Male ID butch vs. FTM??

Jesse · 02-25-2011, 07:23 PM

I agree Linus, and there are always going to be some that believe they do not have privilege, just as there are always going to be some whites who think they do not have privilege because they are white.

I also think it is important to not forget that many of us have been verbally bashed for transitioning and accused of doing it just to get this privilege. I am one of these people, so yes, it can be a trigger if one has not done some work around it and realized what privilege we do get and without our choosing it specifically.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linus

I don't know if it's spinning out of control as much as going on tangents as part of people's thoughts when they read something posted and it a triggers a random thought.

If we kept threads in the very narrow definition of the topic, I think that we wouldn't see too much growth or discussion in relation to the topic or side-topics. I think when we dismiss these discussions we dismiss our own opportunity to learn and grow. To be honest, I get Martina's point. To be honest that whole thread feels like a lot people are saying stuff and everyone is going "Lalalalalalala" when replying.

Privilege is something that some transmen claim they never have and that is just as wrong as saying that we get the exact same privilege as biomen. I think, however, it's important that transmen recognize that privilege. And then figure out how they are going to address it in their day-to-day lives. Because unless they go out and tell every person that they meet that they are trans, they will be inferred that privilege (and moreso if they are white, tall, handsome, etc.). Unlike transwomen, we blend far too well.

And I think that's what Martina's trying to point out (Martina, if I'm wrong please let me know).

That said, I will say that I believe that the privilege in question is transitory (although that may depend on circumstance or cultural area). For example, my recent activities with my chiropractor where I had to out myself for health reasons and ensure he had no issue with me (I also had to ask about the possible health impact of wearing a medium-compression binder). No Bioman has to worry about that. He just goes in, gets treated and leaves.

Now, if we are to get back to the original topic of the thread (what is the difference between a male-ID'd butch and an FTM), I think that it comes down to whether there is a sense of gender dysphoria or if there is a sense of belonging to one's body regardless of gender labels. But that's my view of it.

Corkey · 02-25-2011, 07:48 PM

As far as Male ID'd getting some sort of privilege, I just don't experience that in my every day life. Sometimes I pass, but that is generally when someone isn't paying attention, but more often than not I don't. There isn't much privilege when one still has to use a restroom they aren't comfortable using, because if one used the mens their personage is in peril. There isn't much privilege when one gets ladled when in the company of others who are feminine, and there certainly isn't any privilege when it comes to not being seen as the male we are whilst having the bodies we do.

When I do pass I realize it and accept the responsibility that has been bestowed upon me, by being honest to the person I am with, who is Femme that I recognize it and will correct any affront done to her. This happens so infrequently that I still contend that *I* me myself do not suffer the privilege of man.

Do others get male privilege, yes, and some no. It isn't so pat that it can be applied to Male ID'd individuals or many Transmen. Men get it, men give it, but it is not so prevalent in my life as to apply to me.

Thinker · 02-25-2011, 07:54 PM

I've never denied the automatic "privilege" that a man receives once he goes out into the world, and I'm not going to do that now.

And I'm also not going to turn a deaf ear to those (trans)men who, as a result of transitioning, have lost their jobs, health benefits, families, loved ones, and/or homes. Those guys don't feel like they got much in the privilege department as a result of transitioning, and I can get where they're coming from.

That doesn't mean they get to act like asses and work to keep women down or any such nonsense, and I feel quite certain we are ALL on the same page there. But I do think we should ALL hear that those things are as much a reality and a result of the transition as the privilege is.

There are folks right here in this community who will say, "Tough shit. You wanted to transition; take the bad with the good." And you all know good and well that is a fact. Some people in b/f land have all but SAID those EXACT same words.

My gawd... Not one person here has said, "Transmen do NOT receive male privilege." People are trying to say it isn't necessarily automatic and isn't always easy and doesn't always feel like it............and that it is more complex than that!! Why can't it be grey? Why does it have to be so fucking black or white?

It doesn't feel good to have your struggle reduced to something that takes three seconds to say. If someone here goes through this world as a man and never encounters anyone who knows of his trans history and you hear him say he does not receive male privilege, I would really love to be a part of that conversation. Seriously. Because, yeah, there's something amiss there.

But until then, I think we should ALL honor each individual's struggle and hear them and question with compassion and respect. And I feel that way about everyone.....regardless of their identity, socio-economic status, race, position, etc... A little kindness goes a long way.

Thinker · 02-25-2011, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Furthermore, what is the point of discussing one individual's privilege within a situation, if the awareness of each person's privilege is equally important when it comes down to burning the gender rulebook? The only purpose I can see is to guilt, alienate and shame one of the two parties; to place the importance of one over the other, and that is what I feel has happened at certain points of this thread when male privilege and transmen have been brought up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martina

i was responding to Ender's post, to this in part. It seems to say there is no point in talking about male privilege as it applies to transmen. i don't agree.

I wanted to acknowledge this since it seems it was in response to a question I asked you; I appreciate the reply.

Personally, I don't see how you got "there is no point in talking about male privilege as it applies to transmen" from what he wrote. I admit to not always getting things the first time around, but I just think there is so much more to what he said.

Respectfully,
Thinker

DomnNC · 02-25-2011, 08:31 PM

Awesome post Thinker. I totally get what you're saying, I read somewhere the other night and dang I wish I could put my finger on it right now, but it said that over 50% of the transmen in the US live far under the poverty level cuz as you said they lost their jobs, homes, family, etcetcetc when they transition. So now they are also left without healthcare as well if the state won't cover them. It was also said that the transmen group are one of the highest discriminated against groups in the US right now. Now that's privilege.

