Do Businesses Have the Right to Refuse Service Based on Moral/Religious Objections?

Martina · 03-19-2011, 10:16 PM

It is true that corporations' desire for gay people's money and the talents of gay folks as employees has created faster change than legal interventions would have. Still we need legal protections.

betenoire · 03-19-2011, 11:06 PM

Toughy,

I gotta give you mad props for answering. Every other person who was opposed to LGBT folks becoming a protect class who I asked if they thought there should be no protected classes refused to answer. (Not sure why?)

That's what I like about you. Unafraid to say something that could potentially be unpopular or misunderstood takes guts. I like guts. I like your guts.

I'm not going to lie, I don't know a whole hell of a lot about the aftermath of the Civil Rights Act. Because I'm not American, I'm young enough that I wasn't alive when it happened, and because I'm White. Fuck, I'll own that. I've got that very White tendency to not know how things actually are - I try, but when it boils down to it I'm still pretty ignorant.

But, you know, not so ignorant that I don't get that there was backlash and is backlash. I also get that if "sexual orientation" becomes a protected class that there will be backlash to that too - but baby the times are a changin' and I want to believe that the immediate ugly wouldn't be as bad now as it was then.

And to me backlash (or the potential that there will be backlash) isn't reason enough to not want protection for my queer friends in the US.

In Canada sexual orientation was added to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms in 1995, and in 96 we were added to the Human Rights Act. The 90s were wicked-heavy on culture wars issues (which I guess was our backlash) but I can't see any evidence that becoming protected has harmed my community in any way.

adorable · 03-20-2011, 06:30 AM

Having a protected class is important for me personally because it draws attention to the bigger issue.

My grandfather is 82 years old. He is prejudice and racist. Not according to him mind you. One thing that I've always found very interesting that he said is that "if blacks would just assimilate they wouldn't have all these problems."

Well, alrighty! Why didn't black people just think of that? He hated the Irish and Italians just as much. Because when he was little, most of the Italians and Irish in our town were immigrants that couldn't speak English well. As a town, everyone hated them. They were different. But, goes my grandfather's argument, they assimilated so now no one hates the Italians and Irish anymore.

He did drop out of school in the 3rd grade.

Black people and hispanics cannot "assimilate." Arabs and, I would argue, Jews struggle too. Neither can most gays, queers, fags, dykes, lesbians or the rest of our little rainbow. They stand out. This is where a protected class matters. Is there a backlash? Sure. The south is still a very different place then the north.

Over time, things slowly change because there is no government tolerance of hate. When any government has a policy of hate and discrimination or there is a silence on such things, obscene things are allowed to happen. WWII Germany is a good example. Segregation in this country is too. Lynching, slavery, murder - all things bad that were allowed by the government. Don't ask don't tell, outward discrimination towards of all people, our military. Sexual harassment of women at work or flat out refusing to hire women...There are a million examples but it's too early for me to think of more right now.

There was a time when the KKK was a powerhouse in this country. Today? They are more of an annoyance during their occasional march. They were marginalized because as a country we decided to move past it. The way we do that is by passing laws that unify us against stupidity. Forcing the issue, makes it an actual issue that people can no longer deny. It also makes crime and discrimination against a protected class EXPENSIVE. Once it's not easy to discriminate, companies change their policies and people's attitudes slowly change.

Sloooowly. There is still prejudice, discrimination, hate, and ignorance. With a protected class, we say "These people here, THESE people, they belong to us - leave them alone." There are laws. It's not enough. Attitudes change slowly over generations only with constant reminders from the government (which WE are a part of.) The government is more then an annoying bureaucracy it's also a collective majority with the power to change lives through legislation.

It does and has changed all of our lives. We CAN march. We CAN vote. We CAN work. We CAN own property. And if anyone questions our right to do that we CAN sue the shit out of them. People CAN be charged with hate crimes for hurting one of us.

I personally don't care if someone doesn't like me because I'm queer. We can't force people to like each other. But I do care very much that the government doesn't discriminate against me and that they not send a message that it's ok for others to do the same. I can "assimilate" until I go apply for a marriage license, join the army, end up in the hospital, want a raise, or want to adopt. Blacks and Hispanics, have no problem getting marriage licenses as long as their straight, but have a much harder time getting a job regardless of sexual orientation.

