Obama's Public Support of Michael Vick

[dreadgeek]

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that Mr. Vick be allowed to own another dog. I just don't think that he should spend the rest of his life in jail, be completely unemployable or, as Mr. Carlson suggested on TV, be executed. That is a far cry from suggesting that the man should own pets.

While I know that some here might think I'm being hyperbolic about the employment, I am willing to bet that if Mr. Vick were banned from playing in the NFL for life and got a job coaching at, say, a high school the same people here who want to see him continually punished would then say "how can he be allowed to teach at a high school?!" If he got a job as a street sweeper, a hue and cry would be raised. Once you've decided that someone should pay and pay and pay there is very little that will be granted to that person in the future. If the best Mr. Vick could do was working the grill at McDonald's there would be people who would say that they would NEVER AGAIN patronize a McDonald's because of his employment there.

Cheers
Aj

Originally Posted by suebee

Interesting article on the legal considerations of Michael Vick's ban on owning animals. CLICK HERE

In regards to the severity of Vick's crimes, I found the following part of the article to be particularily interesting:
"The ongoing nature of his conduct remains serious cause for concern and understandably contributes to the enduring distrust of his repeated public assertions of remorse and reformation. Some additional yet basic risk factors one should consider in assessing Mr. Vick’s case and the continuing threat convicted abusers present to society include:

1.The vulnerability of his victims;
2.The large number of his victims;
3.The number of victimizing incidents;
4.The severity of the injury and methods used to kill;
5.The duration of the abuse;
6.The degree of pre-planning or premeditation;
7.The existence of other criminal conduct at the scene of the animal abuse (e.g., drugs, gun law violations, gambling);
8.The fact that this offender served as an instigator of criminal acts involving multiple other perpetrators; and
9.The offender’s history of positive interactions with the victim animal(s) prior to the abuse.
In light of these factors, it is difficult to discern how Mr. Vick’s supporters could reasonably believe that he should be allowed to exercise control over another dog. The Animal Legal Defense Fund strongly disagrees with that view and recommends the longest possible ban on ownership be maintained. Whether his supporters are truly concerned about animal welfare or just too invested in Mr. Vick’s “comeback” to give a damn about the fate of the next dog who comes under Mr. Vick’s control—you will have to decide for yourself."

[suebee]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that Mr. Vick be allowed to own another dog. I just don't think that he should spend the rest of his life in jail, be completely unemployable or, as Mr. Carlson suggested on TV, be executed. That is a far cry from suggesting that the man should own pets.

While I know that some here might think I'm being hyperbolic about the employment, I am willing to bet that if Mr. Vick were banned from playing in the NFL for life and got a job coaching at, say, a high school the same people here who want to see him continually punished would then say "how can he be allowed to teach at a high school?!" If he got a job as a street sweeper, a hue and cry would be raised. Once you've decided that someone should pay and pay and pay there is very little that will be granted to that person in the future. If the best Mr. Vick could do was working the grill at McDonald's there would be people who would say that they would NEVER AGAIN patronize a McDonald's because of his employment there.

Cheers
Aj

I haven't seen anybody here propose that either. But believe it or not, (and I hope I've got the right organization here - I'll come back and correct myself if I find out otherwise) the ASPCA has spoken up as feeling that Vick is ready to own another dog. Obviously this greatly upsets many in the rescue community.

As for employment: the man CERTAINLY has a right to provide for himself and his family. Should social stigma follow him and perhaps prevent him from working in some jobs? It depends upon your personal values. The severity of his crimes were the reason why I posted the article. I abhor people who buy a dog and then tie it out in the back yard and throw food at it once a day. But THAT is negligence, and ignorance. Michael Vick tortured and killed HUNDREDS of dogs. He knew full well that it was illegal. He hid his crimes. In my world that makes him a dispicable human being. He has the right to gainful employment, but I wouldn't hire him, nor would I support any business that did. That's freedom of expression.

ETA: Obviously there are many people who ARE ready to support him, or at least forget about his crimes, as I haven't heard anything about the Eagles stands being empty for their games.

[BullDog]

Why don't people get all up in arms when football players physically and sexually abuse women? I've been on butch femme websites for like 11 or 12 years now and never seen anything, but I've seen multiple threads about Vick.

[Daywalker]

Actually there have been threads about that Bully.
But they were not specifically Football players.
ie~ Mike Tyson, etc.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Daywalker

Actually there have been threads about that Bully.
But they were not specifically Football players.
ie~ Mike Tyson, etc.

