Ask a trans person!

[Bit]

I have a question. Lately when Nick and Gryph and I have been out in public, it has seemed to me that people have been going out of their way to call us "ladies."

Now if you've known me for a while, you already know that it makes me uncomfortable to be called "lady" because, after all, that's my dog's name... well, okay, really it's because of the stereotypical crap I was force-fed growing up about a lady is always quiet and demure and never laughs out loud (I cannot stop laughing when something is funny), a lady never shows the least hint of temper (I cuss like a sailor! sheesh), a lady never sweats (omgawd, in PHOENIX? seriously?! Are you insane?!)---but when I am out with a transman who is wearing a dress shirt and tie, someone who does not even LOOK female, and people go out of their way to call us ladies.... well it just makes me cringe!

I suppose one of the big cringe factors is their attitude; they are quite obviously going out of their way to be extra nice and to reassure us all that "they can tell [the transman] is actually really female, no worries, we accept you as a girl, we aren't going to embarrass you by not noticing your femaleness" omg it just makes me CRINGE....

So anyhow, here's my question. Does this happen to you in your area, or is it just the Midwest US; and if it does happen where you are, does it happen to you more when you are with a Femme than if you are alone?

I would ask Nick directly, but yanno he and Gryph are off shooting paper people dead and I don't want to forget the question---so hey, Nick, would you mind answering too? Do you get this treatment more when I'm with you?

Thanks in advance for your answers, everyone. I appreciate your time.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Bit

So anyhow, here's my question. Does this happen to you in your area, or is it just the Midwest US; and if it does happen where you are, does it happen to you more when you are with a Femme than if you are alone?

Hrmm.. I don't think I've ever noticed but then again, I have the advantage of a beard and facial hair seems to cement things for most people's view of gender (voice drop didn't hurt either).

When I was out in Kansas City last year, I got read both ways (I was there for work so by myself).

Did the person in question know both of you before Nick began transition?

[Bit]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

That being said, I worry about how I will be perceived after transition. Will I be shunned but the queer community as no longer being part of the tribe? Will femmes no longer be interested? Will my queerness be invisible? I don't consider myself straight- no because I am attracted to masculine people. I am not. But because I am attracted to femmes. Femmes aren't straight women. I have little interest in straight women. Does that make me a jerk? I hope not. But will I trade being seen as a female for no longer being seen as queer when I go on T?? What is your experiences guys? Do any of you feel the same?

I can answer some of your questions, Drew, if you don't mind a Femme perspective.

I have seen Transmen be shunned by the Queer community after transition, and I have seen them be welcomed, both--so I think the answer to that one depends on your own community.

I know at least two Transmen who have said they do feel invisible to the queer community now that they are living as men--but other than what those two have said, I cannot answer that particular question.

Not being attracted to straight women does NOT make you a jerk AT ALL--it makes you one very fine special guy, MUCH appreciated by the Transensual and Queer Femmes among us... and yes, not only will you still be attractive to us, you will be MORE attractive to us because you will be settled in your own identity and you will be happy.

I think people in general highly underestimate the attractiveness of a person who is settled in his own skin, who knows who he is and who is damned happy to be himself.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by Bit

I have a question. Lately when Nick and Gryph and I have been out in public, it has seemed to me that people have been going out of their way to call us "ladies."


I suppose one of the big cringe factors is their attitude; they are quite obviously going out of their way to be extra nice and to reassure us all that "they can tell [the transman] is actually really female, no worries, we accept you as a girl, we aren't going to embarrass you by not noticing your femaleness" omg it just makes me CRINGE....

So anyhow, here's my question. Does this happen to you in your area, or is it just the Midwest US; and if it does happen where you are, does it happen to you more when you are with a Femme than if you are alone?
Thanks in advance for your answers, everyone. I appreciate your time.

Evening Bit. I am going to give your questions a shot. This has happened to me where I live in the San Francisco Bay Area. And, as a matter of fact it did seem to happen more often when I was in the company of femmes and other ladies. I have been taking T for the past 18 months and the ma'am thing rarely happens now. I am not a hairy guy so not much facial hair to speak of on me.

