OFOS Butches & Femmes

[cuddlyfemme]

Bringing back this thread!

[Jet]

This is where it rings....fuck everything else

[Leigh]

Its good to see this thread again

[Nightshade]

I don't know how I missed this thread before! In fact, is there another one like it with zero responses? I thought I saw that.

Regardless, I wish I weren't reading this on my phone while at work! I want to go through and savor the entire thread! Sigh.

I hope it stays active, and I'll try to do my part.

Nightshade

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Toughy

I want to see her out in her glory.....tits showing, slit up the side of her leg skirt, shoes that make me wet (I'm a shoe whore, what can I say), looking/acting like sex walking....ok.....mmmm.......I lost my train of thought....oh yeah.....that is an OS femme in my book...one who owns her body and her sexuality and is not afraid to show the world....and fuck em if they don't like it.

I am always puzzled by the linking of 'old fashioned' with 'old school'. They are two different things in my mind. They are not linked together for me. IF they were, then I would be kicking a butch's ass who looked at my date, making butches ask me (not her) if they can dance with her...and a whole lot of other old fashioned ways of treating women.

I came out in what most folks think of as OFOS times...early 70's.....there is a whole bunch of that old school stuff that I hate and most of it is centered in the old fashioned way in which women were treated.

So for me........I am truly old school. But I truly dislike and am not old fashioned.

Actually, if old fashioned = asexual, victorian, patriarchal oppression then I'm right there with you! But I think perhaps that was mostly a socially acceptable facade. The 'passing' front that everyone presented but most didn't live.

Not having lived through it though, it's complete speculation on my part. I can only imagine though that that embodiment of OF as 'prudishness' had to have been more prevalent in heterosexual lives than in the Butch/femme community where waiting for marriage and having sex to procreate simply wasn't a part of the equation.

And while us femmes have always gotten positive (if unwanted) feedback about our desirability, I cling strongly to the ideal that my foremothers carried within their very core the knowledge that it was up to them to show the butches of the world that they too were sexual forces to be reckoned with. That they were wanted. Needed. Craved. Utterly desired beyond all reason. It was in intricate part of the dance.

I refuse to believe that respect and/or sexual hunger was lacking for either party 'back in the day.'

[Converse]

Many relate OFOS as being about the 1950’s B-F communities, who were faced with hostility from a very conservative mainstream society, lending itself to a time of much violence – while others draw on the periods prior to that when Butch identity concerned itself with courtesy, chivalry and strength without violence. One context is about oppression, while the other is about codes of behaviour.

We can take almost anything out of context, assigning a meaning that helps to legitimise our argument, but what I think matters is intent.

Do I stay cold so that she doesn’t when I offer her my coat, open and hold the door for her, stand when she does, light her cigarette, curtail my language and expect others to do the same when they are around her, compliment, carry what’s heavy… because I think she isn’t capable, believe that she is so fragile that her sensibilities would never recover from a personal affront, because I believe I am superior? Or do I do it to acknowledge her importance, to place myself second in her presence- Is my intention to try to make her way a little more comfortable in the world or is it to oppress?

For good or for bad, in mainstream society a Butch is rarely inconspicuous, and a Femme is noticed but rarely seen. As a Butch I will honour her, and do what I can to remove the cloak of invisibility, to allow her to be seen as the woman who is deserving of respect and admiration, to be seen as a Femme.

My observations of the world are that the B-F community is becoming one of the last bastions where chivalry still remains. For me, I am happy to be considered old fashioned if the alternative is, as I see around me, a solo dance with everyone on the floor vying for the spotlight.

[AnaLee]

Old school femme here, dropping in to say hello. It's late - I'll be back soon to chat with you fabulous OS folks.
Sweet Thoughts,
Ana

[socialjustice_fsu]

Originally Posted by Converse

Many relate OFOS as being about the 1950’s B-F communities, who were faced with hostility from a very conservative mainstream society, lending itself to a time of much violence – while others draw on the periods prior to that when Butch identity concerned itself with courtesy, chivalry and strength without violence. One context is about oppression, while the other is about codes of behaviour.

We can take almost anything out of context, assigning a meaning that helps to legitimise our argument, but what I think matters is intent.