Well I am glad if people spoke out about Mike Tyson mistreating women. I am, however, talking about something systemic- something that happens over and over and over again (i.e. football players abusing women). Since it's in the news on a fairly frequent basis and there's lots of football fans here, I find it a bit strange that people put so much focus on Vick but I haven't seen discussions about things that happen much more frequently to women at the hands of many players and not just one.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Well I am glad if people spoke out about Mike Tyson mistreating women. I am, however, talking about something systemic- something that happens over and over and over again (i.e. football players abusing women). Since it's in the news on a fairly frequent basis and there's lots of football fans here, I find it a bit strange that people put so much focus on Vick but I haven't seen discussions about things that happen much more frequently to women at the hands of many players and not just one.

But then we'd have to have the discussion about how Fame/Professional Sports/The Music Industry supports behavior in men that it would never support in women (and then inherent ingrained sexism as the root of it all)

[betenoire]

IF - you can't deny that within some circles (queer females and young urban hipsters specifically come to mind) that it is currently VERY cool to be vegan/vegetarian yadda yadda yadda.

I am not criticizing that. I myself am a big fan/lover of animals (as you know, I'm sure, all of the cats I've had since I was an adult (except for my orange tabby) have been strays or rescued (stolen in one case) from abusive/neglectful situations). My parents took in abandoned dogs while I was in highschool. I still have nightmares about the fur farm video from China that Rhon posted on livejournal fucking YEARS ago.

That said: there is no ignoring the fact that -many- of the hipsters I mentioned above postulate about what friends of the animal they are (oh, and the environment. recycling is also hip.) but completely ignore issues around HUMANS who also need our defense.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by betenoire

IF - you can't deny that within some circles (queer females and young urban hipsters specifically come to mind) that it is currently VERY cool to be vegan/vegetarian yadda yadda yadda.

I am not criticizing that. I myself am a big fan/lover of animals (as you know, I'm sure, all of the cats I've had since I was an adult (except for my orange tabby) have been strays or rescued (stolen in one case) from abusive/neglectful situations). My parents took in abandoned dogs while I was in highschool. I still have nightmares about the fur farm video from China that Rhon posted on livejournal fucking YEARS ago.

That said: there is no ignoring the fact that -many- of the hipsters I mentioned above postulate about what friends of the animal they are (oh, and the environment. recycling is also hip.) but completely ignore issues around HUMANS who also need our defense.

I can get behind this thought process to a large degree!

I agree that there is a somewhat pervasive "right now" groove to animal rights, PETA, The Trevor Project, Barefoot running shoes, etc. among young hipster-type Queers. The thinking that to "be" the right kind of Queer or to attract the "right" kind of Queer, that those things are prerequisite.

I used to have a friend who viewed herself as a staunch animal rights advocate and who was vegetarian but wore leather shoes every day, owned a ton of leather furniture, had a purebred dog that she bought from a puppy mill, and loved going to the zoo.

It seemed like she was an animal advocate only to the degree that it wouldn't affect her tastes, comfort, or entertainment value.

This isn't an either/or issue, but rather multi-layered. I see some intersections of race and class with Eurocentric idealization of pet animals. Interesting discussion to say the least.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by betenoire

IF - you can't deny that within some circles (queer females and young urban hipsters specifically come to mind) that it is currently VERY cool to be vegan/vegetarian yadda yadda yadda.

I am not criticizing that. I myself am a big fan/lover of animals (as you know, I'm sure, all of the cats I've had since I was an adult (except for my orange tabby) have been strays or rescued (stolen in one case) from abusive/neglectful situations). My parents took in abandoned dogs while I was in highschool. I still have nightmares about the fur farm video from China that Rhon posted on livejournal fucking YEARS ago.

That said: there is no ignoring the fact that -many- of the hipsters I mentioned above postulate about what friends of the animal they are (oh, and the environment. recycling is also hip.) but completely ignore issues around HUMANS who also need our defense.

Bete...

Actually - While I was not directing it at you... You were the perfect response.

YES I cannot agree more with you. It is COOL to be all of the above. I do believe people jump on the band wagon for a variety of reasons. Acceptance or whatever! I am glad they do. I do not really care if they are doing it because it is the thing to do or not. I just want results.

I do know how you love animals... And I absolutely KNOW you DO NOT support any of this.

It's not that different than the surge of lesbianism (lol love that word). It's cool!

Sadly, something else will come up - Vick will be out of the spotlight and something new will come up. It is how our world works - but for now... I am glad this is in the spotlight. Maybe this will force our law enforcement (in this fucking country) to close more of these rings down.

[Daywalker]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Well I am glad if people spoke out about Mike Tyson mistreating women. I am, however, talking about something systemic- something that happens over and over and over again (i.e. football players abusing women). Since it's in the news on a fairly frequent basis and there's lots of football fans here, I find it a bit strange that people put so much focus on Vick but I haven't seen discussions about things that happen much more frequently to women at the hands of many players and not just one.

