Japanese reactor crisis

[AtLast]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/51456.html

Nuclear Regulatory Commission sounds alarm on Japan nuclear crisis

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories...#ixzz1GowqOT3G

I don't know what to make of the descrepancies announced today by the NRC. I am feeling that it has got to be damn difficult with all of what is going on in Japan to get all info out. Don't know if this is helpful, either in the middle of this.

Apparently, our military over there are going to do testing to see if what we are hearing from Japan is reliable.

Any thoughts- or other info anyone has come across?

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Martina

So they did drop water from a heliocopter. If they can keep them cool till they get that power line up, it sounds like they can avert a total meltdown. At least we can see a scenario that might work now. i find that comforting.

Me too. At this point that would be the best case scenario from where we are right now.

Wild to see the U.S. government basically call the Japanese govt/TEPCO on their lies. But it's public safety, and Japanese officials and corporate folks are notorious for lying to the public.

True on both counts. At this point, I think the Japanese government should expand the exclusion zone.

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/51456.html

Nuclear Regulatory Commission sounds alarm on Japan nuclear crisis

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories...#ixzz1GowqOT3G

I don't know what to make of the descrepancies announced today by the NRC. I am feeling that it has got to be damn difficult with all of what is going on in Japan to get all info out. Don't know if this is helpful, either in the middle of this.

Apparently, our military over there are going to do testing to see if what we are hearing from Japan is reliable.

Any thoughts- or other info anyone has come across?

Yes, I've heard this and at present, I just don't know what to think. I'm prone to believe the NRC and the IAEA over the Japanese government for one simple reason; neither the NRC or the IAEA gain anything from making things look worse than they already are and *no one* wants a panic. The Japanese government and TEPCO (Tokyo Electric Power Co.) have *every* reason to lie. They shouldn't lie but they certainly have a motivation to do so. The NRC is an objective observer in this, even more than the IAEA perhaps.

Tomorrow there will be overflights to assess the radioactivity over and surrounding the site. We'll have a better picture after that happens.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

This is the latest information coming out of IAEA. I will continue to post these briefings as the events unfold until such time as the crisis passes.

Japan Earthquake Update (17 March 2011 11:05 UTC)

Based on a press release from the Japanese Chief Cabinet Secretary dated 17 March 2011 04:00 UTC, the IAEA can confirm that the Japanese military carried out four helicopter water droppings over the building of reactor unit 3 of the Fukushima Daichi nuclear power plant.

According to the press release, the droppings took place between 00:48 UTC and 01:00 UTC.



Cheers
Aj

[Camo Eagle]

Originally Posted by suebee

I'm assuming it's not going to just skip British Columbia.

Thanks for this info.

I would figure that all areas in and around the ones I named would be affected.
Sorry I didnt mention all the other countries, as I know many are in the path.
Since my info came from a US Military mtg., we were only discussing the plan for US cities.
Since I was quoting a source, I stuck with repeating the facts, and not adding my opinion.

Originally Posted by suebee

Seems to be a bit of a contradiction to what Camo Eagle's source said, wouldn't you think? However, the article you posted had as it's source a statement given on Sunday. Things have changed considerably since then.

When I posted my info I clearly stated it would "change daily" as the events unfolded. My info was also clearly stated as "in event of a med/lg radiation release". That hasnt happened yet. It wasnt ref to the the current amts in the air.
Even if I was ref to those amts, I wouldnt find my info any more or less "contradictory" than any other post here.

As we've all no doubt seen, just about every story you hear from the news is a CONTRADICTION.
A lot of it is because at this stage of the event, things are still evolving and changing. Then you add the movements of tide & winds, and the variables become many. NO ONE will EVER be able to give you a 100% def answer.

The very next days info mtg. had a different dispersion pattern which included Hawaii.
They also were waiting to get the reports from the experts at NRC folks that were still enroute, not the news channels.

My info came from a Military mtg., that was using a number of "professional" sources & experts, not NEWS stations. Of course we all know that the "news" is always 100% accurate, and they would never be wrong. LOL
I would suggest for the best info, go to the sites of the experts, and not base everything on news accounts.

Originally Posted by Andrew, Jr.

AJ,

Thank you for explaining this to me. I greatly appreciate it.

I am on information overload with the constant news. I am taking time off tomorrow to give myself a break.