There have been a few times in my past that I have just directly dealt with the ma'am and lady thing. First I tell them, Look no need to apologize. I know you are trying to be polite. I know how I look, present. Then I ask, "Seriously, do I look like a lady?" Usually they are not sure what to say and looking at me with a look of dumb foundedness. Then I again try to reasure them with something like "I know you have probably never been face to face with a person like me. I am Trans. This means for me, I purposely present as masculine. So please try this; If you cannot wrap your head around using a masculine pronoun on me, use prounouns that are genderless or use my name, Grey."

By this point they really are trying to make sense of what I have just said. Usually people are so unprepared to hear in a very matter of fact style such openess. They just say okay and the conversation ends or we move on.

I am very serious, I have done this a few times and so far, so good.

[Paphigleo]

Originally Posted by Bit

I have a question. Lately when Nick and Gryph and I have been out in public, it has seemed to me that people have been going out of their way to call us "ladies."

Now if you've known me for a while, you already know that it makes me uncomfortable to be called "lady" because, after all, that's my dog's name... well, okay, really it's because of the stereotypical crap I was force-fed growing up about a lady is always quiet and demure and never laughs out loud (I cannot stop laughing when something is funny), a lady never shows the least hint of temper (I cuss like a sailor! sheesh), a lady never sweats (omgawd, in PHOENIX? seriously?! Are you insane?!)---but when I am out with a transman who is wearing a dress shirt and tie, someone who does not even LOOK female, and people go out of their way to call us ladies.... well it just makes me cringe!

I suppose one of the big cringe factors is their attitude; they are quite obviously going out of their way to be extra nice and to reassure us all that "they can tell [the transman] is actually really female, no worries, we accept you as a girl, we aren't going to embarrass you by not noticing your femaleness" omg it just makes me CRINGE....

So anyhow, here's my question. Does this happen to you in your area, or is it just the Midwest US; and if it does happen where you are, does it happen to you more when you are with a Femme than if you are alone?

I would ask Nick directly, but yanno he and Gryph are off shooting paper people dead and I don't want to forget the question---so hey, Nick, would you mind answering too? Do you get this treatment more when I'm with you?

Thanks in advance for your answers, everyone. I appreciate your time.

cath...

as I answered you while there (but am posting for posterity)

It does happen more when I am around females, whether Femmes or even my lil sister. I do not feel as though they are trying to be disrespectful it is quite the contrary. Perhaps it has something to do with them wanting to recognize what they perceive as queer and want *me* to know that they *see* me for my *queer* self and are totally ok with it, *ladies* (wink and smile). While this motis operandi causes me no end of internal turmoil, I do not see any disrespect or venom in it. It does not happen as often when I am alone, but I believe I carry myself differently when alone, there is much more 'matter of fact' and 'stay back' than when I am with friends.

The vocal issue is also ever present as is the lack of facial hair. My baby face never helps matters. :S

I am convinced that with reconstruction I will have a much better pass rate and I utterly refuse to blame the issue on such a sweet girl as you.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Paphigleo

I am convinced that with reconstruction I will have a much better pass rate and I utterly refuse to blame the issue on such a sweet girl as you.

Bless your heart, love! You are ever the gentleman.

I believe T will probably masculinize your face and voice enough so that people will see you as a man with or without surgery--yes, I know, surgery is vitally important! But I think it's the T which will make the most changes.

For me, there seems to be a link between Femme Invisibility and Transman Invisibility... but that might be that I am too close to the situation to see it clearly, I don't know.

What I do know is how startling it is when people go out of their way to be accepting of a Transman as a Queer Butch... cuz yanno, it just has NOT been that long ago that people were practically spitting on the ground whenever Queer Butches walked by. If ever there were a flag flying to point out the shift in the cultural wind of this society, I think this one might be it!

I still cringe inside, though. *sheepish smile*

[Jet]

Like I said, I've never had voice issues i.e. calling Adobe for tech support yesterday and today and both times they called me "sir" or "Parker, sir" the whole time.....of course I just grinned.

[Paphigleo]

Originally Posted by Ol' Jet

Like I said, I've never had voice issues i.e. calling Adobe for tech support yesterday and today and both times they called me "sir" or "Parker, sir" the whole time.....of course I just grinned.

If I make a trully concerted effort to keep my voice low, breathing even and stay tranquil calm... *then* I sound sorta close. I know I am my own worst critic on my voice.. but I do believe cath is right in my specific case.

On a seperate note, I think I am gonna have to seek a doc in Wichita. I had tried to contact a local doc via e-mail that I know, like, and respect... after a month and no reply I am gonna strike out in a larger talent pool.

