Ode to Butches

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I feel annoyed.

Oh hey, me too!

I feel annoyed that this thread is posted in a forum subtitled "For all things butch," but then provides a limited definition of a single subset of butch.

I feel annoyed at the way the same handful of butches seem to feel the need to moderate all conversations about butch from their own perspective of what butch is/is not.

I feel annoyed that the most interesting conversations spawned by this otherwise clichéd "ode" have devolved into yet another battle in the on-going gender war, instead of pursuit of those avenues of discourse.

I feel annoyed that the same person, Wildcat, continues to rant about antagonists, derailing, and the agendas of others while clearly doing exactly the same thing with those kinds of posts. Word: When people disagree with you, or come at a thing from a different place they aren't necessarily antagonizing - they're stating their opinion, speaking from their experience, which is no less valid than yours or that of those who think just like you. Maybe you are full of peace, love and lentils, but it ain't necessarily coming across in your words and effusive punctuation.

What I think *feels* most annoying, is that so much energy is spent on this site talking about our differences and inability to understand one another, that it's a wonder to me that we need this, or any other, site at all in order to engage in "community." What all this feels like to me is an elbowing for space, jockeying for territory and a whole lot of denial.

Kosmo, you mention sabotage - I might want to agree with you, as it seems the same few do, in fact, reappear in thread after thread, attempting to speak for butch. Here's news, they don't own butch, and they sure as hell don't speak for all that is butch.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Oh hey, me too!

I feel annoyed that this thread is posted in a forum subtitled "For all things butch," but then provides a limited definition of a single subset of butch.

I feel annoyed at the way the same handful of butches seem to feel the need to moderate all conversations about butch from their own perspective of what butch is/is not.

I feel annoyed that the most interesting conversations spawned by this otherwise clichéd "ode" have devolved into yet another battle in the on-going gender war, instead of pursuit of those avenues of discourse.

I feel annoyed that the same person, Wildcat, continues to rant about antagonists, derailing, and the agendas of others while clearly doing exactly the same thing with those kinds of posts. Word: When people disagree with you, or come at a thing from a different place they aren't necessarily antagonizing - they're stating their opinion, speaking from their experience, which is no less valid than yours or that of those who think just like you. Maybe you are full of peace, love and lentils, but it ain't necessarily coming across in your words and effusive punctuation.

What I think *feels* most annoying, is that so much energy is spent on this site talking about our differences and inability to understand one another, that it's a wonder to me that we need this, or any other, site at all in order to engage in "community." What all this feels like to me is an elbowing for space, jockeying for territory and a whole lot of denial.

Kosmo, you mention sabotage - I might want to agree with you, as it seems the same few do, in fact, reappear in thread after thread, attempting to speak for butch. Here's news, they don't own butch, and they sure as hell don't speak for all that is butch.

The Ode was allegedly penned to Butch Women, but as a butch of a different stripe if you appreciate it, by all means please let us know how you feel.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

The Ode was allegedly penned to Butch Women, but as a butch of a different stripe if you appreciate it, by all means please let us know how you feel.

I've only seen so obvious an elitism expressed around our (denied) "hierarchies" whenever femmes pat-pat and welcome transwomen into their spaces with that little discomfort they try to hide behind their eyes and under their voices.

I'm sure someone was just "taking up too much space."

[SuperFemme]

Isn't an "Ode to <insert subject matter" a very personal diatribe from one person about something? From a very personal viewpoint. Trying to apply this to a group as a blanket is kind of silly. Take Beethovens Ode to Joy. Love that piece but MY Ode to Joy would look/sound much different. My Ode to Femme would be way way different than a butchs (of any flavor). Perhaps we not need bulldoze over others Odes to make them fit the general us?

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Isn't an "Ode to <insert subject matter" a very personal diatribe from one person about something? From a very personal viewpoint. Trying to apply this to a group as a blanket is kind of silly. Take Beethovens Ode to Joy. Love that piece but MY Ode to Joy would look/sound much different. My Ode to Femme would be way way different than a butchs (of any flavor). Perhaps we not need bulldoze over others Odes to make them fit the general us?

I know Wikipedia isn't always correct but in order to cite my source about the word Ode:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ode

noted that it says an Ode is dedicated to someone or something....

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy

I know Wikipedia isn't always correct but in order to cite my source about the word Ode:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ode

noted that it says an Ode is dedicated to someone or something....

Thanks for the lesson. I am quite aware of what an Ode is, and yes I was indeed pointing out that it is to someone or something. My point is that the Ode comes from ONE persons views of that someone or something and is usually from within the realm of the writers life experience. Not the world at large.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Thanks for the lesson. I am quite aware of what an Ode is, and yes I was indeed pointing out that it is to someone or something. My point is that the Ode comes from ONE persons views of that someone or something and is usually from within the realm of the writers life experience. Not the world at large.