I get that.

But I don't find it strange.

It was a biggo Headline Media deal ~ hence a thread was birthed.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Daywalker

It was a biggo Headline Media deal ~ hence a thread was birthed.

The fact that the Vick thing got tonnes of media attention and the other crimes of NFL players didn't is symptomatic of a bigger problem.

Anyway! You kids have fun! I gotta get offline because I'm ignoring my spouse and playing on BFP which is impolite of me.

[Tucker]

http://blogs.bestfriends.org/index.p...the-vick-dogs/

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by suebee

Let's make a comparison. Bully has brought up the topic of abuse of women. Would you support a team that re-hired a quarterback that had beat up his wife or girlfriend? What about if he had beaten up HUNDREDS of women? What if he'd tortured them, had a "rape machine" so that they could be immobilized for sexual intercourse, electrocuted them, and then killed them when they were no longer of use to him? THIS is the magnitude of Vick's crimes.

Now you're reaching.

I love dogs. But certainly I feel that the assault of one woman is more important than the abuse of hundreds of dogs. It doesn't have to be hundred of women by one man for it to be abhorrent.

We -are- more important (to me) than dogs are.

Originally Posted by JustJo

But, honestly, to compare forced breeding of dogs (which we do all the time with all kinds of animals) to the rape of women? Sorry...it doesn't fly for me.

For fucking real.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Why don't people get all up in arms when football players physically and sexually abuse women? I've been on butch femme websites for like 11 or 12 years now and never seen anything, but I've seen multiple threads about Vick.

Because people are fucked up and have zero priorities.

Because animal rights are very en vogue right now.

[Julie]

Actually...
PETA was founded in 1980 - It was very UnVogue!

I was part of the movement in the early 80's in NYC - though I did not personally throw RED paint on fur wearers (My father refused to bail me out of jail). I wanted to!

Though after watching a documentary on Mink Farms - he refused to own another fur and threw my mothers coats away! (Thank you Daddy!) It was very UnVogue.

There is nothing VOGUE about caring about the treatment of animals. It is about respecting LIFE!

Have you ever visited a mink farm?
It will change your life forever.
See a baby cow get slaughtered?
It will change your life forever.

(feeling a bit derailing - sorry)

[The_Lady_Snow]

The system gives children back to abusive parents or households back, I have to ask why an animal has priority over our countries kids. You can see a child be slapped at a Target- that happens at Pet Smart the cops are called & your dog is taken away.

I pray he changed but this witch hunt on a black man and now death is wished upon him is just as gross if not even MORE gross than what he's done.


Why?

It's been done in this country since it's start.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Why don't people get all up in arms when football players physically and sexually abuse women? I've been on butch femme websites for like 11 or 12 years now and never seen anything, but I've seen multiple threads about Vick.

Feel free to start one.

Before our President calls an NFL team and congratulates them on hiring a player recently released from prison on a domestic abuse or rape conviction.



Meanwhile, here's something I didn't know about. Lip service?

NFL Players Association Joins Justice Department Effort to Raise Awareness Around Violence Against Women

February 4, 2010

The Justice Department today announced that the National Football League Players Association (NFLPA) has joined its year-long campaign to commemorate the 15 year anniversary of President Bill Clinton signing the Violence Against Women Act (VAWA) into law. The NFLPA has "Joined the List," a group of more than 100 celebrities including actors, musicians and athletes, who have lent their names to raise awareness with their fans, through Web and fan sites, and social networking profiles.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Meanwhile, here's something I didn't know about. Lip service?

NFL Players Association Joins Justice Department Effort to Raise Awareness Around Violence Against Women

February 4, 2010

The Justice Department today announced that the National Football League Players Association (NFLPA) has joined its year-long campaign to commemorate the 15 year anniversary of President Bill Clinton signing the Violence Against Women Act (VAWA) into law. The NFLPA has "Joined the List," a group of more than 100 celebrities including actors, musicians and athletes, who have lent their names to raise awareness with their fans, through Web and fan sites, and social networking profiles.

Oh good grief.

I don't even know how to respond to that.

I guess it's easier to put your name on a list and "raise awareness" than to actually demonstrate commitment through action.

[Waldo]

Originally Posted by betenoire

IF - you can't deny that within some circles (queer females and young urban hipsters specifically come to mind) that it is currently VERY cool to be vegan/vegetarian yadda yadda yadda.