Good Idea. Its true that we do get info overloaded after each event. And every station & grp tells it a different way. These news people are less about informing, and more about ratings just like any other TV show. During Katrina I actually watched CNN stage a backdrop to report from. WTH? Like it wasnt already bad enough?

I think we should try to keep some perspective. Perhaps when it gets too much, try prayer, meditation, or whatever your path uses. Japan and her people could sure use it.

Originally Posted by Diva

I haven't heard of any looting at all.....one of the things that reporters have noted time and again has been the patience of the Japanese.....and there was a report of a couple in their 70's.....getting their house ~ which still stood ~ back in order after it was flooded. Their faces were happy, they worked as they spoke with reporters. They wanted to get their house cleaned up quickly, so they could go and help others.

I don't wonder at all if this same thing happened here in the US, there are many who would go for the 'something for nothing' plan.

I honor and admire the Japanese people.

Its a lot about the culture they are raised in. They are a peaceful & spiritual people. Not as much of a me, me, me attitude.
It would be a joy to go there and help. Wow, it might even be appreciated.
Unlike getting shot at, cursed, and spit on for trying to help during disasters in the US.

I think we should all keep in mind, that the US has already been through bigger radiation releases than this one.
The releases of the early atom bomb tests, and 3 mile Island, and prob a few that we never even knew about.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Yes, I've heard this and at present, I just don't know what to think. I'm prone to believe the NRC and the IAEA over the Japanese government for one simple reason; neither the NRC or the IAEA gain anything from making things look worse than they already are and *no one* wants a panic. The Japanese government and TEPCO (Tokyo Electric Power Co.) have *every* reason to lie. They shouldn't lie but they certainly have a motivation to do so. The NRC is an objective observer in this, even more than the IAEA perhaps.

Tomorrow there will be overflights to assess the radioactivity over and surrounding the site. We'll have a better picture after that happens.

Cheers
Aj

I see. Yes, waiting for over flights. What is just hard about this is conflicting reports, but, given all that is happening at one time, and how fluid this is- makes sense.

And I am thinking that those at the plant sites, are rather busy and trying to get water in any way possible. Getting power back in to some degree is VERY GOOD NEWS!!

The recent photos of damage (containment vessels) at the plants are disturbing. Yet, we don't have any real comparative images, plus viewing them as "lay" people, really.

I know there has been a lot of criticism about evacuations further from the plant- but, Japan is a mess right now. Roads are covered with debris, gas is scarce, mass transit is upended, evacuation centers are full, food and water supplies are stretched. This is a country with a dense population under phenomenal infrastructure stress. People can't just be moved immediately!

Yup.... getting some power to that plant sounds good to me!

[dreadgeek]

Japanese Earthquake Update (17 March 17:55 UTC)

Japanese authorities have informed the IAEA that engineers were able to lay an external grid power line cable to unit 2. The operation was completed at 08:30 UTC.

They plan to reconnect power to unit 2 once the spraying of water on the unit 3 reactor building is completed.

The spraying of water on the unit 3 reactor building was temporarily stopped at 11:09 UTC (20:09 local time) of 17 March.

The IAEA continues to liaise with the Japanese authorities and is monitoring the situation as it evolves.

[AtLast]

I have been thinking a lot about Aj's statement earlier about robotics (started me thinking about how this could be so useful, if developed in ways to use with getting water in plants during a crisis like this). I found this article today-

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110317/sc_nm/us_quake_japan_robots
Japan a robot power everywhere except at nuclear plant


By Jon Herskovitz Jon Herskovitz – Thu Mar 17, 7:23 am ET
TOKYO (Reuters) – Japan may build robots to play the violin, run marathons and preside over weddings, but it has not deployed any of the machines to help repair its crippled reactors.

While robots are commonplace in the nuclear power industry, with EU engineers building one that can climb walls through radioactive fields, the electric power company running Japan's Fukushima Dai-ichi plant has not deployed any for the nuclear emergency.

Instead, its skeleton team has been given the unenviable and perhaps deadly task of cooling reactors and spent nuclear fuel on their own, only taking breaks to avoid over-exposure.

A science ministry official said a robot used to detect radiation levels is at the site of the accident in Fukushima, north of Tokyo, but nuclear safety agency official Hidehiko Nishiyama said: "We have no reports of any robots being used."

That robot would have come in handy early on Thursday when workers monitoring radiation had to back away from the plant because it was becoming too hot.

While Japan is renowned for its cutting edge technology, it also maintains an anachronistic element in its society that relies on humans for tasks that have given way to automation in many other parts of the world, such as operating elevators and warning motorists of road construction.