[Paphigleo]

Originally Posted by Bit

Bless your heart, love! You are ever the gentleman.

*snip*

What I do know is how startling it is when people go out of their way to be accepting of a Transman as a Queer Butch... cuz yanno, it just has NOT been that long ago that people were practically spitting on the ground whenever Queer Butches walked by. If ever there were a flag flying to point out the shift in the cultural wind of this society, I think this one might be it!

I still cringe inside, though. *sheepish smile*

*nods*

I agree, it was not that long ago that it was common place to endure some asshats diatribe on gender expression on a daily basis.

*winds of change* they are ever blowing, gale-force winds these days.

I cringe inside too hon, I am amazed it doesn't show on the outside.

I am thankfull for one specific aspect of the changing climate re: butches.. I do not feel comfortable yet in using mensrooms.. less and less I have encountered the 'looks' or hasty 'clutching of children' by fellow restroom goers as I used to..

so either people are getting used to it, OR I'm avoiding public restrooms more than I used to (both are distinct possibilities)

[Jet]

Originally Posted by Bit

I believe T will probably masculinize your face and voice enough so that people will see you as a man with or without surgery-[sic] ....it just has NOT been that long ago that people were practically spitting on the ground whenever Queer Butches walked by. If ever there were a flag flying to point out the shift in the cultural wind of this society, I think this one might be it!

Not that long ago it was taboo to be a butch because they were always stereotyped as diesel dykes connotating something low class, at least where I lived. That's how it was when I left the community, and lived in seclusion for over 10 years, 17 years ago. I was amazed when I "came back" and saw the prevalence of gender reassignments and gender queer ID's out in the open. It was culture shock to say the least. It blew my mind because it was always how I felt and I had kept it to myself and with whomever I was partnered.

Fast forward to today...I'm going to find support groups in Atlanta which i think would be helpful and I already have my doc. I don't require top surgery or binding or anything, just the hormone therapy. Working on therapist now and insurance issues etc.

[greeneyedgrrl]

Originally Posted by Bit

I have a question. Lately when Nick and Gryph and I have been out in public, it has seemed to me that people have been going out of their way to call us "ladies."

Now if you've known me for a while, you already know that it makes me uncomfortable to be called "lady" because, after all, that's my dog's name... well, okay, really it's because of the stereotypical crap I was force-fed growing up about a lady is always quiet and demure and never laughs out loud (I cannot stop laughing when something is funny), a lady never shows the least hint of temper (I cuss like a sailor! sheesh), a lady never sweats (omgawd, in PHOENIX? seriously?! Are you insane?!)---but when I am out with a transman who is wearing a dress shirt and tie, someone who does not even LOOK female, and people go out of their way to call us ladies.... well it just makes me cringe!

I suppose one of the big cringe factors is their attitude; they are quite obviously going out of their way to be extra nice and to reassure us all that "they can tell [the transman] is actually really female, no worries, we accept you as a girl, we aren't going to embarrass you by not noticing your femaleness" omg it just makes me CRINGE....

So anyhow, here's my question. Does this happen to you in your area, or is it just the Midwest US; and if it does happen where you are, does it happen to you more when you are with a Femme than if you are alone?

I would ask Nick directly, but yanno he and Gryph are off shooting paper people dead and I don't want to forget the question---so hey, Nick, would you mind answering too? Do you get this treatment more when I'm with you?

Thanks in advance for your answers, everyone. I appreciate your time.

this is interesting to me... i have had the exact opposite experience. often when i am out in public here with very masculine butch women/females, (who btw prefer feminine pronouns), people go out of their way to call them sir. one of the women has very large breasts (i dunno how anyone could miss them)! in these cases do you think it's intentional use of the wrong pronoun? or do you think that they're trying to be sensitive and just aren't able to see the difference? blind? ig'nant? thoughts?

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by greeneyedgrrl

this is interesting to me... i have had the exact opposite experience. often when i am out in public here with very masculine butch women/females, (who btw prefer feminine pronouns), people go out of their way to call them sir. one of the women has very large breasts (i dunno how anyone could miss them)! in these cases do you think it's intentional use of the wrong pronoun? or do you think that they're trying to be sensitive and just aren't able to see the difference? blind? ig'nant? thoughts?

I believe there is an honest-to-goodness mix of people who do those things.