As minority groups we are not all in the same place at the same time but we are all in the same boat. Any in roads help us all, and setbacks hurt us all.

Chancie · 03-20-2011, 06:48 AM

I am perfectly comfortable refusing my personal help or services to a someone with whom I have a serious ideological difference.

As a public school teacher,

I am morally and legally obligated to extend my professional efforts to all of my students, regardless of their ill thought out offensive opinions.

But, I will not extend myself to a student who is being disciplined for calling someone a 'dyke' or a 'nigger' the way I would extend myself to a student who was in trouble for failing a math test.

I would certainly withhold my expertise from someone who wished to hire me privately.

Toughy · 03-20-2011, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betenoire

Toughy,

I gotta give you mad props for answering. Every other person who was opposed to LGBT folks becoming a protect class who I asked if they thought there should be no protected classes refused to answer. (Not sure why?)

That's what I like about you. Unafraid to say something that could potentially be unpopular or misunderstood takes guts. I like guts. I like your guts.

I'm not going to lie, I don't know a whole hell of a lot about the aftermath of the Civil Rights Act. Because I'm not American, I'm young enough that I wasn't alive when it happened, and because I'm White. Fuck, I'll own that. I've got that very White tendency to not know how things actually are - I try, but when it boils down to it I'm still pretty ignorant.

But, you know, not so ignorant that I don't get that there was backlash and is backlash. I also get that if "sexual orientation" becomes a protected class that there will be backlash to that too - but baby the times are a changin' and I want to believe that the immediate ugly wouldn't be as bad now as it was then.

And to me backlash (or the potential that there will be backlash) isn't reason enough to not want protection for my queer friends in the US.

In Canada sexual orientation was added to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms in 1995, and in 96 we were added to the Human Rights Act. The 90s were wicked-heavy on culture wars issues (which I guess was our backlash) but I can't see any evidence that becoming protected has harmed my community in any way.

Under our current system, there is no choice but to have protected classes and I support having protected classes.

I was just trying to get at the problem in a different way, which ain't ever gonna happen. Thinking outside the box if you will.

I do not believe in assimilation..........this country should not be a melting pot.......it should be a salad bowl. Our differences make us stronger..........assimilation makes us weaker.

(I feel the same way about you)

View Poll Results: Do Business Owners Have the Right to Refuse Service Due to Moral/Religious Objections?
No	15	25.00%
Yes	38	63.33%
Unsure/Maybe/Other	7	11.67%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

03-19-2011, 11:06 PM	#2
betenoire Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Satan in a Sunday Hat Preferred Pronoun?: Maow Relationship Status: Married Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: The Chemical Valley Posts: 4,086 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 3,312 Thanked 8,739 Times in 2,566 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	Toughy, I gotta give you mad props for answering. Every other person who was opposed to LGBT folks becoming a protect class who I asked if they thought there should be no protected classes refused to answer. (Not sure why?) That's what I like about you. Unafraid to say something that could potentially be unpopular or misunderstood takes guts. I like guts. I like your guts. I'm not going to lie, I don't know a whole hell of a lot about the aftermath of the Civil Rights Act. Because I'm not American, I'm young enough that I wasn't alive when it happened, and because I'm White. Fuck, I'll own that. I've got that very White tendency to not know how things actually are - I try, but when it boils down to it I'm still pretty ignorant. But, you know, not so ignorant that I don't get that there was backlash and is backlash. I also get that if "sexual orientation" becomes a protected class that there will be backlash to that too - but baby the times are a changin' and I want to believe that the immediate ugly wouldn't be as bad now as it was then. And to me backlash (or the potential that there will be backlash) isn't reason enough to not want protection for my queer friends in the US. In Canada sexual orientation was added to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms in 1995, and in 96 we were added to the Human Rights Act. The 90s were wicked-heavy on culture wars issues (which I guess was our backlash) but I can't see any evidence that becoming protected has harmed my community in any way. __________________ bête noire \bet-NWAHR\, noun: One that is particularly disliked or that is to be avoided.

