Do Businesses Have the Right to Refuse Service Based on Moral/Religious Objections?

[Random]

Just to play devils advocate...


You have a flower shop...

You have someone wanting to order table pieces... 100 of them, let's say...

They want the center pieces to have icons that you find offensive(insert the confederate flag or the swastica or some other sybol) as the main feature...

Do you take the order or do you refuse on principle?

If you refuse the order because it offends your principle or your belief system, then how can you deny someone else that right?

For me....

If I want the right to live my principles, then I have to extend the same privilage to someone who doesn't believe the same as I do...

UNLESS...

You take goverment money.... If you receive goverment money for your business... If you have a contract with my goverment, then you don't get to live your principles...

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Random

Just to play devils advocate...


You have a flower shop...

You have someone wanting to order table pieces... 100 of them, let's say...

They want the center pieces to have icons that you find offensive(insert the confederate flag or the swastica or some other sybol) as the main feature...

Do you take the order or do you refuse on principle?

If you refuse the order because it offends your principle or your belief system, then how can you deny someone else that right?

It would depend on which country I'm inhabiting. In Germany it is illegal to bear the swastika and to sell items depicting the swastika. So if I were living in Germany, no I would not sell that centre piece because I'd be committing an illegal act. On top of that, I agree with German law as far as the depiction of the National Socialist swastika (note, that the swastika is not only an NS symbol).

If I were in Canada, it is not illegal to sell an item depicting the swastika. I would sell it to them, whether the symbol itself offended me or not because I understand the difference between certain uses of that symbol and the inciting of hatred. It is, however, illegal to propagate hatred through speech, writing or visual representation, and so if any of the above occured in my establishment or were suggested in my establishment, then I would not sell it to them.

As I mentioned above, the swastika isn't only an NS symbol, but is also used in a number of eastern religions as a religious symbol, as well as in various European pagan religions as a religious symbol (though there is a difference between the NS swastika and that found in European pagan religions).

I'd say that same thing goes with the Confederate flag, in that I don't think that it can be deemed as exclusively a symbol of hatred, and so I would have no reason to refuse to sell an individual such a centre piece. Hell, I've seen tons of university students mount Confederate flags if only because they love Pantera, so I'm not that quick to be offended, lol.

But I might also argue that there is a flaw in your playing devil's advocate here. Do you really not see a difference between discrimination and "religious morals"? There is a reason why many nations have laws against intolerant groups and their propaganda. There is a marked difference between protecting the rights of visible or marked minorities and protecting the rights of those whose belief incites or promotes hatred, alienation or oppression of other groups purely on the basis of skin colour, ethnicity, nationality, sex or sexual orientation. If someone wanted me to provide them with an image that depicted a lynching or had "god hates fags" written on it, well I think there are very good reasons for there being laws against that and I'd have very good reasons to refuse them if I gave a damn about promoting a society that protects individuals from discrimination in all aspects of their life. It's not inherently wrong to say "god hates fags" or other homophobic remarks, but it has no place in a society that wants to protect its citizens from discrimination.

Basically, I think striving for the creation of a society free (or as close as possible to it) from discrimination takes precedence over personal inclinations. I might be offended by a Christian cross as a symbol of 2000 years of oppression, but I'm not going to deny Christians the right to enter my restaurant or flower shop or refuse their use of the symbol.

[Random]

Ender

I want to answer your post, but I have too much going through my head to do it justice right now...

I'll be back later

[Soon]

I woke up and kept thinking of this thread and remembered back in the day this story. It did happen.

I used to be friends with a couple--she is white and he is black. They have three children together. This was back in the early nineties.

They drove down to Florida (Disney) as a family and stopped for gas (Georgia, maybe?). The attendant saw their family and would not serve them. For real. Was that his right if he doesn't believe it is moral for blacks and whites to be together and have children b/c it is against his value system, his beliefs etc?

They drove to another gas station. But what if there wasn't one that was close? What if they had little gas left? Was it that business owner's right to refuse this family his services b/c he morally objects to their family? (I know legally he couldn't do that but he took a chance that they wouldn't persue it--and they didn't).


From what I understand, slavery/segregation/anti-miscegenation laws were largely based on people's personal value systems with a lot of biblical justifications. This owner just didn't morally agree with their type of family and refused them service.

This could happen to any of us couples. How is this ok?

However, some are agreeing that it would be fine, and within his rights, for that gas station owner to look at the composition of us as couples and families and agree that it is his right to deny us service based on our sexual orientation or gender identity.


Like Ender wrote, that is why anti-discrimination laws are in place (or have to be put in place) to prohibit this kind of intolerance and protect ALL people's access (including LGBT community) to services based on the equal human rights. It has been eye-opening, to me, that this idea of equal access to services and goods for ALL is not a wholly shared idea or goal in which to strive.

Being denied access to services b/c of someone's personal or religious beliefs can also encompass the already United States federal protected classes -- sexual orientation and gender identity are not, currently, a protected class. Would it be fine for a woman to be denied access to a private singing school (and shared that she is a church soloist to the owner) b/c the owner believes in the words within the Bible that a woman should remain silent in church?

I remain curious if people would support the removal of the current USA Federally protected classes (age, gender, creed, disability, race? i might be missing something) b/c, these categories, as well, could infringe upon a business owner's personal/religious beliefs.

