Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Joe Mario

Regarding the highlighted part of your post:
Have been reflecting much on my transition and gaining this 'male priviledge' after transitioning. In my case, the 'priviledge' has felt superficial at best. My ID for the previous 25 years before I transitioned 2 years ago was some flavor of Butch. First softbutch, then Butch, then TG Butch, which I claim today. In straight culture, I am 'treated as' a man, which is fine with me- like before. But I still need to 'edit' what I do and say-like before, but just in different ways.
I have feminist values and history but am dealing with straight males who want to bond (priviledge?), but who are not from my culture. I dont know their culture either and have no real interest in it. So, I wouldn't appreciate the red carpet leading to the mens club being rolled out for me by My Community. No, Thanks!

I am less visible or invisible in the queer community and (could) face misinterpretation and rejection for transitioning, which many Butches don't have to deal with.

I'd say this 'priveledge' is a trade-off. Perhaps the ones who complain about Butches Transitioning (not you, ALH; but generally speaking) need to examine why they are complaining to begin with. Begrudging us our 'ounce' of (so-called) priviledge and not looking at the drawbacks we face is unfair.


PS: (Culture and Social Influence matter in a duck's life... )

So you are in denial of your *male privilege*??

I wanna ask about those who complain about butches transitioning too, but I need to understand the first question first.

Thanks in advance

[Liam]

For the record:
I never once, thought that this thread was about conflict between male identified butches and ftms. I thought it was about defining and comparing the two terms.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Liam

For the record:
I never once, thought that this thread was about conflict between male identified butches and ftms. I thought it was about defining and comparing the two terms.

The title could have been 'and' instead of 'vs' and better accomplished that goal.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Toughy

The title could have been 'and' instead of 'vs' and better accomplished that goal.

Yes, it could have however the person who started the thread is a newbie, so that I think has to be taken into consideration. They probably don't have our vocabulary if they are asking these questions in the first place.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Yes, it could have however the person who started the thread is a newbie, so that I think has to be taken into consideration. They probably don't have our vocabulary if they are asking these questions in the first place.

Absolutely. The learning curve can be difficult. I only brought that point up as a learning kind of thing. It has been currently talked about in other threads. The timing seemed appropriate and I hope I did it in a way that reminds all of us of language and the willingness to learn.

I did not mean to imply this thread had de-volved into a negative space.

[EnderD_503]

The term "versus" has more than one usage, as its definition should suggest. While it is often used to denote conflict or opposition, that definition does not encompass its entire meaning. It is also a term frequently used to compare one thing to another, not for the sake of opposition, but for the sake of comparison. It is not, by definition, a word that implies conflict.

Sometimes I can't help but wonder if folks just enjoy being polemic for the sake of it. In the case of this thread, in my view it should have been blatantly obvious from the start that it was not meant to mean male id'd butch in conflict with FTM, but the characteristics of male id'd butch compared with FTM. I think that was made pretty obvious in the OP. Bringing the issue of the term's misuse in another thread into this one simply because the same term is used, does not mean the same issue of misuse occurred here. That's taking the term entirely out of its context. According to this thread's context, the term was applied correctly.

I think the title of this thread is perfectly fitting for what the OP was trying to find out.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

The term "versus" has more than one usage, as its definition should suggest. While it is often used to denote conflict or opposition, that definition does not encompass its entire meaning. It is also a term frequently used to compare one thing to another, not for the sake of opposition, but for the sake of comparison. It is not, by definition, a word that implies conflict.

Sometimes I can't help but wonder if folks just enjoy being polemic for the sake of it. In the case of this thread, in my view it should have been blatantly obvious from the start that it was not meant to mean male id'd butch in conflict with FTM, but the characteristics of male id'd butch compared with FTM. I think that was made pretty obvious in the OP. Bringing the issue of the term's misuse in another thread into this one simply because the same term is used, does not mean the same issue of misuse occurred here. That's taking the term entirely out of its context. According to this thread's context, the term was applied correctly.