I believe there are some who feel your ID must be that of the masculine....maybe even male.....and they are wanting to "have your back" and let you know they see you and they get it.

I believe there are some who are being a-holes and trying to cut at you.

And I believe there are some who are real "surface-y" with that stuff. His/her mind registered "male" so they went with "sir" and now they're on to the next thing.

There's no way of knowing for sure what one individual means by it at any given time, IMO.

[Linus]

Welp. Went for my 2 week visit. The nipple grafts seemed to have worked and being hairy did not help. Dr. V removed my tape from across my scars and pulled all the hair as well That said, he said I should be able to toss the ace bandage in a week (at most but possibly before then). I'll have the "skin coloured" tape on my scars for 3-4 months but could be "shirtless by next week!

He also said I could start running in about 3 weeks (I assume weight lifting would be a couple of weeks after that). Either way...

W00T!!!!

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by greeneyedgrrl

this is interesting to me... i have had the exact opposite experience. often when i am out in public here with very masculine butch women/females, (who btw prefer feminine pronouns), people go out of their way to call them sir. one of the women has very large breasts (i dunno how anyone could miss them)! in these cases do you think it's intentional use of the wrong pronoun? or do you think that they're trying to be sensitive and just aren't able to see the difference? blind? ig'nant? thoughts?

That's not our experience here in central Texas. We are often called 'ladies' or 'girls' and it really grates my nerves.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Gemme

That's not our experience here in central Texas. We are often called 'ladies' or 'girls' and it really grates my nerves.

Before my husband transitioned, we had the same experience as Gemme in Central Florida and SW Ontario. Mostly the term *ladies*...not a fan of that word in general but especially hated it when we were out together for obvious reasons.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Gemme

That's not our experience here in central Texas. We are often called 'ladies' or 'girls' and it really grates my nerves.

And it seems most of the time that people in areas like yours are doing it as a "favor"........to say, "Hey, I see you and I'm hip to all this." Would you agree? Or do you think they're being shitty for the most part?

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Thinker

And it seems most of the time that people in areas like yours are doing it as a "favor"........to say, "Hey, I see you and I'm hip to all this." Would you agree? Or do you think they're being shitty for the most part?

I do agree and I do appreciate someone making an attempt to be a part of the solution rather than a part of the problem but it feels like it's like 'see how open minded and awesome I am?' instead of considering the dress, style and mannerisms of the person before you. I know it's hard to decipher gender presentation and that the wrapping, in many cases, does not determine what's in the box but how hard would it be to just cut that one word off? They could still acknowledge us by just saying 'how may I help you?" or 'do you have any further questions?' and leave it at that.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by Thinker

And it seems most of the time that people in areas like yours are doing it as a "favor"........to say, "Hey, I see you and I'm hip to all this." Would you agree? Or do you think they're being shitty for the most part?

Here in California and especially in the Bay Area, people do make an effort to say ladies and ma'am and such, and I do think it's because they are trying to acknowledge me in a positive way. However, it is annoying. I can see how it is hard for not only straight people, but I have seen this with some queer folks too, to get the pronouns right. I look like a butch, not a man at this point. There are many butches who don't want to be called sir. So I can see how it can be confusing for some female-bodied masculine folks to say, "hey I'm not a sir", and people like me saying, "um, it's sir not lady". I try to be aware that a lot of people have the best of intentions when getting it wrong about my gender identity.

[greeneyedgrrl]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

Here in California and especially in the Bay Area, people do make an effort to say ladies and ma'am and such, and I do think it's because they are trying to acknowledge me in a positive way. However, it is annoying. I can see how it is hard for not only straight people, but I have seen this with some queer folks too, to get the pronouns right. I look like a butch, not a man at this point. There are many butches who don't want to be called sir. So I can see how it can be confusing for some female-bodied masculine folks to say, "hey I'm not a sir", and people like me saying, "um, it's sir not lady". I try to be aware that a lot of people have the best of intentions when getting it wrong about my gender identity.

hmmm... i'm in south bay... and we have a lot of butches here, or we used to anyway (our genderqueer and trans pops seem to be growing/becoming more visible and b/f pops shrinking/becoming less visible). the butches i referred to earlier, aren't binding and they get "sir" when we go out. it's like the gen pop see the short hair and masculine dress and look no further. i like the idea of just leaving the pronouns out entirely. especially since sometimes it is hard to tell and isn't always appropriate to ask.