I am not criticizing that. I myself am a big fan/lover of animals (as you know, I'm sure, all of the cats I've had since I was an adult (except for my orange tabby) have been strays or rescued (stolen in one case) from abusive/neglectful situations). My parents took in abandoned dogs while I was in highschool. I still have nightmares about the fur farm video from China that Rhon posted on livejournal fucking YEARS ago.

That said: there is no ignoring the fact that -many- of the hipsters I mentioned above postulate about what friends of the animal they are (oh, and the environment. recycling is also hip.) but completely ignore issues around HUMANS who also need our defense.

First... as a member of the vegan brigade I can tell you that the overwhelming majority of my fellow vegans are straight. And there's a good number of men in the mix too. It's in the spotlight now not because it's hip... cause it's still not. But because animal welfare and factory farming is in the spotlight and that makes it much easier to draw the conclusions that eating meat is neither necessary nor sustainable for our planet. Being vegan is still so uncool that many people who go vegan are ridiculed for their choices, are screwed with by cooks and servers, are left off party invitations because hosts feel at a loss for what to serve (even when we're happy to bring something) or aren't invited out for meals as often because people freak out about where to go.

But what REALLY upsets me about your post is that you fail to see the reason why there's a need for animal advocates which is distinct and different from anti-violence advocates:

Humans have the ability to communicate atrocities, specific and en masse, which animals lack.

I've yet to meet a vegan who doesn't feel passionately about the welfare of all beings. We just feel it's important that we act as a proxy voice for animals, who have none.

Originally Posted by Medusa

I can get behind this thought process to a large degree!

I agree that there is a somewhat pervasive "right now" groove to animal rights, PETA, The Trevor Project, Barefoot running shoes, etc. among young hipster-type Queers. The thinking that to "be" the right kind of Queer or to attract the "right" kind of Queer, that those things are prerequisite.

I used to have a friend who viewed herself as a staunch animal rights advocate and who was vegetarian but wore leather shoes every day, owned a ton of leather furniture, had a purebred dog that she bought from a puppy mill, and loved going to the zoo.

It seemed like she was an animal advocate only to the degree that it wouldn't affect her tastes, comfort, or entertainment value.

This isn't an either/or issue, but rather multi-layered. I see some intersections of race and class with Eurocentric idealization of pet animals. Interesting discussion to say the least.

Medusa, I feel strongly that you've either missed something in your own argument or I have and in further readings, maybe I'm just confused and are actually saying something I agree with.

You agree with what's being said that veg*nism is en vogue and seem to be dissing people who have chosen not only to talk the talk, but the walk the walk of eschewing all animal products and then follow it up with an example where you diss someone who claimed to be an animal advocate but missed the fact that she continued to use animal products regularly.

Again, humans can consent. Animals cannot, nor are they afforded the option to.

I think Vick has been demonized to a greater extent because of the color of his skin and I think he's been forgiven to a great deal because of his prowess on the football field. He's lauded by some as a hero because he's both male and an athlete. All of these things bring intersection from class, race, privilege and money.

Had he (and who knows if he does/doesn't or has/hasn't) raped or abused women... those women had the physical capability to tell someone else, a friend, the authorities, the news. Whether they felt strong enough to do so or not is another issue.

The dogs that Vick abused had to rely on a human being (an advocate) to do the right thing. To realize that what Vick did was heinous and report it.

I've stepped in front of man with a knife who was beating his girlfriend senseless. I still can't hear out of one ear as a result of that. I call the cops when I hear screams. I've even run out of the house (like a moron) when I hear gun shots. All because I give a shit about my fellow humans.

I've also stopped in the middle of a busy intersection during a nor'easter to shepherd a lost dog safely back to his owner. I've jumped into a lake in order to save a cat who was FREAKING out. I've put out food and water for innumerable neighborhood cats and I've even rescued a "stray" rooster in Chicago.

I don't make distinctions about whether another living being deserves my compassion or not. I know they do and all I need to know is that I have the capability to help.

I make no representations that I am better than anyone else. We all make our choices. I wish that everyone would reduce their dependence on animal products. I wish that everyone would at least educate themselves about factory farming. My decision to be vegan wasn't based on it's coolness factor, it was based around living a more purposeful and aware life where my decisions about what to put in my body and what products to use match my stated/voiced ethos. I'm still imperfect in my veganism. I slipped up just about two weeks ago and forgot that pork came in a dish I ordered. I still own some leather shoes. Is it sensible to throw them out or to wear them until they are unusable? I'll probably split the difference and donate them this year as I move further and further toward my vegan ideal.

/soapbox

[Waldo]

And if I didn't have to run off to a lunch date I would be opening a new thread on animal welfare/veganism so I can stop derailing this one. Maybe tonight.