I think the title of this thread is perfectly fitting for what the OP was trying to find out.

I agree in the usage in the context of this thread, not the other however.

[Soon]

I agree with Ender.

In this thread is clear that the OP is trying to seek out people's definitions regarding these two terms and not attempting to pit one identity against another.

[Joe Mario]

TLS: To repeat myself; "It feels superficial at best"

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So you are in denial of your *male privilege*??

I wanna ask about those who complain about butches transitioning too, but I need to understand the first question first.

Thanks in advance

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Joe Mario

TLS: To repeat myself; "It feels superficial at best"

You do realize men have privilege right?

[Dude]

Originally Posted by Joe Mario

PS: (Culture and Social Influence matter in a duck's life... )

actually in a duck's life , it's all about the plumage and presentation. I live with one. ( ">

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

You do realize men have privilege right?

Talking about male privilege in relation to transguys/male ids is a little more complicated. Especially considering all the shit transguys go through, even when living full-time having an employer, landlord or random guy in the washroom somehow find out your trans can mean losing your job or your home with no legal back up, or being threatened for who you are. On top of that the potential reactions just going about your daily business, losing family, friends and anyone you care about, again for simply being who you are.

There is a reason why attempted suicides among trans people is approximately 70%, why suicide rates themselves are so much higher than in any other portion of the population, why approximately half of the trans population lives below the poverty line, why trans people are 3 times more likely to be the victims of violent crime than other areas of the population. How many trans people have been raped, beaten and killed because someone found out they were trans? How many trans people have been denied medical care outright because they are trans? Not to mention potentially never feeling at peace with yourself because of the body you were born into. Personally, this body does not feel like a privilege to me. Everytime people bring up male privilege in conjunction with transguys/male ids it seriously feels like an undermining of everything each and every guy that has to live his life as a guy born in the wrong body (whether pre-HRT/post-HRT, pre-op/post-op) has to go through. I'm not sure if you realise how disrespectful that can feel coming from a community that should be more aware of each other's struggles.

[The_Lady_Snow]

You're right I know nothing my bad for partaking in the conversation my apologies.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Talking about male privilege in relation to transguys/male ids is a little more complicated. Especially considering all the shit transguys go through, even when living full-time having an employer, landlord or random guy in the washroom somehow find out your trans can mean losing your job or your home with no legal back up, or being threatened for who you are. On top of that the potential reactions just going about your daily business, losing family, friends and anyone you care about, again for simply being who you are.

There is a reason why attempted suicides among trans people is approximately 70%, why suicide rates themselves are so much higher than in any other portion of the population, why approximately half of the trans population lives below the poverty line, why trans people are 3 times more likely to be the victims of violent crime than other areas of the population. How many trans people have been raped, beaten and killed because someone found out they were trans? How many trans people have been denied medical care outright because they are trans? Not to mention potentially never feeling at peace with yourself because of the body you were born into. Personally, this body does not feel like a privilege to me. Everytime people bring up male privilege in conjunction with transguys/male ids it seriously feels like an undermining of everything each and every guy that has to live his life as a guy born in the wrong body (whether pre-HRT/post-HRT, pre-op/post-op) has to go through. I'm not sure if you realise how disrespectful that can feel coming from a community that should be more aware of each other's struggles.

Perhaps it could have been stated with more clarity, but I think this is exactly to what "superficial" speaks. Quite literally, scratch beneath the surface and this artificial, or assumed, privilege is gone.

It can't be denied that transmen can walk into situations and assume a sort of cloak of privilege. If they don't reveal their history, and are never "discovered," they can walk through the world with a form of privilege not possessed by women and those of us who don't always "pass" (I really hate that term, for the record). But should their history become known, there is often an undeniable shit-storm to face.

