The Westboro Baptist Church - Hate Group or?

[Gráinne]

One could point to any number of atrocities carried out by any of the "big three" religions, far worse than Phelps. I know that's controversial to say, but Phelps (so far) has not killed anyone, nor exiled people, or tried to wipe out an entire group.

While I find them and their message repugnant, I disagree with a "hate speech" law. Who would decide what's hate speech and what isn't? Who would decide the penalties? We'd have a whole lot of people in prison if someone got the power to just lock them up for saying something they didn't like. I'd be scared to death much more of my speech watched by whatever political party was in power, than a tiny group carrying signs. China, for example. A beautiful country and people, but the most terrifying experience of my life.

I have every sympathy with the family of the serviceman who brought suit all the way to the Supreme Court. I too wish the Phelps would just go away. But if you silence one, you silence all.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by guihong

One could point to any number of atrocities carried out by any of the "big three" religions, far worse than Phelps. I know that's controversial to say, but Phelps (so far) has not killed anyone, nor exiled people, or tried to wipe out an entire group.

While I find them and their message repugnant, I disagree with a "hate speech" law. Who would decide what's hate speech and what isn't? Who would decide the penalties? We'd have a whole lot of people in prison if someone got the power to just lock them up for saying something they didn't like. I'd be scared to death much more of my speech watched by whatever political party was in power, than a tiny group carrying signs. China, for example. A beautiful country and people, but the most terrifying experience of my life.

I have every sympathy with the family of the serviceman who brought suit all the way to the Supreme Court. I too wish the Phelps would just go away. But if you silence one, you silence all.

Hate speech laws are in place in Canada and the European Union. Are you really saying that you're scared to death of what Canada and the EU might do to you but aren't particularly as concerned about the Westboro Church and other larger orgs like them? Do you not see how the tolerance of hate speech in the US just might have affected the current nature of LGBT rights in the US (same sex marriage, DADT, anti-descrimination laws etc.) compared with many other western nations that do implement hate speech laws?

Just thought I'd add some of the hate speech laws employed by some of the most liberal (and I would say some of the "most free") and tolerant nations in the world today. Source for everything below is good ol' wikipedia.

In Canada, advocating genocide or inciting hatred against any 'identifiable group' is an indictable offence under the Criminal Code of Canada with maximum prison terms of two to fourteen years. An 'identifiable group' is defined as 'any section of the public distinguished by colour, race, religion, ethnic origin or sexual orientation.' It makes exceptions for cases of statements of truth, and subjects of public debate and religious doctrine. The landmark judicial decision on the constitutionality of this law was R. v. Keegstra (1990)

Denmark prohibits hate speech, and defines it as publicly making statements that threaten, ridicule or hold in contempt a group due to race, skin colour, national or ethnic origin, faith or sexual orientation.

Finland prohibits hate speech, and defines it as publicly making statements that threaten or insult a national, racial, ethnic or religious group or a similar group.

France prohibits by its penal code and by its press laws public and private communication which is defamatory or insulting, or which incites discrimination, hatred, or violence against a person or a group of persons on account of place of origin, ethnicity or lack thereof, nationality, race, specific religion, sex, sexual orientation, or handicap. The law prohibits declarations that justify or deny crimes against humanity, for example, the Holocaust (Gayssot Act).

In Germany, Volksverhetzung ("Sedition") is a punishable offense under Section 130 of the Strafgesetzbuch (Germany's criminal code) and can lead to up to five years imprisonment. Section 130 makes it a crime to publicly incite hatred against parts of the population or to call for violent or arbitrary measures against them or to insult, maliciously slur or defame them in a manner violating their (constitutionally protected) human dignity. Thus for instance it is illegal to publicly call certain ethnic groups "maggots" or "freeloaders". Volksverhetzung is punishable in Germany even if committed abroad and even if committed by non-German citizens, if only the incitement of hatred takes effect within German territory, e.g. the seditious sentiment was expressed in German writ or speech and made accessible in Germany (German criminal code's Principle of Ubiquity, Section 9 §1 Alt. 3 and 4 of the Strafgesetzbuch).

In Iceland, the hate speech law is not confined to inciting hatred, as one can see from Article 233 a. in the Icelandic Penal Code, but includes simply expressing such hatred publicly:

Anyone who in a ridiculing, slanderous, insulting, threatening or any other manner publicly assaults a person or a group of people on the basis of their nationality, skin colour, race, religion or sexual orientation, shall be fined or jailed for up to 2 years. (The word "assault" in this context does not refer to physical violence, only to expressions of hatred.)