[betenoire]

You know, maybe this is my Canadian perspective - because I know with the laws that are in place I am safe from ever being asked to do something SUPER heinous. But you know what? If I owned a bakery and some loser asked me to make him 100 cupcakes with little confederate flags on it - I'd do it. Because that's my job. And because making the cupcakes is not the same as getting a bad haircut and then attending the bigot hoe-down (how do you spell that anyway?) where the cupcakes will be consumed. It's just not.

In my line of work I have to provide services to people who are actively using drugs (like, I show up and the crack pipe is sitting on the table beside the chair - that's what I mean by actively) people who I know are abusing the system, and even people who I just find really distasteful in general. I don't get to refuse those services - because it's my job not my personal life. How I feel about the personalities and actions of the people of the people I support DOES NOT GET to effect how I do my job - and if it DID then I would be pretty shitty at my job and I wouldn't deserve to have the job that I have.

Even rapists and murderers get defense lawyers. That doesn't make the lawyer complicit in the rape or murder - it makes the lawyer a person who is doing her or his job.

[julieisafemme]

Ok but what if you make the 100 cupcakes and they are a huge hit and then the rest of the bigot brigade is beating down your door for more cupcakes with ever increasing demands for horribly offensive sweets?

The bakery owner is self-employed and not working as part of a system or for the state. If I work for someone else then I am under their values and morals. Would you work for the confederate flag making baker?

Originally Posted by betenoire

You know, maybe this is my Canadian perspective - because I know with the laws that are in place I am safe from ever being asked to do something SUPER heinous. But you know what? If I owned a bakery and some loser asked me to make him 100 cupcakes with little confederate flags on it - I'd do it. Because that's my job. And because making the cupcakes is not the same as getting a bad haircut and then attending the bigot hoe-down (how do you spell that anyway?) where the cupcakes will be consumed. It's just not.

In my line of work I have to provide services to people who are actively using drugs (like, I show up and the crack pipe is sitting on the table beside the chair - that's what I mean by actively) people who I know are abusing the system, and even people who I just find really distasteful in general. I don't get to refuse those services - because it's my job not my personal life. How I feel about the personalities and actions of the people of the people I support DOES NOT GET to effect how I do my job - and if it DID then I would be pretty shitty at my job and I wouldn't deserve to have the job that I have.

Even rapists and murderers get defense lawyers. That doesn't make the lawyer complicit in the rape or murder - it makes the lawyer a person who is doing her or his job.

[Soon]

What if there is one grocery store in a small town.


No food for us?



The far reaching consequences of allowing private businesses to turn away customers based on their moral/religious convictions is, to me, horrifying.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Ok but what if you make the 100 cupcakes and they are a huge hit and then the rest of the bigot brigade is beating down your door for more cupcakes with ever increasing demands for horribly offensive sweets?

The bakery owner is self-employed and not working as part of a system or for the state. If I work for someone else then I am under their values and morals. Would you work for the confederate flag making baker?

Firstly - I don't understand why some of you are insisting on equating being gay with belonging to a hate group. For the sake of your own self-esteem I really do hope that you know that it's different.

Secondly - Slippery slope argument.

Thirdly - I want to know, then, since you think it's okay to refuse services to people just for being gay - do you think that there should be no protected classes of people at all? Do you think that business owners should get to turn people away for being Asian? Hindu? I know Rand Paul thinks that business owners should get to do that, so it's not a totally far-fetched fringe notion.

And if you don't think that business owners should be able to turn people away because of their race or their religion - why do you think it's okay to turn people away because of their sexual orientation?

[julieisafemme]

I do understand the difference and I never said it was ok for anyone to refuse service to someone because they are gay. I don't see where anyone is equating being gay with belonging to a hate group. I think people might be using that to pose the question about something that is really intolerable to us as a group as us being gay might be to another group.

The place we are talking about in Canada where this happened already has a law that says what the flower shop owner did is illegal? Is that correct? What she did is against the law. So whether I or anyone else thinks she has the right to do it or not it is against the law.

Yes Rand Paul says that and a lot of other things and represents that part of American culture that is always at odds with and suspicious of government. It is not far fetched or fringe. It is pretty mainstream. I think, based on what Suebee said, Canadians have a different view of their government?

This whole conversation is a slippery slope. The example I used in my first post was the only acceptable use of religion based refusal of service I could envision. Kosher establishment, non-kosher food brought in, please leave immediately. The person could dump the food or drink and then come back in and be served. Like you said you can't take the gay off.

I would not want to serve the confederate flag cupcake person. Others might not want to serve me.

Originally Posted by betenoire

Firstly - I don't understand why some of you are insisting on equating being gay with belonging to a hate group. For the sake of your own self-esteem I really do hope that you know that it's different.

Secondly - Slippery slope argument.

Thirdly - I want to know, then, since you think it's okay to refuse services to people just for being gay - do you think that there should be no protected classes of people at all? Do you think that business owners should get to turn people away for being Asian? Hindu? I know Rand Paul thinks that business owners should get to do that, so it's not a totally far-fetched fringe notion.

And if you don't think that business owners should be able to turn people away because of their race or their religion - why do you think it's okay to turn people away because of their sexual orientation?