No problem and yes you would be right that it does come from ONE person and ONE person only views.

I thought maybe some linkage may help is all

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

The Ode was allegedly penned to Butch Women, but as a butch of a different stripe if you appreciate it, by all means please let us know how you feel.

Right, see my first point. And thanks for giving me the ok to post here, I wasn't aware your approval was necessary, though you certainly spend a lot of time moderating the direction of the conversation.

I think my third point (damn, should have used bullets) makes it clear what I think of the OP when I called it "clichéd." I agree with Kim, "it was full of stereotypes, and certainly didn't accurately describe any butch that I've ever known."

What I do find interesting is the avenue of dialog (albeit one some people have attempted to divert) with regard to butches and male attraction. Hell yeah - I find that shit fascinating!

I am intrigued by male attraction to butches, gay men, sure, but what I find most compelling is heterosexual male sexual attraction to butch. On at least one level, it interests me for the ways in which it validates the argument for sexuality existing on a continuum. We're talking about a "straight" man sexually attracted to another masculine presence. Not gay, but gay? I want to dissect that, put it under a microscope and take pictures. Sure, that's not what the OP was talking about, but the dialog has attempted to take us there, and I for one don't understand all the defensiveness surrounding it.

Heterosexual men have hit on me in the past, and it doesn't make me question my own masculinity or sexuality - I never feel threatened in that way - but it sure as shootin' makes me question theirs. I don't judge them, but I'm decidedly curious and have yet to find a man with whom I could have that conversation.

Originally Posted by evolveme

I'm sure someone was just "taking up too much space."

So just elbow them out!

[BullDog]

Mister Bent have fun talking about whatever it is you want to talk about.

I have only objected to people putting thoughts and feelings into my and other butches heads.

Oh and I never said who could or couldn't post here, so don't throw that crap at me. It's not sticking.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Mister Bent have fun talking about whatever it is you want to talk about.

I have only objected to people putting thoughts and feelings into my and other butches heads.

Oh and I never said who could or couldn't post here, so don't through that crap at me. It's not sticking.

This denial and dismissiveness from you has become as predictable as villagers with pitchforks.

Maybe you haven't noticed that I'm not the only person to call you out on your behavior.

"I have only objected to people putting thoughts and feelings into my and other butches heads."

I clearly object to you speaking for "other butches," as I am one. Maybe if you spoke from your "I" place and called it quits there.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

This denial and dismissiveness from you has become as predictable as villagers with pitchforks.

Maybe you haven't noticed that I'm not the only person to call you out on your behavior.

"I have only objected to people putting thoughts and feelings into my and other butches heads."

I clearly object to you speaking for "other butches," as I am one. Maybe if you spoke from your "I" place and called it quits there.

I don't appreciate being told that I am in some sort of panic. It wasn't implied just about me.

Should I tell you how you are feeling?

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I don't appreciate being told that I am in some sort of panic. It wasn't implied just about me.

Should I tell you how you are feeling?

It would be irrelevant.

Frankly, my interest in this thread isn't the number of times in which you opted to speak for butch (the one example you provided isn't the sole) nor the number of times you've attempted to police the conversation.

I took the time to compose a post with regard to what I do find compelling, and that's the conversation I'd be willing to continue.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Mister Bent have fun talking about whatever it is you want to talk about.

This is the part where I take a tangential little side road to talk about debate, yet again, because for me, these spaces are more networks than communities and while networks are highly meaningful spaces in emotional and other ways, it is important that they also be useful ones. If we are to engage, ever, on substantive issues - as we appear to be doing in this thread (again, around the topic of "identity" and what-all that can mean for us individually and collectively), it is important that we attempt to adhere to some basic principles of debate.

I'm not picking on you, Bulldog, and as I've said to you before - whether you choose to believe it or not - I do respect you - but what you have just illustrated above is, again, something I've heard called "conversational cowardice" (thank you, Honeychile). Simply dropping a line like this and ceasing the effort of constructive engagement may make you feel better, it may offer you some form of emotional release, but it is poor form, man! It offers nothing toward the argument (yours or anyone's) and it is, in a word: rude.

I strongly advise against it.

We can all snark. Some of us could win fucking Tony Awards in snarkery, and personally, I think where snark is dead, so is dialogue, but come on, let us keep the conversation going. Dropping a line such as the above and walking out serves no one. Least of all the passion behind the beliefs with which you chose to pick up the thread of debate in the first place.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by evolveme

This is the part where I take a tangential little side road to talk about debate, yet again, because for me, these spaces are more networks than communities and while networks are highly meaningful spaces in emotional and other ways, it is important that they also be useful ones. If we are to engage, ever, on substantive issues - as we appear to be doing in this thread (again, around the topic of "identity" and what-all that can mean for us individually and collectively), it is important that we attempt to adhere to some basic principles of debate.