In Ireland, the right to free speech is guaranteed under the Constitution (Article 40.6.1.i). However, the Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred Act, proscribes words or behaviours which are "threatening, abusive or insulting and are intended or, having regard to all the circumstances, are likely to stir up hatred" against "a group of persons in the State or elsewhere on account of their race, colour, nationality, religion, ethnic or national origins, membership of the travelling community or sexual orientation."

The Dutch penal code prohibits both insulting a group (article 137c) and inciting hatred, discrimination or violence (article 137d). The definition of the offences as outlined in the penal code is as follows:

* Article 137c: He who publicly, orally, in writing or graphically, intentionally expresses himself insultingly regarding a group of people because of their race, their religion or their life philosophy, their heterosexual or homosexual orientation or their physical, psychological or mental disability, shall be punished by imprisonment of no more than a year or a monetary penalty of the third category.[17]
* Article 137d: He who publicly, orally, in writing or graphically, incites hatred against, discrimination of or violent action against person or belongings of people because of their race, their religion or their life philosophy, their gender, their heterosexual or homosexual orientation of their physical, psychological or mental disability, shall be punished by imprisonment of no more than a year or a monetary penalty of the third category.[18]

In January 2009, a court in Amsterdam ordered the prosecution of Geert Wilders, a Dutch Member of Parliament, for breaching articles 137c and 137d.[19] The trial is ongoing as of February 2011.

Norway prohibits hate speech, and defines it as publicly making statements that threaten or ridicule someone or that incite hatred, persecution or contempt for someone due to their skin colour, ethnic origin, homosexual life style or orientation or, religion or philosophy of life.

Sweden prohibits hate speech, and defines it as publicly making statements that threaten or express disrespect for an ethnic group or similar group regarding their race, skin colour, national or ethnic origin, faith or sexual orientation.

In Switzerland public discrimination or invoking to rancor against persons or a group of people because of their race, ethnicity, is getting penalized with a term of imprisonment until 3 years or a mulct. In 1934, the authorities of the Basel-Stadt canton criminalized anti-Jewish hate speech, e.g. the accusation of ritual murders, mostly in reaction against a pro-nazi antisemitic group and newspaper, the Volksbund.

[Gráinne]

OK, well, we obviously have different opinions, and I feel like mine isn't the "right" one. Back to the light posts I go.

[Rockinonahigh]

Westboro is a cult let by hate mongers who really beleave in what they do..try to breed more hate.Most are, as I hear are inbred to stregenthen the line of bigatry and hate.They also are just plane nuts,once I watched one of them talking to a reporter..the look on her face was like she had lost touch with the real world.The bloodshot eyes,angry ways he spoke of anything that didnt agree with there way of life..I expected her to stroke out with her next breath.In this country we have freedom of speach..but when it becone devisive as well as very hurt full and done with willfull intent to cause harm in any and all ways.They should be stoped as insagators of hate speach,instagteing a riot ..not to mention going against what this country stands for...treason is added.When they protest at a soulders funiral I peraonaly strongly wish they would be put on a plane then sent to a country where they dont have the ablity to do this awful retoric of theres.Since they do there best to go against what Americe stands for,let then see what its like to deal with goverments and people who wont take a moment ot call them out then pay the penalty for hate.The walls of hell are lined with people like westboro.

[Andrew, Jr.]

I really do think it is just a matter of time before someone takes matters in their own hands. Too many of our soldiers are coming home in body bags or wounded in someway. Someone who is talking & behaving at funerals like Phelps & his cult...I think the clock is ticking if you ask me.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I hope no one decides to take matters into their own hands with these types, they are smart enough to protest in a manner that is not only constitutional but orderly. Vigilante behaviours will only fatten up their bank and will allow them to deflect by being victims. Best way to handle protest the same way and keep them out of view and rev up them bikes so they are not heard.

[Andrew, Jr.]

I agree Lady Snow, but these are such different times. The public is very off now. Common sense seems to be un-common now.

[Luv]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I hope no one decides to take matters into their own hands with these types, they are smart enough to protest in a manner that is not only constitutional but orderly. Vigilante behaviours will only fatten up their bank and will allow them to deflect by being victims. Best way to handle protest the same way and keep them out of view and rev up them bikes so they are not heard.

They have been chased off several times..there are vid's on you tube