In one of Japan's worst nuclear accidents, two workers were killed in September 1999, when workers at a nuclear facility in Tokaimura, northeast of Tokyo, set off an uncontrolled nuclear chain reaction by using buckets to mix nuclear fuel in a lab.

Japan is a world leader in robots, using them to automate the most complicated manufacturing processes and to sift through rubble to look for victims in earthquakes.
Robots were also used after two infamous nuclear disasters -- Three Mile Island and Chernobyl, and will almost certainly be used at Fukushima for work in highly radioactive areas.

Kim Seungho, a nuclear official who engineered robots for South Korea's atomic power plants, said: "You have to design emergency robots for plants when they are being built so they can navigate corridors, steps and close valves."

[Related: What is acute radiation syndrome?]

The Fukushima plant was built in the 1970s, well before robots were able to work on sophisticated tasks.

Robots are in place in many nuclear plants for structured situations such as monitoring pipes and simple maintenance.

Kim, a deputy director in nuclear technology for the Korea Atomic Energy Research Institute, said budget constraints and denial have kept emergency robots out of many plants in his country and around the world.
"Nuclear plant operators don't liked to think about serious situations that are beyond human control," he said by telephone.

(Editing by Jeremy Laurence)

---------------------------
I say get the dame $ out there for robotic R&D in this industry!!

[Martina]

OK this sorta alarmed me although life has taught me not to worry too much about worst case scenarios. Still.

From a New York Times article:

The 1,479 spent fuel rod assemblies there include 548 that were removed from the reactor only in November and December to prepare the reactor for maintenance, and these may be emitting more heat than the older assemblies in other storage pools.

Even without recirculating water, it should take many days for the water in a storage pool to evaporate, nuclear engineers said. So the rapid evaporation and even boiling of water in the storage pools now is a mystery, raising the question of whether the pools may also be leaking.

Michael Friedlander, a former senior nuclear power plant operator who worked 13 years at three American reactors, said that storage pools typically had a liner of stainless steel three-eighths of an inch thick, and that they rested on reinforced concrete bases. So even if the liner ruptured, “unless the concrete was torn apart, there’s no place for the water to go,” he said.

Mr. Lahey said that much of the water may have sloshed out during the earthquake. Much smaller earthquakes in California have produced heavy water losses from sloshing at storage pools there, partly because the pools are located high in reactor buildings.

“It’s like being at the top of a flagpole, and once you start ground motion, you can easily slosh it,” he said.

When the water in a storage pool disappears, the fuel rods’ uranium continues to heat the rods’ zirconium cladding. This causes the zirconium to oxidize, or rust, and even catch fire. The spent fuel rods have little radioactive iodine, which has a half-life of eight days and has mostly disappeared through radioactive decay once fission stopped when the rods left the reactor cores. But the spent fuel rods are still loaded with cesium and strontium that can start to escape if the fuel rods burn.

One factor that might determine how serious the situation becomes is whether the uranium oxide pellets in the rods stay vertical even if the cladding burns off. This is possible because pellets sometimes become fused together while in the reactor. If the pellets stay standing up, then even with the water and zirconium gone, nuclear fission will not take place, Mr. Albrecht said.

But Tokyo Electric said this week that there was a chance of “recriticality” in the storage pools — that is, the uranium in the fuel rods could resume the fission that previously took place inside the reactor, spewing out radioactive byproducts.

Mr. Albrecht said this was very unlikely, but could happen if the stacks of pellets slumped over and became jumbled together on the floor of the storage pool.

Plant workers would then need to add water with lots of boron because the boron absorbs neutrons and interrupts nuclear chain reactions.

If a lot of fission occurs, which may happen only in an extreme case, the uranium would melt through anything underneath it. If it encounters water as it descends, a steam explosion could then scatter the molten uranium.

At Daiichi, each assembly has either 64 large fuel rods or 81 slightly smaller fuel rods. A typical fuel rod assembly has roughly 380 pounds of uranium.

One big worry for Japanese officials is that Reactor No. 3, the main target of the helicopters and water cannons on Thursday, uses a new and different fuel. It uses mixed oxides, or mox, which contains a mixture of uranium and plutonium, and can produce a more dangerous radioactive plume if scattered by fire or explosions. According to Tokyo Electric, 32 of the 514 fuel rod assemblies in the storage pond at Reactor No. 3 contain mox.