Do I stay cold so that she doesn’t when I offer her my coat, open and hold the door for her, stand when she does, light her cigarette, curtail my language and expect others to do the same when they are around her, compliment, carry what’s heavy… because I think she isn’t capable, believe that she is so fragile that her sensibilities would never recover from a personal affront, because I believe I am superior? Or do I do it to acknowledge her importance, to place myself second in her presence- Is my intention to try to make her way a little more comfortable in the world or is it to oppress?

For good or for bad, in mainstream society a Butch is rarely inconspicuous, and a Femme is noticed but rarely seen. As a Butch I will honour her, and do what I can to remove the cloak of invisibility, to allow her to be seen as the woman who is deserving of respect and admiration, to be seen as a Femme.

My observations of the world are that the B-F community is becoming one of the last bastions where chivalry still remains. For me, I am happy to be considered old fashioned if the alternative is, as I see around me, a solo dance with everyone on the floor vying for the spotlight.

As with all of your posts, Converse, your point of view is refreshing and spot on. I believe you articulate what many others wish they could. Well written.

sj-fsu

[Martina]

i was at my Dominants' house recently, and They were getting read to go out. It was a dress up occasion. When it was time to leave, Sir held the door for Ma'am. As She stepped through, She said, "How do i look?" Sir replied, "Lovely." It was just a moment, one like a dozen others that week, i am sure, but it caught my eye. It was beautiful.

i like our dynamic best when it is unstudied, when it is less performative, though that can be fun. But that moment when we recognize and appreciate one another -- it's so good.

[Miss Scarlett]

Wonderful post Converse. Thank you.

Being treated like a lady really brings out the woman in me. His gentleman draws her out and she’s very sensitive to him, unconsciously/automatically responding…things just flow naturally. This is a little hard to verbalize – but it also makes me feel different. Very feminine and not in a fru fru sense; I can feel just as feminine in jeans or sweats as in the frilliest of dresses. It’s a yin/yang thing and very beautiful.

[OS Butch]

Good evening. Thought I'd stop by and see what is going on.

OSB

[MadiT]

Hello everyone....stopping in to listen and learn

[OS Butch]

Evening MadiT.

I have been thinking about Old school and how it seems out of style for some. I wonder why. What is so Old Fashion / Old School about chivalry, honor and commitment? Isn't that the way people should treat people?

[Miss Scarlett]

Originally Posted by OS Butch

Evening MadiT.

I have been thinking about Old school and how it seems out of style for some. I wonder why. What is so Old Fashion / Old School about chivalry, honor and commitment? Isn't that the way people should treat people?

I always thought so.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by OS Butch

Evening MadiT.

I have been thinking about Old school and how it seems out of style for some. I wonder why. What is so Old Fashion / Old School about chivalry, honor and commitment? Isn't that the way people should treat people?

I never felt that I could participate in a thread about OFOS. But, some of the posts have helped me pull the threads on a few of the things that resonate with me. I agree, OS Butch, that people should treat one another with chivalry, honor, and commitment.

In my ideal relationship (not dissimilar to the real one), there are all of these qualities. The thing is, for me, the giving goes in both directions. The door holding, the compliments and admiration, the romancing are all reciprocal. Nothing about this undermines the reality that she revels in her butchness and I am completely feminine. It is indeed the yin and yang. It's what I love and cherish in a relationship that I can have with a butch woman. There is nothing expected or automatic about what we do. It's created every day, out of a great sense of gratitude that we can have the type of relationship we want, rather than the one that society or religion try to dictate.

To me, there isn't anything old fashioned about the expression of shared values. But, as has been mentioned, I also don't find anything redeeming in perpetuating views of women as weak, childish, or otherwise less than.

[OS Butch]

I can't speak for how others view Old School, but I will speak as to how I view my own behavior as Old School values pertain to me.

I bolded the part I have issues with your post. Because I open a door, I don't believe it perpetuates the view that women are weak. I do this for another Butches as well as my father or anyone that I respect and honor. I will graciously accept an open door from anyone whether they be Butch or Femme. I am sure there are those that would balk at this.....Maybe I am a progressive Butch.