I'm not certain we can legitimately speak in terms of trade-offs, however. "Here, have a little male privilege in exchange for your trials." While transmen "enjoy" privilege in ways others don't, I agree it's not something for which our "community" should constantly berate them (assuming individuals with a certain degree of self-awareness and understanding of their privilege); each time it's brought up it feels a little "undermining" to me, too. Male privilege is a fact, one that stands alone outside all the other aspects of being trans that hardly feel like "privilege." When speaking of male privilege we are speaking of one very particular social construct, which becomes decidedly more complicated when applied to transmen/male IDs. Choosing to identify male is hardly a guarantee one will experience male privilege, and it is when this accusation is levied, that I most bristle.


ETA:

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

You're right I know nothing my bad for partaking in the conversation my apologies.

Snow, you made a statement and Ender was countering you, as happens in dialogue. Nowhere did I see any statements accusing you of "knowing nothing." These are sensitive topics with strong emotional weight for both "sides" and your comment here feels dismissive of that. I, for one, was looking forward to your response. Not this.

[Martina]

My point is not how the man feels about his privilege, but his effect on others. If he is not aware of privilege, he can do harm. A man frequently interrupting a woman can result in silencing her and other women. It is a sexist world, and men are more paid attention to. They hold more power. An individual man may not feel powerful, but by virtue of being recognized as a man, he can do more harm than he might attend. i expect all men to be aware of this whether they feel the benefits of privilege or not.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Martina

My point is not how the man feels about his privilege, but his effect on others. If he is not aware of privilege, he can do harm. A man frequently interrupting a woman can result in silencing her and other women. It is a sexist world, and men are more paid attention to. They hold more power. An individual man may not feel powerful, but by virtue of being recognized as a man, he can do more harm than he might attend. i expect all men to be aware of this whether they feel the benefits of privilege or not.

Again, the issue of transmen/male ids is not so simple, partially because of the issues I raised above and I think it is important to acknowledge this. Additionally, not all transmen are even able to transition or successfully pass as male in greater society, so it seems these claims of privilege are ignoring them as men entirely.

Since we are on the subject of silencing individuals, it should be realised how harmful it can be toward transmen to constantly throw male privilege at them in such a manner that it eventually guilts them or frustrates them into silence. It seems that their male privilege (should all of them possess it or not) is raised as a weapon against them in order to silence them whenever they don't agree with the perspective of another, and far more frequently than the privileges the rest of the LGB community possesses over the trans community (not only within our own community, but in greater society).

But an argument over who has more privilege than the other is often useless and can either cause the silencing of one side or the other, or ongoing animosity between both sides. Both happen more frequently than people are willing to admit. I don't think either case is very productive when it comes to gaining rights within society at large, and, in fact, is rather counterproductive.

[Martina]

Well if someone is not passing, yes, that is different. If they are, then they assume a position in society that gives them some power. i expect them to use it wisely.

i do not want to neglect anyone's concerns, but i am not going to be distracted from the fact that male privilege wielded without regard can harm women.

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by Martina

Well if someone is not passing, yes, that is different. If they are, then they assume a position in society that gives them some power. i expect them to use it wisely.

i do not want to neglect anyone's concerns, but i am not going to be distracted from the fact that male privilege wielded without regard can harm women.

I agree 100%, I feel that because I have male privilege, I have a very serious responsibility to use my voice, and my actions to fight mysogyny and other crimes against women and children. And to take it a step further, because I have hetero male privilege in society, I have a responsibility to use my voice to fight homophobia, transphobia, etc. So any time I am in a group of male peers, and I hear hate speech, or mysogynistic statements, etc, I HAVE to speak up and let them know it's not acceptable. I think a lot of guys feel like this is somehow outing themselves, but it doesn't have to at all. I am stealth here in our community, but I speak out all the time about women's rights, GLBT issues, etc.

