under conditions that are as far removed from human as is possible. If it were ever possible to completely automate the place so that there need not be human guards *inside* the facility (while still being outside to prevent anyone from escaping) all the better.

Whatever you might want to say about me, having sympathy for the worst of criminals is not it.

*(If lifting out of the gravity well ever becomes inexpensive, I would suggest putting prisons on the moon. There is no possibility of escape, any attempt would bring the absolute certainty of death one way or another--where can you run? )

Cheers
Aj

i'm diggin it....and know that the possibility of it happening is about as likely as America ever being fair and just.

[JustJo]

Not snarky, but a real question....

So, in this barren, inhumane, devoid of anything worth living for place that Aj describes....what happens to that same wrongfully convicted person?

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by JustJo

Not snarky, but a real question....

So, in this barren, inhumane, devoid of anything worth living for place that Aj describes....what happens to that same wrongfully convicted person?

They suffer. That's what happens. But if evidence comes to light that would exonerate them, they can be released. Now, that depends upon some evidence coming to light but it at least holds out the possibility.

Now, I'm not sure what kind of person would emerge from this place. It might take some adjustment. There is no way to design a penal system where people are truly punished without the problem of there being innocent people inside that system. But if they are alive, they can be retrieved and hopefully, the human spirit is resilient enough to overcome even that. If they are dead, they are completely irretrievable.

We should build a criminal justice system that is as robust and accurate as it is possible to design and which gives to the defendant the means to establish their innocence if they are, indeed, innocent. That way we can minimize the chances of innocents being subjected to an environment that is, as you so accurately put it, devoid of any reason to live.

The difference is whether we can retrieve someone from our being error-prone or social prejudice.

Cheers
Aj

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Yes, lock them up someplace where they will never again walk free. Keep them in a room where there is enough room for them stand up and lay down. Let their remaining years be a monotonous cycle of getting up, back breaking work, and food that sustains, and let the only thing they have to look forward to is the surety that the next day will contain only the same. Let this place be somewhere from which there is no possibility of escape.* Let them know that barring actual acquittal, they will never again be free and they will die in this prison, alone, nothing more than a number and an entry in a database. Let them know all of that.

You can only kill someone once. If you imprison them, however, you do that for every miserable and monotonous day that they live. Prison does not have to be medieval dungeon filled with the screams of the tortured to be a horrible place. You can create a prison that is filled with such sheer mind-numbing monotony, devoid of creativity in any form, that anyone who had to live in that environment, day after day, year after year, would come in short order to pray for death. If after a time, they wish to kill themselves either you let them or if you really believe that they should truly suffer, then medically intervene, going to whatever heroic efforts you think appropriate, to keep them alive. Let them live with whatever scars they leave themselves, but do not let them die. When, in the fullness of time, their body starts to break down their fate can be decided one of two ways. If, say, they have cancer let the disease take its course. Most forms of cancer, at the end-game, are horrible ways to go. If, on the other hand, they have a heart attack and, again, their suffering is something you relish revive them. Do not fix their heart, but do not let them die. So, for instance, if we are talking about someone who is arrested in their thirties they may be looking at another thirty, forty, possibly fifty years in prison. They have longed for death as the only possible surcease of the soul-killing, mind-numbing, unchanging, routine of monotony. And now, after decades of waiting they finally think that their meeting with Death has finally come and their one means of escape has opened up to them and you snatch it away.

You know what the most devious part of this is? You cannot even give them something to hate. This prison does not go out of its way to make the inmates lives miserable. No one is tortured, not in any conventional sense of the term. But they are cut off from the things that make us human. They need no books or exercise. They need no facilitation of their religion. They need no visitors, no contact with the outside world except their lawyers if some new evidence comes to light. The guards in this prison would, as far as possible, be removed from them so that the prisoners do not even have that contact. There are no recreation facilities, no sports. No art. No music. No games. No cards. No cigarettes. If it is not absolutely required to maintain metabolic functions at a nominal capacity, it is forbidden. I am not talking about an evil place, I am talking about a place that is it to be absolutely and completely impersonal. They will never again feel anything like human warmth.

The prison I am talking about is like exile but without even the hope that you could find another tribe.

If someone does something inhuman, let them live out the rest of their days under conditions that are as far removed from human as is possible. If it were ever possible to completely automate the place so that there need not be human guards *inside* the facility (while still being outside to prevent anyone from escaping) all the better.

Whatever you might want to say about me, having sympathy for the worst of criminals is not it.

*(If lifting out of the gravity well ever becomes inexpensive, I would suggest putting prisons on the moon. There is no possibility of escape, any attempt would bring the absolute certainty of death one way or another--where can you run? )

Cheers
Aj

Isn't this the line of thinking that caused Australia to be populated by non-indiginous people?

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Isn't this the line of thinking that caused Australia to be populated by non-indiginous people?

Actually, no. Australia was both exile and colonization by another name. I'm not talking about exile. While an island is a perfect example a very secure prison can be built on the mainland as we already know. There was, in fact, possibility of human hope in Australia. There was variety. People could have human interactions. What I describe is nothing like that. Outside of the basics of medical care and sustenance, I'm talking a prison devoid of any other thing that makes life worth living. The idea with Australian penal colonies was to expand the the British empire. The prisoners would be going nowhere and outside of the exemption of their lawyer with new information, they would never again have contact with a living person from outside the walls of that prison.

Australia, a person could have hope. Outside of the truly innocent, who through some majestic act of will hold on to hope, no inmate would ever have anything to hope for again. There's no parole. There's no getting out unless you were actually innocent. Your sentence is up, when your life is over.

None of that is remotely like what happened in Australia. Even exile would offer more to hope for than this prison environment. At least in exile, you might be able to find a quiet place in the wilderness where you could live out your days. This isn't even that.

Cheers
Aj

[Medusa]

I am absolutely, unequivocally opposed to the death penalty under all circumstances.

It actually scares the shit out of me that we live in a world where other people get to decide if someone lives or dies based on breaking rules of society.

Now, before anyone twitches, Im not at all saying that people who rape, murder, commit child molestation, etc. don't need to be punished, but I am greatly bothered by different people receiving the death penalty based on the systemic oppressions in our world.

For example, adultery is punishable by death in countries such as Yemen and Iran. If adultery is defined as "sex outside of marriage", I would venture to guess that a great many of us would be dead had we lived in those countries.

Is it fucked up that these countries kill grown adults who want to have sex with one another consensually? I think so.

Now think about this, homosexuality is punishable by death in countries such as Yemen and some parts of Nigeria. 100% of the people on this website would be dead if we lived in those countries.
Is that fucked up?
I think so, but those are the laws of those countries.

My point is that I don't think that human beings, no matter their level of education, class, creed, or history, have a right to put another human being to death. Punish the shit out of them? Yes. Throw them in prison? Yes. Rehabilitate them? Yes.

Kill them? Not for me, no.

I think about the thousands of men of Color in the prison systems in this country and how the crimes they committed were often perpetrated under an oppressive and intentional system of power abuse. Does that mean that these people aren't responsible for their crimes? Absolutely not. I think that if you are an adult and you rob, rape, murder, etc. then you have to pay for your crimes.

Do I believe that many of these men raped, robbed, or murdered because they were trying (in a fucked up way) to gain power? Maybe.

Again, not diminishing the fact that there are people in this world who do terrible, evil things. There are.

Still, I think about the people who do terrible things because of what they have been through, people who are wrongfully accused, people who are mentally ill and still put to death.

I think of those people and know that there is a better, more humane way.