The things I do as an Old Schooler are purely based on how I respect and honor those around me. I would hope that it is the same for others. All of my values and how I move in this world, I would hope, would never be interpreted for another being weak, silly or any less of a person.

Originally Posted by Lynn

I never felt that I could participate in a thread about OFOS. But, some of the posts have helped me pull the threads on a few of the things that resonate with me. I agree, OS Butch, that people should treat one another with chivalry, honor, and commitment.

In my ideal relationship (not dissimilar to the real one), there are all of these qualities. The thing is, for me, the giving goes in both directions. The door holding, the compliments and admiration, the romancing are all reciprocal. Nothing about this undermines the reality that she revels in her butchness and I am completely feminine. It is indeed the yin and yang. It's what I love and cherish in a relationship that I can have with a butch woman. There is nothing expected or automatic about what we do. It's created every day, out of a great sense of gratitude that we can have the type of relationship we want, rather than the one that society or religion try to dictate.

To me, there isn't anything old fashioned about the expression of shared values. But, as has been mentioned, I also don't find anything redeeming in perpetuating views of women as weak, childish, or otherwise less than.

[Lynn]

OS Butch, I wasn't in any way meaning to imply that you or anyone who opens doors, etc., thinks a femme is weak. In fact, I was agreeing with you.

I said,

"The door holding, the compliments and admiration, the romancing are all reciprocal. Nothing about this undermines the reality that she revels in her butchness and I am completely feminine. It is indeed the yin and yang."

Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I think we see eye to eye, if I understand you correctly.

[OS Butch]

I totally misunderstood what you were saying. I suppose it was my blinders were on too tight.

Over the years I have been ridiculed for being Old School. Old School is sometimes so misunderstood and in fact I don't believe it is Old Fashioned at all, it is the way it should be the way people treat people.

It always amazes when when I am on a subway or bus and there is an elderly, pregnant woman or a handicapped person standing, that people would let them stand rather than give up their seat. I can just feel the stares when I do give up my seat. But that probably is more because I am a Butch, not because of the courteous action.

Originally Posted by Lynn

OS Butch, I wasn't in any way meaning to imply that you or anyone who opens doors, etc., thinks a femme is weak. In fact, I was agreeing with you.

I said,

"The door holding, the compliments and admiration, the romancing are all reciprocal. Nothing about this undermines the reality that she revels in her butchness and I am completely feminine. It is indeed the yin and yang."

Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I think we see eye to eye, if I understand you correctly.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by OS Butch

It always amazes when when I am on a subway or bus and there is an elderly, pregnant woman or a handicapped person standing, that people would let them stand rather than give up their seat. I can just feel the stares when I do give up my seat. But that probably is more because I am a Butch, not because of the courteous action.

I agree--I do the same thing. The stares are probably because you were considerate enough to think of it, and they weren't.

[OS Butch]

Lynn, After misunderstanding, I reread your post. I red lettered a portion.

Why? What is it about Old School that would keep folks from participating?

I really don't think I am any different than any other Butch, though it has been pointed out to me that there is a lack of general manners.

With manners on my mind, I would like to know, what manners seem to be lacking in the Butches from the Femmes' point of view. What are the top 3 things a Femme wants to see when going out on a first date?

Originally Posted by Lynn

I never felt that I could participate in a thread about OFOS. But, some of the posts have helped me pull the threads on a few of the things that resonate with me. I agree, OS Butch, that people should treat one another with chivalry, honor, and commitment.

In my ideal relationship (not dissimilar to the real one), there are all of these qualities. The thing is, for me, the giving goes in both directions. The door holding, the compliments and admiration, the romancing are all reciprocal. Nothing about this undermines the reality that she revels in her butchness and I am completely feminine. It is indeed the yin and yang. It's what I love and cherish in a relationship that I can have with a butch woman. There is nothing expected or automatic about what we do. It's created every day, out of a great sense of gratitude that we can have the type of relationship we want, rather than the one that society or religion try to dictate.

To me, there isn't anything old fashioned about the expression of shared values. But, as has been mentioned, I also don't find anything redeeming in perpetuating views of women as weak, childish, or otherwise less than.