I'm not picking on you, Bulldog, and as I've said to you before - whether you choose to believe it or not - I do respect you - but what you have just illustrated above is, again, something I've heard called "conversational cowardice" (thank you, Honeychile). Simply dropping a line like this and ceasing the effort of constructive engagement may make you feel better, it may offer you some form of emotional release, but it is poor form, man! It offers nothing toward the argument (yours or anyone's) and it is, in a word: rude.

I strongly advise against it.

We can all snark. Some of us could win fucking Tony Awards in snarkery, and personally, I think where snark is dead, so is dialogue, but come on, let us keep the conversation going. Dropping a line such as the above and walking out serves no one. Least of all the passion behind the beliefs with which you chose to pick up the thread of debate in the first place.

I am not policing the thread. Mister Bent is free to talk about whatever he wants.

I see no attempt at meaningful dialogue or constructive engagement with me.

[WILDCAT]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Oh hey, me too!

I feel annoyed that this thread is posted in a forum subtitled "For all things butch," but then provides a limited definition of a single subset of butch.

I feel annoyed at the way the same handful of butches seem to feel the need to moderate all conversations about butch from their own perspective of what butch is/is not.

I feel annoyed that the most interesting conversations spawned by this otherwise clichéd "ode" have devolved into yet another battle in the on-going gender war, instead of pursuit of those avenues of discourse.

I feel annoyed that the same person, Wildcat, continues to rant about antagonists, derailing, and the agendas of others while clearly doing exactly the same thing with those kinds of posts. Word: When people disagree with you, or come at a thing from a different place they aren't necessarily antagonizing - they're stating their opinion, speaking from their experience, which is no less valid than yours or that of those who think just like you. Maybe you are full of peace, love and lentils, but it ain't necessarily coming across in your words and effusive punctuation.What I think *feels* most annoying, is that so much energy is spent on this site talking about our differences and inability to understand one another, that it's a wonder to me that we need this, or any other, site at all in order to engage in "community." What all this feels like to me is an elbowing for space, jockeying for territory and a whole lot of denial.

Kosmo, you mention sabotage - I might want to agree with you, as it seems the same few do, in fact, reappear in thread after thread, attempting to speak for butch. Here's news, they don't own butch, and they sure as hell don't speak for all that is butch.

___

Mr. Bent, you are completely in the wrong here. No, I wasn't in any "rant".

My last two posts here were trying to be peaceful and community caring - whether you believe me or not, I don't care. I was speaking in a generalized way, except for what I specifically addressed to Mz.S. Which, quite frankly, is none of your business. I was talking about "me". Men and "me". To her. I welcome feedback, but this was uncalled for.

But, this is single most rudest thing anyone has ever written to/about me since I've been on either of the Butch/femme sites, since... Oct. of Nov. 07 (I believe that's correct).

So thank you. What else can I say to that? This couldn't be more off the mark either, but it says alot about you and your personality here - to me. In fact, it kind of validates my concern about folks being nasty here.

I haven't directed anything to you at all. Or again, anyone here today, but one post. Mz S. your response to me seemed full of anger, and was quite pissy as well. I wrote you a nice true from my heart response with spirit of community. What are you few so angry about? I've done nothing to anyone here and try to be fair minded and welcoming of all.

Screw anyone who doesn't like my letter writing style. Or, how I express myself. That is very nasty too. Sleep well on that. Christ that sounds like grade school shit. Are you upset because ONE TIME I wrote to you on a thread and said "it felt like you try and then take it back"? That is my ONLY history with you here on this entire site, so what right do you have coming after me like this? Where are your manners?

And I don't like lentils, thanks for the sarcastic inference there about folk's lifestyles or whatever that meant to you. You do not know me AT ALL. That was senseless.

Peace be with you in the new year. And I mean that. And to you folks who thank this kind of stuff too, I don't appreciate it. But, good for you.

Wildcat

*I stand by my posts. Thank you.

[Linus]

All right. It's been asked over and over again to get back into topic.

Since no one will, this thread is closed.

There is a handful of you here who seem to dislike each other. I'm going to strongly suggest that you all put each other on ignore (go to your User CP --> Edit Ignore list --> put the person who annoys you into the list and hit Okay). This kind of sniping and ad hominim attacks are unnecessary.

If you cannot learn to step back, I'm sure we can find a way to help you with this if necessary.

Now... where'd my burst vein get to??