I also agree about guys who aren't passing as well as they want to, and don't feel comfortable speaking out. That's different. But for those who do blend right in, denying that male privilege comes with the territory is just beyond my comprehension.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Martina

Well if someone is not passing, yes, that is different. If they are, then they assume a position in society that gives them some power. i expect them to use it wisely.

i do not want to neglect anyone's concerns, but i am not going to be distracted from the fact that male privilege wielded without regard can harm women.

And non-tg privilege wielded without regard can harm trans people. So what is the point of this debate, and why was the subject even brought up? I don't see anyone in this thread denying that male privilege exists or that it is harmful to women. However, I do have a problem with how some in this thread are applying that privilege to transmen. A cisgender, heterosexual (biological) male does not risk losing everything because of the way he was born. This "position" and "power" in society is nowhere near being applicable to all transmen given the prevalence of poverty and abuse against trans people as a whole. On top of that, this "position" and "power" is trivial when there is little legal protection to back it up, which demonstrates the true position of many transmen and transwomen in society. So yes, that privilege may exist to a degree for transguys, but it comes with a dangerous price, and I'm not sure that privilege is any greater than that which non-trans people possess.

I also question why this was even brought up to begin with in this thread, and I have a suspicion it was for the precise same reason as I mentioned previously; as a way of shaming, guilting or frustrating transguys. Why is it that in so many trans/male id threads someone or other sees fit to shove this in our faces as though we're expected to turn to self-flagellation, atoning for a great sin? It's tiresome.

I think many transguys spend enough time going through bouts of self-hatred, guilt or shame because of who they are as it is without adding more fuel to the fire.

Again, this post is not denying male privilege or its effects, it is asking people to understand that the circumstances of many transmen is unique from that of a cisgender heterosexual (biological) male and that that privilege cannot be applied in the same equal fashion to both.

[Melissa]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

And non-tg privilege wielded without regard can harm trans people. So what is the point of this debate, and why was the subject even brought up? I don't see anyone in this thread denying that male privilege exists or that it is harmful to women. However, I do have a problem with how some in this thread are applying that privilege to transmen. A cisgender, heterosexual (biological) male does not risk losing everything because of the way he was born. This "position" and "power" in society is nowhere near being applicable to all transmen given the prevalence of poverty and abuse against trans people as a whole. On top of that, this "position" and "power" is trivial when there is little legal protection to back it up, which demonstrates the true position of many transmen and transwomen in society. So yes, that privilege may exist to a degree for transguys, but it comes with a dangerous price, and I'm not sure that privilege is any greater than that which non-trans people possess.

I also question why this was even brought up to begin with in this thread, and I have a suspicion it was for the precise same reason as I mentioned previously; as a way of shaming, guilting or frustrating transguys. Why is it that in so many trans/male id threads someone or other sees fit to shove this in our faces as though we're expected to turn to self-flagellation, atoning for a great sin? It's tiresome.

I think many transguys spend enough time going through bouts of self-hatred, guilt or shame because of who they are as it is without adding more fuel to the fire.

Again, this post is not denying male privilege or its effects, it is asking people to understand that the circumstances of many transmen is unique from that of a cisgender heterosexual (biological) male and that that privilege cannot be applied in the same equal fashion to both.

I also think that privilege is highly dependent on context and in relation to things like age, race, size, education, and looks. A white male has more privilege than a black male in certain contexts. A short, overweight, unattractive and uneducated white male will have less access to certain privileges than a young, tall, attractive highly educated white woman. In this case privilege is not based on sex but on education and looks. And we do privilege certain types of people based on how they look.

So I would rather discuss privileges than privilege and recognize that privilege(s) vary and depend on many issues not just male vs female, masculine vs feminine.

I think that making a blanket statement that all males (whether bio male or trans male) by default of being male have automatic privilege is shortsighted and fails to take into account context along with issues of race, age, ability, education level among other things. This issue is very nuanced and we do it a disservice by looking at it from a single or simplified perspective.

Thank you Ender for your insightful comments.

Melissa