03-19-2011, 10:16 PM	#1
Martina Senior Member How Do You Identify?: * Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: * Posts: 4,999 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 13,409 Thanked 18,284 Times in 4,166 Posts Rep Power: 21474854	It is true that corporations' desire for gay people's money and the talents of gay folks as employees has created faster change than legal interventions would have. Still we need legal protections.

03-20-2011, 06:30 AM	#3
adorable Member How Do You Identify?: Sarcastically Preferred Pronoun?: She Relationship Status: Unavailable Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Home of the Yankee's Posts: 752 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,708 Thanked 2,644 Times in 590 Posts Rep Power: 12725119	Having a protected class is important for me personally because it draws attention to the bigger issue. My grandfather is 82 years old. He is prejudice and racist. Not according to him mind you. One thing that I've always found very interesting that he said is that "if blacks would just assimilate they wouldn't have all these problems." Well, alrighty! Why didn't black people just think of that? He hated the Irish and Italians just as much. Because when he was little, most of the Italians and Irish in our town were immigrants that couldn't speak English well. As a town, everyone hated them. They were different. But, goes my grandfather's argument, they assimilated so now no one hates the Italians and Irish anymore. He did drop out of school in the 3rd grade. Black people and hispanics cannot "assimilate." Arabs and, I would argue, Jews struggle too. Neither can most gays, queers, fags, dykes, lesbians or the rest of our little rainbow. They stand out. This is where a protected class matters. Is there a backlash? Sure. The south is still a very different place then the north. Over time, things slowly change because there is no government tolerance of hate. When any government has a policy of hate and discrimination or there is a silence on such things, obscene things are allowed to happen. WWII Germany is a good example. Segregation in this country is too. Lynching, slavery, murder - all things bad that were allowed by the government. Don't ask don't tell, outward discrimination towards of all people, our military. Sexual harassment of women at work or flat out refusing to hire women...There are a million examples but it's too early for me to think of more right now. There was a time when the KKK was a powerhouse in this country. Today? They are more of an annoyance during their occasional march. They were marginalized because as a country we decided to move past it. The way we do that is by passing laws that unify us against stupidity. Forcing the issue, makes it an actual issue that people can no longer deny. It also makes crime and discrimination against a protected class EXPENSIVE. Once it's not easy to discriminate, companies change their policies and people's attitudes slowly change. Sloooowly. There is still prejudice, discrimination, hate, and ignorance. With a protected class, we say "These people here, THESE people, they belong to us - leave them alone." There are laws. It's not enough. Attitudes change slowly over generations only with constant reminders from the government (which WE are a part of.) The government is more then an annoying bureaucracy it's also a collective majority with the power to change lives through legislation. It does and has changed all of our lives. We CAN march. We CAN vote. We CAN work. We CAN own property. And if anyone questions our right to do that we CAN sue the shit out of them. People CAN be charged with hate crimes for hurting one of us. I personally don't care if someone doesn't like me because I'm queer. We can't force people to like each other. But I do care very much that the government doesn't discriminate against me and that they not send a message that it's ok for others to do the same. I can "assimilate" until I go apply for a marriage license, join the army, end up in the hospital, want a raise, or want to adopt. Blacks and Hispanics, have no problem getting marriage licenses as long as their straight, but have a much harder time getting a job regardless of sexual orientation. As minority groups we are not all in the same place at the same time but we are all in the same boat. Any in roads help us all, and setbacks hurt us all.

03-20-2011, 06:48 AM	#4
Chancie Senior Member How Do You Identify?: queer femme-inist Relationship Status: I'm lucky. Join Date: May 2010 Location: Western Mass Posts: 3,774 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,518 Thanked 14,540 Times in 2,744 Posts Rep Power: 21474855	I am perfectly comfortable refusing my personal help or services to a someone with whom I have a serious ideological difference. As a public school teacher, I am morally and legally obligated to extend my professional efforts to all of my students, regardless of their ill thought out offensive opinions. But, I will not extend myself to a student who is being disciplined for calling someone a 'dyke' or a 'nigger' the way I would extend myself to a student who was in trouble for failing a math test. I would certainly withhold my expertise from someone who wished to hire me privately.