I can pass quite easily when I choose to do so. I had a very stressful high up job in a big manufacturing facility with 6 remote branches. I was the MIS Director for the whole shabang. I had to cost justify every little penny I wanted to spend. I was questioned endlessly as to why I wanted to spend the money. They even called other companies to come in and verify what I said. When I had my last back surgery they replaced me within a week with a "real" man with a cock dangling between his legs that said he had been with IBM for 20+ years and oh my he could do it all. He wound up costing that company well over $200,000 for shit they didn't need or to replace stuff he tore up and was hiding it, didn't have to justify one thing to them, he could just do it. Short ending, before my medical leave was up they called wanting me to come back full time, that I could run the department as I saw fit, you know, male privilege, I told em to go screw themselves in not so nice terms. So see, we don't get privilege like some people think we do, it's not all encompassing male privilege. At least my experience has been quite the opposite. I'm not denying it's out there somewhere, it's just not been my experience all that much.

lol, it took em 3 years to figure out the man lied about every ability he had and to fire him.

02-25-2011, 07:48 PM	#2
Corkey Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Human Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Very Married Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Where I want to be Posts: 8,155 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 47,491 Thanked 29,268 Times in 6,637 Posts Rep Power: 21474860	As far as Male ID'd getting some sort of privilege, I just don't experience that in my every day life. Sometimes I pass, but that is generally when someone isn't paying attention, but more often than not I don't. There isn't much privilege when one still has to use a restroom they aren't comfortable using, because if one used the mens their personage is in peril. There isn't much privilege when one gets ladled when in the company of others who are feminine, and there certainly isn't any privilege when it comes to not being seen as the male we are whilst having the bodies we do. When I do pass I realize it and accept the responsibility that has been bestowed upon me, by being honest to the person I am with, who is Femme that I recognize it and will correct any affront done to her. This happens so infrequently that I still contend that I me myself do not suffer the privilege of man. Do others get male privilege, yes, and some no. It isn't so pat that it can be applied to Male ID'd individuals or many Transmen. Men get it, men give it, but it is not so prevalent in my life as to apply to me. __________________ "Many proposals have been made to us to adopt your laws, your religion, your manners and your customs. We would be better pleased with beholding the good effects of these doctrines in your own practices, than with hearing you talk about them". ~Old Tassel, Chief of the Tsalagi (Cherokee)

02-25-2011, 07:54 PM	#3
Thinker Senior Member How Do You Identify?: transman Preferred Pronoun?: male Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,868 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 710 Thanked 4,133 Times in 1,079 Posts Rep Power: 21474854	I've never denied the automatic "privilege" that a man receives once he goes out into the world, and I'm not going to do that now. And I'm also not going to turn a deaf ear to those (trans)men who, as a result of transitioning, have lost their jobs, health benefits, families, loved ones, and/or homes. Those guys don't feel like they got much in the privilege department as a result of transitioning, and I can get where they're coming from. That doesn't mean they get to act like asses and work to keep women down or any such nonsense, and I feel quite certain we are ALL on the same page there. But I do think we should ALL hear that those things are as much a reality and a result of the transition as the privilege is. There are folks right here in this community who will say, "Tough shit. You wanted to transition; take the bad with the good." And you all know good and well that is a fact. Some people in b/f land have all but SAID those EXACT same words. My gawd... Not one person here has said, "Transmen do NOT receive male privilege." People are trying to say it isn't necessarily automatic and isn't always easy and doesn't always feel like it............and that it is more complex than that!! Why can't it be grey? Why does it have to be so fucking black or white? It doesn't feel good to have your struggle reduced to something that takes three seconds to say. If someone here goes through this world as a man and never encounters anyone who knows of his trans history and you hear him say he does not receive male privilege, I would really love to be a part of that conversation. Seriously. Because, yeah, there's something amiss there. But until then, I think we should ALL honor each individual's struggle and hear them and question with compassion and respect. And I feel that way about everyone.....regardless of their identity, socio-economic status, race, position, etc... A little kindness goes a long way. __________________ Practice humility and kindness.

02-25-2011, 08:31 PM	#5
DomnNC Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Male Preferred Pronoun?: He/Him Relationship Status: Widow Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Permanently Banned 11/15/2011 Posts: 1,223 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,618 Thanked 2,582 Times in 837 Posts Rep Power: 0	Awesome post Thinker. I totally get what you're saying, I read somewhere the other night and dang I wish I could put my finger on it right now, but it said that over 50% of the transmen in the US live far under the poverty level cuz as you said they lost their jobs, homes, family, etcetcetc when they transition. So now they are also left without healthcare as well if the state won't cover them. It was also said that the transmen group are one of the highest discriminated against groups in the US right now. Now that's privilege. I can pass quite easily when I choose to do so. I had a very stressful high up job in a big manufacturing facility with 6 remote branches. I was the MIS Director for the whole shabang. I had to cost justify every little penny I wanted to spend. I was questioned endlessly as to why I wanted to spend the money. They even called other companies to come in and verify what I said. When I had my last back surgery they replaced me within a week with a "real" man with a cock dangling between his legs that said he had been with IBM for 20+ years and oh my he could do it all. He wound up costing that company well over $200,000 for shit they didn't need or to replace stuff he tore up and was hiding it, didn't have to justify one thing to them, he could just do it. Short ending, before my medical leave was up they called wanting me to come back full time, that I could run the department as I saw fit, you know, male privilege, I told em to go screw themselves in not so nice terms. So see, we don't get privilege like some people think we do, it's not all encompassing male privilege. At least my experience has been quite the opposite. I'm not denying it's out there somewhere, it's just not been my experience all that much. lol, it took em 3 years to figure out the man lied about every ability he had and to fire him.